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Jimbozig posted:Ever since 4e's PHB2 in 2009, this might be the single most played-out trope in roleplaying. It probably isn't even in the top 10,000 played out RPG tropes and I bet if you brought it to the average gaming table you'd instantly get rolled eyes and sarcastic comments rather than "oh wow yeah that's rad." Being able to defeat opponents with words as opposed to or in addition to sharp bits of metal isn't anywhere near played out enough in the TRPG field, and I can't imagine being the sort of person that looks at that and goes "ugh, not this poo poo again."
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Jul 27, 2017 07:10
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Jimbozig posted:Ever since 4e's PHB2 in 2009, this might be the single most played-out trope in roleplaying. I'd rather someone show up with a dual-wielding drow ranger than another "dude who lays down burns so sick the enemy literally dies." At least the ranger might do something novel with their trope. Half the groups around here would argue that doesn't even make sense so you can't do it, of course it doesn't work like that it just doesn't make sense okay
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Jul 27, 2017 07:21
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At any rate this month has taken a pretty hefty toll on my Kickstarting Games I Think Look Rad And Actually Reputable budget. Fragged Empire, The Spire, Legacy 2E, and now Spellbound Kingdoms: Arcana. Kinda hoping nobody makes any cool-sounding games next month tbh.
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Jul 27, 2017 07:24
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I got the copy of massive darkness I rather foolishly backed. It sure comes with a lot of stuff in a giant box and the quality looks pretty reasonable on the sculpts, but not sure about the gameplay
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Jul 27, 2017 09:53
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Jimbozig posted:Ever since 4e's PHB2 in 2009, this might be the single most played-out trope in roleplaying. I'd rather someone show up with a dual-wielding drow ranger than another "dude who lays down burns so sick the enemy literally dies." At least the ranger might do something novel with their trope. If it helps, it's a perfectly valid character choice in Spellbound Kingdoms to play a barbarian who fights using hardened severed heads as boxing gloves. "Destroying a person with words" is also a big deal in Spellbound Kingdoms because PCs and major NPCs will have Inspiration stats high enough that they can't be killed. The narrative of reality will adjust itself to prevent that and that's a known fact in-universe. It's easiest to undermine Inspirations in social combat, but of course you'll have to figure out your enemy's Inspirations through subterfuge, magic, and tapping other resources first. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 12:16
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Imagine thinking "The words of a poet or wise man having mythical weight and do more damage to a man than crude steel given shape" is either a thing that originated in the fourth edition of dungeons and dragons or rad as all gently caress. Who doesn't want to do a Bres on your enemies and ruining them forever with the strength of your ground breaking innovations in satire.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:30
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Honestly the best version of that power is the one that showed up in Double Cross DX, just because the terrible pun name they gave it was -perfect-. "Offensive Language".
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Jul 27, 2017 14:33
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Imagine not wanting every tabletop RPG to allow you to play as the ultimate hustler.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:37
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^^^^^ See, that poo poo will never get played out because it's not gimmicky or even very specific. Playing a close combat fighter won't get stale because it's so broad and you can go in a million directions with it, but playing a luchador specifically absolutely could get stale if people did it often enough.Kai Tave posted:It probably isn't even in the top 10,000 played out RPG tropes and I bet if you brought it to the average gaming table you'd instantly get rolled eyes and sarcastic comments rather than "oh wow yeah that's rad." Being able to defeat opponents with words as opposed to or in addition to sharp bits of metal isn't anywhere near played out enough in the TRPG field, and I can't imagine being the sort of person that looks at that and goes "ugh, not this poo poo again." Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 14:38
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Really, what makes social combat shine in Spellbound Kingdoms is that it's a core gameplay element. You literally cannot kill most of the villains without ruining their lives first. In a setting like that, Killing Poems are less neat party trick and more natural extension of the game's themes.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:41
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Jimbozig posted:Ever since 4e's PHB2 in 2009, this might be the single most played-out trope in roleplaying. I'd rather someone show up with a dual-wielding drow ranger than another "dude who lays down burns so sick the enemy literally dies." At least the ranger might do something novel with their trope. I dunno, sounds like a perfect trope for a generation raised believing the way to win a fight is to post memes and call other people "cucks." Sounds like ideal fantasy fulfillment to me.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:42
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Jimbozig posted:^^^^^ See, that poo poo will never get played out because it's not gimmicky or even very specific. Playing a close combat fighter won't get stale because it's so broad and you can go in a million directions with it, but playing a luchador specifically absolutely could get stale if people did it often enough. 
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Jul 27, 2017 14:46
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Peas and Rice posted:I dunno, sounds like a perfect trope for a generation raised believing the way to win a fight is to post memes and call other people "cucks." Sounds like ideal fantasy fulfillment to me. A "Linguistic Killshot", if you will.
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Jul 27, 2017 14:47
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Jimbozig posted:^^^^^ See, that poo poo will never get played out because it's not gimmicky or even very specific. Playing a close combat fighter won't get stale because it's so broad and you can go in a million directions with it, but playing a luchador specifically absolutely could get stale if people did it often enough. You should probably check out Spellbound Kingdoms, though. There are some specific mechanisms in it that you may find inspiring.
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Jul 27, 2017 15:15
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homullus posted:You should probably check out Spellbound Kingdoms, though. There are some specific mechanisms in it that you may find inspiring. Cool, I will. I've only got a couple of RPGs in my reading queue right now, so I can add that one on and get to it pretty soon.
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Jul 27, 2017 15:36
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Jimbozig posted:^^^^^ See, that poo poo will never get played out because it's not gimmicky or even very specific. Playing a close combat fighter won't get stale because it's so broad and you can go in a million directions with it, but playing a luchador specifically absolutely could get stale if people did it often enough. So playing a fighter doesn't get old because you can use your imagination out a spin on the concept, but playing someone who fights with words is played out and stale because you CAN'T put a spin on it because...???
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Jul 27, 2017 16:31
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The next meta-step is to defeat your enemies by successfully arguing that they should be defeatable by social combat.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:35
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My group's trying out dread this next weekend and I'm trying to see if I can somehow fit in the concept of laying down sick burns as a character in that game. I also fear the inevitable failure of laying down said burns resulting in me having to pull from the tower.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:36
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Chill la Chill posted:My group's trying out dread this next weekend and I'm trying to see if I can somehow fit in the concept of laying down sick burns as a character in that game. I also fear the inevitable failure of laying down said burns resulting in me having to pull from the tower. If you make the tower collapse with your sick burn, it's retroactively a self-own.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:39
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Haystack posted:Anyone who is the dark about this should take a look at the great Fatal and Friends review Nifara did of the core game. The whole thing isn't finished, but it does go over the base rules and systems at least.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:47
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Kai Tave posted:So playing a fighter doesn't get old because you can use your imagination out a spin on the concept, but playing someone who fights with words is played out and stale because you CAN'T put a spin on it because...??? It's a gimmick. "My dude lays down such sick burns that enemies literally die" is the thing that I've seen 20 or 30 times. It's like "my dude jumps so high that enemies literally die from broken necks trying to watch me" or "my dude is so good at math that she calculates their death to be right now" or "my dude is so cringe-worthy that enemies die of shame just witnessing my awkwardness" or even "my character only fights with spaghetti." Those are silly goofy gimmicks where you take a thing that cannot be used to do injury in real life and say that your character can kill with that thing. A character who is good with words is not a gimmick. Those words being so harsh that they kill is a gimmick. A character being awkward is not a gimmick. Having lethal levels of awkwardness is a gimmick. Gimmicks are fun once or twice. A gimmick the 20th time you see it is a gimmick that has lost its charm. Understand? If the gimmick is new to you, then go ahead and have fun with it until it gets stale for you. I'm not the fun police.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:55
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We've officially topped the time Jimbozig was offended by pirates existing, I think.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:01
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Gonna be honest, I've been playing RPGs in different venues since before Drow PCs were even a thing and literally never seen someone roll up with a Drizzt clone either, just people reflexively cringing at the idea that it -might- happen. Next PC, Drow who dual-wields killing words. unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 17:09
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unseenlibrarian posted:Gonna be honest, I've been playing RPGs in different venues since before Drow PCs were even a thing and literally never seen someone roll up with a Drizzt clone either, just people reflexively cringing at the idea that it -might- happen. Is he talking out of both sides of his mouth?
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Jul 27, 2017 17:13
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Obviously.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:15
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Jimbozig posted:"my dude is so good at math that she calculates their death to be right now" To be honest this is rad as hell. Also you are doing that thing where 'thing I don't like' is a gimmick, but similar things I do think are ok are not gimmicks. That's a poo poo posting gimmick and you should stop.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:15
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Echophonic posted:Is he talking out of both sides of his mouth? Ventriloquist.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:20
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my dude is so good at saying magic words that he can kill people with the results of his magic words my dude is so good at saying words that he can kill people with words Hmm, these things are clearly radically different! One is cool and good, the other is just a gimmick. e. oh yeah my dude is so good at thinking he can kill people with his mind thoughts! that must be even more gimmicky and less plausible than the words-killing man
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Jul 27, 2017 17:26
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Bombadilillo posted:To be honest this is rad as hell. No, I do like it. But it is a gimmick. The math gimmick is a sweet gimmick, too. I have never said that any of these are bad or stupid. They are fun and cool. Just that one is played out for me. An analogy: spore/focus punch breloom is a fun gimmick build pokemon that I will probably never use again. If you play Pokemon and you haven't tried it, you should try it for a bit. Eventually you will probably get sick of it like I did. But it is in no way bad or lame.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:27
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Jimbozig posted:It's a gimmick. "My dude lays down such sick burns that enemies literally die" is the thing that I've seen 20 or 30 times. It's like "my dude jumps so high that enemies literally die from broken necks trying to watch me" or "my dude is so good at math that she calculates their death to be right now" or "my dude is so cringe-worthy that enemies die of shame just witnessing my awkwardness" or even "my character only fights with spaghetti." Those are silly goofy gimmicks where you take a thing that cannot be used to do injury in real life and say that your character can kill with that thing. In the game in question, it's more akin to wearing down somebody's plot armor than doing 250 damage with your rapier wit, if that helps. It's a world where "we're not so different after all, you and I" has a chance to actually change the story.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:30
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unseenlibrarian posted:If you make the tower collapse with your sick burn, it's retroactively a self-own. Sick burns can't melt steel beams 
NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 17:33
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NTRabbit posted:Sick burns can't melt steel beams But they can melt a steely eyed gaze.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:57
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gradenko_2000 posted:I think it speaks to how long the D&D fantasy genre has been stultifyingly boring that people are still excited about that. Fixed part of that for you homullus posted:You should probably check out Spellbound Kingdoms, though. There are some specific mechanisms in it that you may find inspiring. Do the mechanisms help it to stand on its own, or are they just enough to qualify it for fantasy heartbreaker status?
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Jul 27, 2017 18:38
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Spellbound Kingdoms is absolutely not a heartbreaker.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:43
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I've honestly never seen a game that had mechanics quite like it. Combat is kind of like a dance when you reach a high enough skill level in a style to get access to most of its maneuvers, since you have to actually go through a chain to set up your best stuff.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:45
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MollyMetroid posted:Spellbound Kingdoms is absolutely not a heartbreaker. Not empty-quoting. The non-crunch setting material is heartbreaker-y. The actual game mechanics are more like outsider art.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:45
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LuiCypher posted:Fixed part of that for you There's an F&F review of the game available.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:47
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homullus posted:In the game in question, it's more akin to wearing down somebody's plot armor than doing 250 damage with your rapier wit, if that helps. It's a world where "we're not so different after all, you and I" has a chance to actually change the story. !! Yeah. Of course words should affect the story. Words can overcome enemies. Words can change the minds, their emotions, their attitudes, and their actions. If anyone interpreted my posts to mean that "face" characters or characters who primarily affect the story through words were gimmicks, then I can only apologise for being so unclear. That is not at all what I was referring to. As for Spellbound Kingdoms, I'm excited to see what it has for social mechanics. The gold standard for social mechanics right now for me is still Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits. And even that has balance issues.* I'm always interested in new perspectives on how to handle social interactions in RPGs. An RPG that makes those things a focus is really enticing to me. *In Duel of Wits, unless you outclass your opponent, the optimal strategy is to script nothing but "Point" over and over. Luke Crane is aware of this, but I think his response was basically "yeah, making a lot of good points is a good way to win an argument," and fair enough, but it misses an opportunity for more strategy. If you do outrank your opponent in terms of social skills, you have interesting choices to make about when to go for the win and when to try to preserve your own hp to minimize the level of compromise you owe. If the less-skilled party had interesting choices like that, it would be a perfect system instead of just a drat good one. The design problem is that for the less-skilled character, maximizing the level of compromise you get if you lose requires the same action as maximizing your chances to win: Point.
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Jul 27, 2017 18:49
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I think my favorite weird bit for Spellbound kingdoms is it going out of its way to make equipment matter as much for social stuff as it does for regular combat. You've got a nice dress and a really good fan to flick around so you can add nuance to what you say with fan language? It's like having a sword and armor.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:06
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My favorites are the sephirot combat moves and the (dead simple) Doom of a region setting DCs there.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:08
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