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Here's my controversial take on DS9: outside of some specific episodes that stood out as bad (sup space Irish, weird Cool Hand Luke meets strawman version of Nietzsche commune, O'Brien's daughter falling in a time portal, and "Profit and Lace") I generally enjoyed everything about it, and while the pacing on the finale was a little weird I still had a good time watching it all play out. Yeah even the Bajoran religious stuff.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:39
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| # ? May 29, 2024 11:32 |
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Space Irish was TNG
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Jul 27, 2017 06:45
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WampaLord posted:Space Irish was TNG DS9 made O'Brien encounter a loving leprechaun.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:53
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Duckbag posted:Incredibly bad opinions aside, B5's arc is sluggish and frustrating. I spent like two seasons waiting for the Shadows to do something and got bored with it. JMS is a good writer, but he read way too much LOTR and the prophesies and cosmic woo got way worse than DS9 ever did. Like the episode where a dude shows up who is a literal knight questing for the Holy Grail. It's not even a bad story, but I couldn't help thinking "wtf is this" the whole time. I'm fine with sci-fi shows having a "mythology," but poo poo like that is taking things a bit far imo. The G'Kar and Londo stuff is fantastic, JMS having his OCs with his same initials reenact LotR less so.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:54
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shadok posted:DS9 made O'Brien encounter a loving leprechaun. That's a mean way to talk about Nog!
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Jul 27, 2017 06:55
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WampaLord posted:Space Irish was TNG No, I meant "Sanctuary," loose metaphorical as opposed to literal Space Irish.
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Jul 27, 2017 07:05
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shadok posted:DS9 made O'Brien encounter a loving leprechaun. quote:Michael Piller recalled his modifications to the script to placate Meaney: "We needed a reason for it to be happening and we came up with the idea that O'Brien would be telling a bedtime story about a leprechaun. We had the script written, and Colm Meaney called Rick [Berman] and said, 'Every Irish actor I know has worked his entire life to overcome the stereotype of Irish people and leprechauns. It's really racist, and I don't want to do it'. We had no idea there was any sensitivity to leprechauns in the Irish culture and certainly we did not want to force Colm Meaney to act with a leprechaun, but what the hell do you do after you've got a whole story structured around a leprechaun stealing a child? Well, we went through story tales and Robert [Hewitt Wolfe] came in with Rumpelstiltskin, and we went by it at least once, maybe twice, because Rumpelstiltskin wasn't exactly the same thing and wouldn't work in the structure we had. When I finally sat down to rewrite it, I said, 'Okay, Rumpelstiltskin – let's see where it goes'. It was one of those scripts where I had no idea how to resolve it or where it was going to go. I wrote each scene to see if it worked and had fun with it". (Captains' Logs Supplemental - The Unauthorized Guide to the New Trek Voyages, p 53) 
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Jul 27, 2017 07:09
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Baronjutter posted:I've always been curious what the galactic community of god-beings is like. The Q are just seemingly one of many god-like forces that they've encountered. Do all the different god-beings hang out? Do they have turf or agreements on who can meddle with what? Closest I ever saw to that was a Star Trek Online event where a Q offhandedly mentions they basically stay away from each other and the Q don't mess with Bajor and the wormhole (much). I always did wonder if a Changeling who actually made effort to explore the upper limits of their shapeshifting abilities might become a transcendent space god, or at least powerful enough to wreck Borg. Laas seemed to be more skilled at it than most, probably because the Founders spend all their time as an ocean and Odo is, by Changeling standards, far more interested in socialising.
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Jul 27, 2017 07:09
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shadok posted:Sorry, I love both of them and I think that DS9 is better but I strongly disagree. JMS had a pretty detailed story planned from the beginning, no matter how many changes he had to make to adapt to the reality of TV (ie. firing the male lead after season 1). DS9 had no plan when they started and developed their story season by season. Ron Moore was involved, and he tends to make poo poo up as he goes along.
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Jul 27, 2017 07:11
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R-Type posted:Ron Moore was involved, and he tends to make poo poo up as he goes along. Ah so he's one of those guys. A "writer".
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Jul 27, 2017 07:15
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B5 is a hell of an achievement for a five-season long series that was produced incredibly cheaply by modern TV standards. JMS is generally a good writer (I'd probably put him in the same general category as a Peter David), but I think a lot of people give him too much credit -- dude's not a mastermind of the genre or anything, but he is seen as being very good because the average quality of sci-fi TV on the whole is generally below average. His true strength lies in being a good producer.
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Jul 27, 2017 07:20
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R-Type posted:Ron Moore was involved, and he tends to make poo poo up as he goes along. I just went looking and the BSG thread is archived so this seems as good a place as any to post this. Ron Moore last month talking about the Cylon plan: https://youtu.be/a5soKh1Iiw8?t=1h11m26s
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Jul 27, 2017 08:01
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I just rewatched Thine Own Self and holy poo poo did they just promote loving Troi higher than Data?
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Jul 27, 2017 08:55
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cheetah7071 posted:I just rewatched Thine Own Self and holy poo poo did they just promote loving Troi higher than Data? Hahahahahahaha Data doesn't seek out promotions, though, so I can handwave it, but when you put it like that it's really funny.
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Jul 27, 2017 09:00
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I just watched I, Borg and they hosed up slightly by having him say "I" several scenes before his big encounter with Picard. Oops  What a fantastic episode though.
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Jul 27, 2017 09:49
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:If you're considering DS9 on the merits of the characters, I would again encourage you to give Babylon 5 an honest shot. DS9 is Trek getting its feet wet with serial storytelling and it does have strong characters, but B5 is the real deal for both. Definitely less polished on the production side at first, but in terms of especially characters and their arcs, the creator had years of lead time to hammer everything out. B5 is basically the beginning of serialized storytelling on American TV, also. Arglebargle III posted:DS9 handles its overall story arc waaaay better than B5 and that is an incontrovertible statement. B5 got its season order hosed with. This is the weirdest opinion you've ever had, I don't even know where to begin parsing it. I'd say B5 still has the most well thought out and coherent story arc of any TV series made, not counting like six episode miniseries things. Especially on a rewatch there is so much being layered in there that you don't notice the first time. Season 1 is vastly better the second time through since you can see all the groundwork being built.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:08
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I haven't watched B5, but the idea that DS9's finale is "dumb" is ridiculous.corn in the bible posted:the finale of ds9 is dumb as hell, it's dumb as hell 
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Jul 27, 2017 10:11
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Grand Fromage posted:B5 is basically the beginning of serialized storytelling on American TV, also.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:11
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Do soap operas have story arcs? I've never seen one and don't really know anything about them, but I thought they were just the same things over and over endlessly.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:19
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Grand Fromage posted:Do soap operas have story arcs? I've never seen one and don't really know anything about them, but I thought they were just the same things over and over endlessly. Yes, it's just that those story arcs tend to be repeated with different characters over and over and over again for decades.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:19
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Drone posted:Yes, it's just that those story arcs tend to be repeated with different characters over and over and over again for decades. Ah, okay. I thought the fact that those soaps have been on for ages meant they clearly didn't have endings.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:21
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Grand Fromage posted:Do soap operas have story arcs? I've never seen one and don't really know anything about them, but I thought they were just the same things over and over endlessly. For some strange reason. It's weird. Anyway even in the nerd genres there was Dark Shadows.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:26
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WampaLord posted:I haven't watched B5, but the idea that DS9's finale is "dumb" is ridiculous. That's his posting schtick. He comes into a thread, makes a lovely 'controversial' post and then leaves again. He did it recently in the Doctor Who thread.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:33
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Grand Fromage posted:Ah, okay. I thought the fact that those soaps have been on for ages meant they clearly didn't have endings. Just because they don't have clear series endings doesn't mean there aren't story arcs. Soap operas have spawned an entire field of weekly publications dedicated to catching people up on what happened in recent episodes in case they've missed one. Take a look at the checkout line of your nearest grocery store.
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Jul 27, 2017 11:08
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Also also, there's a reason it's called space opera.
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Jul 27, 2017 11:16
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Drone posted:Just because they don't have clear series endings doesn't mean there aren't story arcs. Soap operas have spawned an entire field of weekly publications dedicated to catching people up on what happened in recent episodes in case they've missed one. Take a look at the checkout line of your nearest grocery store. It's why I'm asking the question, I don't know much about them. I wouldn't consider a show without an ending to be the same kind of thing as a series that tells a specific story and ends, though.
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Jul 27, 2017 11:30
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Soap operas usually have relatively low budgets and go on forever, space operas are expensive for TV and go season by season. I don't think networks often show soap opera repeats unless the schedule is absolutely dire, since they have a new one every weekday.
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Jul 27, 2017 12:07
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Duckbag posted:Also also, there's a reason it's called space opera. Um. I didn't think that's because it's a reference to soap operas though? More like actual operas? Like how "soap opera" was a derogatory term referring to a story sponsored by soap commercials
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Jul 27, 2017 12:47
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Data Graham posted:Um. I didn't think that's because it's a reference to soap operas though? More like actual operas? Right. They were called soap operas because back in the radio days they existed to basically fill time between soap commercials.
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Jul 27, 2017 12:51
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Data Graham posted:Um. I didn't think that's because it's a reference to soap operas though? More like actual operas? No, it is a reference to soap opera: "space opera" was coined as a pejorative for cliche-ridden, overwrought, melodramatic rocket-ship stories, in the same way as soap opera was for cliche-ridden, overwrought, melodramatic radio plays selling household goods. It didn't start to become a more positive term until Star Wars. Here's the fanzine page where the term was coined in Jan 1941: 
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Jul 27, 2017 12:56
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B5 season 1 is painfully bad, it slow rolls its plot for two seasons and then goes "Oh poo poo we're getting canceled" and throws the whole show into fast forward. Then oops we're not canceled after all and they have a pointless last season with the lead gone and new annoying characters. And the finale is like a bad short story that could be from any anthology. That's 3/5 seasons that people can even. recommend watching. You guys are looking back through some thick rose glasses. Seasons 2 and 3 are quite good but 4 suffers from rushing and 5 is worse than 1 imo. Like you can praise the theoretical structure of the show but it got hosed up in production. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 13:02
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I rewatched it recently. Season 1 isn't that bad, and the cancellation only came late in season 4. Everything up to the middle or so of S4 is as planned. Then he compressed several episodes and the first several of season 5 are new creations to fill in the gap. The first third/half of S5 is the only part of the show with any real changes due to cancelling then not being cancelled. And the lead isn't gone in S5? Ivanova is the only character not there. Season 1 is about half bad, but 2-4 is all gold except a couple bad episodes, and the last 60% of 5 is great.
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Jul 27, 2017 13:10
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Didn't the guy who play the main character in Season 1 have some crippling mental illness or something too? I remember liking him even if he was a bit hokey and then he was replaced before things could get good.
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Jul 27, 2017 13:12
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Yeah, O'Hare was severely mentally ill and had to leave the show because of it. He asked everyone to keep it secret until after his death.
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Jul 27, 2017 13:16
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Duckbag posted:Incredibly bad opinions aside, B5's arc is sluggish and frustrating. I spent like two seasons waiting for the Shadows to do something and got bored with it. JMS is a good writer, but he read way too much LOTR and the prophesies and cosmic woo got way worse than DS9 ever did. Like the episode where a dude shows up who is a literal knight questing for the Holy Grail. It's not even a bad story, but I couldn't help thinking "wtf is this" the whole time. I'm fine with sci-fi shows having a "mythology," but poo poo like that is taking things a bit far imo. I think this is its strength. If B5 were made today the Shadow threat would be introduced in episode 1, and the attacks would begin no later than a half dozen episodes in - if I'm being generous. Giving it time to breathe does wonders for the characters and world building. The way it works out with season 1 being more the mystery of the end of the Earth-Minbari war and Sinclair's PTSD, before the main threat is anything but rumbling on the horizon, would never work today and if you're accustomed to how it is today it can seem slow. But DS9 is even slower, so I can't imagine knocking one but not both on that score.
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Jul 27, 2017 13:32
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Counterpoint: if B5 were made today, there would no longer be the studio insistence on 26-episode seasons (well, 22 in the case of Babylon 5). HBO or SyFy or whatever would let Straczynski just make 10- or 12-episode seasons and all the filler and monster-of-the-week episodes would fall away, just leaving the good stuff without feeling rushed. Season 1 in particular suffers from this.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:09
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The_Doctor posted:That's his posting schtick. He comes into a thread, makes a lovely 'controversial' post and then leaves again. He did it recently in the Doctor Who thread. No, I found the prophet stuff to be boring and not very good, and the finale involves quite a bit of that. Sisko leaving his son at all is real messed up imo
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Jul 27, 2017 14:21
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I watched bits of Bab5 when it was on TV, but never the whole thing. Is it a lot like Trek where even the bad episodes often have good moments or character growth or is a lot of S1 skippable. I'm afraid that with limited viewing time I will get turned off and never get to later seasons.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:22
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corn in the bible posted:No, I found the prophet stuff to be boring and not very good, and the finale involves quite a bit of that. Sisko leaving his son at all is real messed up imo He is coming back and Jake is like 25 at that point, although it's lovely for the baby.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:34
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| # ? May 29, 2024 11:32 |
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trigger warning: i like the prophets
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Jul 27, 2017 14:38
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