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Fister Roboto posted:It's really hosed up that the best solution SE could offer for the problem of "the early game is boring and bad" is "give us more money". People still defended it in droves. Probably still do.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:21
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Maybe FF XIV will start having new calamities every third or fourth expansion. Just a big reset button every couple years for a new generation of wols (please don't that's a terrible idea)
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Jul 27, 2017 19:21
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The correct response to "the early game is boring and bad" is "wrong, idiot"
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Jul 27, 2017 19:21
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As much as I'd be down for revamping the lower level areas, we're running out of moons to smash into Eorzea. That said I still really enjoyed my time doing the MSQ, even the bits after Ultima that everyone hates so maybe I'm just easily amused.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:22
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well, nobody was defending it until it got relitigated, again, but
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Jul 27, 2017 19:22
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Next expansion is the cataclysm patch so yoshi is going to wipe out the 2.0 areas and replace them. But just like cataclysm too much dev time is going to be spent reworking these zones and the endgame will suffer for it.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:23
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Fister Roboto posted:It's really hosed up that the best solution SE could offer for the problem of "the early game is boring and bad" is "give us more money". the problem is that that actually was the best solution they could offer e: goddamnit, someone messed up my doubleposting game
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Jul 27, 2017 19:23
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KoB posted:1-50 is way too long with not enough stuff/skills, just smash it all together into like 30 levels If nothing else, I think they might want to do a "stat squish" like WoW did at some point. Number-wise, we're still in the realm of Final Fantasy numbers now, though tending towards endgame Final Fantasy XIII numbers, which is fine. But the next expansion is going to go full tri-Ace numbers on us and that's gonna feel weird in a Final Fantasy game.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:25
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Rainuwastaken posted:As much as I'd be down for revamping the lower level areas, we're running out of moons to smash into Eorzea. The BLM 60-70 chain is basically this tho.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:27
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Harrow posted:I know Yoshida has mentioned in at least one interview that he'd like to do a Cataclysm-like revamp of the 2.0 zones some time, which would also be a good opportunity to smooth out the early leveling experience. I really don't know how that'd work for FFXIV, though, especially given the massive amount of story in 2.0 and the sharp focus the game has on story and continuity. FFXIV is better suited to this than WoW in my opinion, Calamities in FFXIV happen on a semi-regular basis and can drastically change the landscape and setting. Hell, ARR is basically Cataclysm-ed 1.0 and several zones became heavily frosted over, crystallized, etc. Rainuwastaken posted:As much as I'd be down for revamping the lower level areas, we're running out of moons to smash into Eorzea. The Calamities are aspected so like one was a big flood and junk. Dalamud falling was just one of them.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:29
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The early game is dumb for poo poo like: Archer 18-30 archer only get 1 self buff, no attacks for 12 levels. Marauder 15-30 gets no attacks, two buffs Gladiator 18-26, nothing Arcanist 10-26 no attacks, just Summon 2 Lancer 15-26, 1 buff Pugilist 6-18, 1 buff & 18-26, 1 buff Rogue 15-26 nothing Conjurer 18-26 nothing just huge swaths of empty levels. e: also a bunch of just really bad/boring dungeons that nobody ever wants to run, even poo poo left over from 1.0. Dungeon design is so much better 50 and beyond. KoB fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 19:30
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Is Garuda supposed to be notably harder than any of the other content up to that point? Did it for the first time last night and I swear it took almost half an hour, but I suspect it was largely due to a clueless first-time tank. Healer/mentor: okay tank you need to hold aggro Tank: lol i'm not a paladin but ok 
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Jul 27, 2017 19:31
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Ghost of Starman posted:Is Garuda supposed to be notably harder than any of the other content up to that point? Did it for the first time last night and I swear it took almost half an hour, but I suspect it was largely due to a clueless first-time tank. Titan is much harder on a newbie group and yes it was probably due to your awful tank.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:33
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Charles Get-Out posted:FFXIV is better suited to this than WoW in my opinion, Calamities in FFXIV happen on a semi-regular basis and can drastically change the landscape and setting. The only issue is that, if they're going to have a whole new story from 1-50, what happens when players get to Heavensward? In WoW, it's weird to go like "back in time" when you hit Outland and Northrend, but in FFXIV it'd be significantly weirder and more jarring. If they ever redid 1-50 and all the zones, they'd either need to keep the same basic story, or find some way to just skip over Heavensward and maybe even Stormblood because there's no way a totally new story would lead into those in any coherent way.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:34
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Ghost of Starman posted:Is Garuda supposed to be notably harder than any of the other content up to that point? Did it for the first time last night and I swear it took almost half an hour, but I suspect it was largely due to a clueless first-time tank. Honestly I'd say Titan normal is harder the Garuda normal, if anything. (Mostly on the basis that if you fall of the edge of the arena you are hosed. Garuda doesn't have anything that nasty.) On the other hand, Garuda normal would probably be harder if you're unlucky enough to get a group where everyone is new, as if you don't know what the deal is with the plumes it's much easier to wipe. (Whereas Titan's potentially party-wiping stuff is much more intuitive.)
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Jul 27, 2017 19:36
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Harrow posted:The only issue is that, if they're going to have a whole new story from 1-50, what happens when players get to Heavensward? In WoW, it's weird to go like "back in time" when you hit Outland and Northrend, but in FFXIV it'd be significantly weirder and more jarring. If they ever redid 1-50 and all the zones, they'd either need to keep the same basic story, or find some way to just skip over Heavensward and maybe even Stormblood because there's no way a totally new story would lead into those in any coherent way. I don't play WoW so I don't know for sure, but what did WoW do with the xpac stories from the ones before Cataclysm? If you look to 1.0&ARR, Dalamud falling changed a significant chunk of the areas and then they continued the story from there. I could see something like the 2.0 areas getting consolidated into bigger ones like HW/SB and I don't see why HW and SB stories would need to remain untouched.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:45
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Garuda has fewer pass/fail mechanics than Titan, but it's the first boss iirc with non-telegraphed AoE. Mistral Song and Slipstream confuse a lot of new players, and some healers can't keep up when folks make a few mistakes in a row.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:46
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just dedicate some resources to deleting 90% of the post 2.0 to 3.0 MSQ and add in some quests that explain it and then Minfilia said pray return and the WOL did and then baddy was mad and you have to fight it Baddy unlocked Yay you killed baddy pray return oh no ANOTHER baddy is mad Baddy 2 unlocked etc Charles Get-Out posted:If you look to 1.0&ARR, Dalamud falling changed a significant chunk of the areas and then they continued the story from there. I could see something like the 2.0 areas getting consolidated into bigger ones like HW/SB and I don't see why HW and SB stories would need to remain untouched. turns out the after effects of a meteor hitting the planet is that the places you can go to become curated rather than copy pasted Josuke Higashikata fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 19:47
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Charles Get-Out posted:I don't play WoW so I don't know for sure, but what did WoW do with the xpac stories from the ones before Cataclysm? Almost nothing. Maybe the intro quest is different, maybe one or two quests were cut if they interact with the old world, but otherwise they are stuck in their timeline. It's the most confusing poo poo ever.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:48
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Charles Get-Out posted:I don't play WoW so I don't know for sure, but what did WoW do with the xpac stories from the ones before Cataclysm? Nothing at all. If you do Cataclysm areas 1-60 and then go to Outland it acts like Cataclysm never happened. Chronologically, all the Cataclysm areas are post-Wrath of the Lich King, but once you go on to Outland and Northrend afterwards it acts like everything's normal. Charles Get-Out posted:If you look to 1.0&ARR, Dalamud falling changed a significant chunk of the areas and then they continued the story from there. I could see something like the 2.0 areas getting consolidated into bigger ones like HW/SB and I don't see why HW and SB stories would need to remain untouched. That makes it a significantly bigger job, unfortunately. Redoing the whole 1-50 experience is one thing. Redoing the whole 1-70 experience is even bigger. The whole reason they could make as big of changes as they did between 1.0 and 2.0 was because they literally hit the reset button. Everyone had to go through ARR's story together. If they redid the 1-50 story, how do you make sure people who are level 70 now experience it? How to do you make it work, continuity-wise? Do you reset everyone to level 1 again (which would not go over well)? If they redid 1-50, I think the only real option would be to keep the same overall story and just smooth out the pacing, then keep HW/SB exactly the same.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:48
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Harrow posted:If they redid 1-50, I think the only real option would be to keep the same overall story and just smooth out the pacing, then keep HW/SB exactly the same. This basically. Upping the amount of exp you get in general, expanding old zones to be bigger so they can fit in more dailies. Just making the current beastman dailies scaling like HW's won't work because they take you into 45+ areas. Easier to just make new bits for that. Hell, they could fit in more side-stories that explore less covered aspects of the setting like Postmoogle quests. Make the experience of leveling classes/jobs less of a chore by making them more fun early rather than the slow-rear end trickle of poo poo.
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Jul 27, 2017 19:59
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The only cataclysm that needs to happen should take out the churning mists. I spent days there. I STILL have sidequests. That said the beast tribe does a lot of work making them funny again.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:00
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Harrow posted:Nothing at all. If you do Cataclysm areas 1-60 and then go to Outland it acts like Cataclysm never happened. Chronologically, all the Cataclysm areas are post-Wrath of the Lich King, but once you go on to Outland and Northrend afterwards it acts like everything's normal. They've already established time jumps and a lot of the 1-50 portion is your character putting on their boots again. I don't know that missing out on establishing material is that big of a hurdle and you could essentially have the newer WoLs starting 'earlier' in whatever the current timeline is before poo poo really starts to go down and the older WoLs come online. Realistically a lot of the 2.0 base story was just lampshading plot beats that paid off around 45-50. And frankly, this was an issue with Legacy servers between 1.0 & ARR; many of the older players already had jobs at 50 and Square had them play through the new story as well. edit: To be clear, I do understand it is a difficult task, but I don't see that it is a significantly harder challenge than what WoW did.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:13
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Charles Get-Out posted:They've already established time jumps and a lot of the 1-50 portion is your character putting on their boots again. I don't know that missing out on establishing material is that big of a hurdle and you could essentially have the newer WoLs starting 'earlier' in whatever the current timeline is before poo poo really starts to go down and the older WoLs come online. Realistically a lot of the 2.0 base story was just lampshading plot beats that paid off around 45-50. What do you do with Heavensward and Stormblood, though? If there's a totally new 1-50 story, does it take place before them, or do we just try to handwave "going back in time" for those stories? That barely works in WoW (it doesn't, but so few people care about the plot that it doesn't matter), and it would be nuts in FFXIV. It'd be much better, if they ever did redo the 2.0 zones and 1-50, to just keep the same basic plot but "retell" it so that it still leads into Heavensward and they can go from there. Otherwise you have some insane continuity snarls. And again, I know they hit the reset button between 1.0 and 2.0, but that's because they hit the reset button on everything. It worked because everyone was starting from square one again. We all jumped forward in time together--there was nothing left behind to worry about maintaining continuity with. They're not going to do that again, now that they have a functional, popular game. I doubt they want to remove the well-received Heavensward and Stormblood stories, either.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:18
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I can understand the complaints about few buttons to press in the early levels, but I'm happy enough with the world and quests that it doesn't bother me much. Tbh I'm a huge Final Fantasy nerd so that may be why. Everything looks great except moogles. loving moogles.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:19
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They should've had Ivalice moogles. And made them playable. 
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Jul 27, 2017 20:20
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Argas posted:This basically. Upping the amount of exp you get in general, expanding old zones to be bigger so they can fit in more dailies. Just making the current beastman dailies scaling like HW's won't work because they take you into 45+ areas. Easier to just make new bits for that. Hell, they could fit in more side-stories that explore less covered aspects of the setting like Postmoogle quests. Make the experience of leveling classes/jobs less of a chore by making them more fun early rather than the slow-rear end trickle of poo poo. They don't really need to up the exp if that road to 60 thing is here to stay. People are well ahead of the level curve by the time they get to HW and SB content because of all the quests. They need to just severely trim the fat. HW's post launch/post 3.0 MSQ content is about perfect in terms of volume.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:21
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My personal thought is they should introduce a parallel 1-50 "fast track" questline, that's explicitly framed as a recap or whatever, and just has the Yoship bard giving you cliffnotes of what you did (and you still need to do any instances unlocked in that period, or choose a grand company, or whatever). One for every five levels or so, and it gives you most of the exp you need to do the next one. When you finish each one you can either continue the MSQ from that point or do the next fast track quest, so you can jump in or out of the full story every five levels. It depends how the game is coded but I imagine this would require vastly less work than a true overhaul.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:22
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cheetah7071 posted:My personal thought is they should introduce a parallel 1-50 "fast track" questline, that's explicitly framed as a recap or whatever, and just has the Yoship bard giving you cliffnotes of what you did (and you still need to do any instances unlocked in that period, or choose a grand company, or whatever). One for every five levels or so, and it gives you most of the exp you need to do the next one. When you finish each one you can either continue the MSQ from that point or do the next fast track quest, so you can jump in or out of the full story every five levels. I think that's definitely an option. I know Yoshida actually wants to redo the 2.0 zones at some point (introduce flying, make them bigger, that kind of thing), but if that isn't the next expansion, then really anything to smooth over 1-50 would be great.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:23
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Harrow posted:What do you do with Heavensward and Stormblood, though? If there's a totally new 1-50 story, does it take place before them, or do we just try to handwave "going back in time" for those stories? Significantly less work to keep stuff the same and have things lead into SB/HW, but you could basically truncate the current 1-70 experience into a new "1-50" experience. I do understand however that the whole point of a redo would be to make the problematic areas less so and that a redo of the non-problematic HW/SB parts is just a ton of work for almost no point - I'm just kind of spitballing and I don't think this is at all likely based off YoshiP's comment about it.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:25
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Josuke Higashikata posted:They don't really need to up the exp if that road to 60 thing is here to stay. People are well ahead of the level curve by the time they get to HW and SB content because of all the quests. More side-quests would at least give people even more avenues to leveling other jobs.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:30
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they don't need to remake 2.0 zones or make them bigger. bigger doesn't mean better. they could just figure out the height at which you can see the cheats they took to when making the zones (like castles with no roofs etc) and then just stop you from going that high like the height limit in flight enabled zones already. then you can just zip around the zones on your flyers and get poo poo done. I'm barely ever in North Shroud as it is. if it means I can get to the place where you upgrade ironworks in 10 seconds instead of 30, great. saves me time, doesn't make me appreciate the zone less.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:32
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The linear story progression is a big part of FFXIV's core design, so if a later story says "hey the old zones got hosed up" then any new players will only see the hosed up zones and all the quests that already exist relating to their 2.0 state will make no sense at all, nor will any of the HW or SB quests that don't recognize that the world got hosed up before the newbie player arrived in Ishgard. A rebuild would have to be a lot more subtle, or they would have to abandon the existing story path to support it. Or pull another full game reset a la 1.23 -> 2.0. They could probably get away with things like combining cities into single zones (or even making entire regions seamless), smoothing out leveling curves, and making changes to geography and zone features that don't require every NPC in the game to be rewritten. I.E. you could probably get away with "oh that mountain has always been there" but not "oh Garleans murdered everybody in Camp Drybone".
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Jul 27, 2017 20:32
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Argas posted:More side-quests would at least give people even more avenues to leveling other jobs. People take the path of least resistance, they're not going to do more side-quests if the side-quests are equal levels of rewarding as SB ones are, which is clearly the prevailing mindset right now. POTD will be king of 1-60 until it's trash, then they'll go back to fates. also remember that Cataclysm zones in WoW have been in the game for much longer than the Vanilla ones were at this point. Josuke Higashikata fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 20:34
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How does potd work anyways? People said it was good for leveling but I'm not understanding what it is at all
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Jul 27, 2017 20:37
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Thundarr posted:The linear story progression is a big part of FFXIV's core design, so if a later story says "hey the old zones got hosed up" then any new players will only see the hosed up zones and all the quests that already exist relating to their 2.0 state will make no sense at all, nor will any of the HW or SB quests that don't recognize that the world got hosed up before the newbie player arrived in Ishgard. Yeah. Pretty much this. The linear storyline of FFXIV means that you can't exactly do a WoW-style Cataclysm. I mean, look at how hosed up their timeline is if you're leveling stuff. I think the prime example was: Imagine you create a Worgen Death Knight. You start a Cataclysm (4.0) race in a Wrath of the Lich King (3.0) class starter zone, then you go back to Cataclysm (4.0) zones for five levels before moving on to Burning Crusade (2.0) zones then back to Wrath of the Lich King (3.0) zones and finally back to Cataclysm (4.0) zone and beyond. And the story is just as loving nonsense. It would be a lot of work to do a proper revamp of 1-50, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be done because I definitely feel like something needs to be done, but I just don't know what a good solution is.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:39
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Thundarr posted:The linear story progression is a big part of FFXIV's core design, so if a later story says "hey the old zones got hosed up" then any new players will only see the hosed up zones and all the quests that already exist relating to their 2.0 state will make no sense at all, nor will any of the HW or SB quests that don't recognize that the world got hosed up before the newbie player arrived in Ishgard. If they ever do smooth over the beginning part, my two big wishes would be separating SMN/SCH and merging zones for more seamless large areas like you suggest. I don't know that Gridania would benefit, but Ul'dah and Limsa would be pretty neat all interconnected.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:42
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Okay. Here's the solution: Take the 2.0-2.55 storyline and reformat it to be the 1-50 experience - so CM/Prae would land somewhere around level 35-40. Cut out about 30-40% of the quests, that should be enough to cut out all of the lovely filler quests. Then just make all of the story quests give like 5x the amount of XP that they currently give so that you can just do main story quests and make it all the way to level 50. It's a bit of work but it doesn't seem like it would be impossible.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:47
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:How does potd work anyways? People said it was good for leveling but I'm not understanding what it is at all They are short instance dungeon things with an independent leveling system. So when you first start youre level 1 with level 1 magic weapons and armor. You level up and gain equipment upgrades running through it. People talking about grinding POTD are running levels 51-60 over and over which gives a good XP bonus for completion.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:53
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:How does potd work anyways? People said it was good for leveling but I'm not understanding what it is at all It's a short randomly generated dungeon with 200 progressively more difficult floors, seperated into sets of 10. It has only a couple minute queue to get in regardless of your job. It doesn't require you to have gear and actually resets your level to 1 while inside. You level extremely quickly while inside. These levels and the floor you've gotten to are saved on a file outside of the dungeon that you can reset anytime. So you can do floor 1-10 then go and come back the next day to do 11-20 with a different team. If you wipe you have to start over at the beginning of the most recent set of 10 floors. If you succeed, at the end of each set of 10 you get a bunch of (real, out of potd) xp depending on the floor you reached. There are other rewards too, mostly glamour stuff. Floor 50 contains the first major boss. Beating them allows you to start new runs at 51 instead of 1. So you can do floors 51-60, delete your save file, and start again at 51 repeating the same set of 10 floors. This gives a lot of xp, is brain dead easy, and only takes about 20 mins. Higher floors are tougher which is why people reset back to 51 after doing 60, you can if you want go all the way to floor 100 to face the second major boss. This is a lot slower but marginally less boring because you do have to be more careful not to die. Every floor above 100 is just a progressively tougher experience meant as a challenge for fun and achievements. Jinh fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 20:59
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