|
Jimbozig posted:!! I feel like Luke's defence there misses that a Duel of Wits normally has an audience. Showboating, ad hominem attacks and oratory skill should be equally effective (assuming equivalent skill with each). I sometimes get the feeling with Duel of Wits that you're meant to think what you say first and then script actions that fit that, which is fine but means all the mechanical cruft isn't really adding anything that a straight skill v skill roll at the end couldn't do.
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 19:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 18:29 |
|
|
I have mixed feelings about Spellbound Kingdoms, mainly because it felt like it took a lot of genre subtexts and just makes them text. I actually like a lot of the systems but having them baked into the setting makes me feel like I'm going to be navigating a plot diagram devised by TVtropes. I'd actually really like to try it sometime, but it just felt kind of contrived on the face of things to me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
The Doom is actually tricky because the game doesn't really give a good sense of what an 'average' Doom is. e: also, yeah, the setting isn't so hot, but the system is nicely portable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
homullus posted:Not empty-quoting. I'm not sure what would make a setting heartbreaker-y but I wouldn't apply that label Spellbound Kingdoms that way since it's closer to 7th Sea's "age of enlightenment/early industrial revolution" than medieval high fantasy like D&D. Then again I like the idea of a setting teetering between a new era of progress and a new dark age with the PCs deciding how to deal with the decadent and oppressive ruling class. Mors Rattus posted:The Doom is actually tricky because the game doesn't really give a good sense of what an 'average' Doom is. There's a few places where better guidelines could be in place, like setting the Doom level, encounter design, and rules on how to make custom enemies and fighting/magic maneuvers. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
Yea for real talk about the system I really hope part of the new book is clearer guidelines because those little annoying moments can really add up and turn a really fun concept into something that makes it difficult to first wrap your head around.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:I'm not sure what would make a setting heartbreaker-y but I wouldn't apply that label Spellbound Kingdoms that way since it's closer to 7th Sea's "age of enlightenment/early industrial revolution" than medieval high fantasy like D&D. Then again I like the idea of a setting teetering between a new era of progress and a new dark age with the PCs deciding how to deal with the decadent and oppressive ruling class. Maybe I should have said "heartbreaker-ish" or "heartbreaker-esque?" The ingenuity of the setting falls far short of the ingenuity of the system -- don't buy it for its setting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
unseenlibrarian posted:I think my favorite weird bit for Spellbound kingdoms is it going out of its way to make equipment matter as much for social stuff as it does for regular combat. You've got a nice dress and a really good fan to flick around so you can add nuance to what you say with fan language? It's like having a sword and armor. I like that you can 'disarm' people's equipment in social combat like you can disarm people in actual combat. Once you've compared the Duchess's dress to a dishrag, she can't use it as an equipment bonus to turn up the scorn on people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2017 23:04
|
|
|
homullus posted:Maybe I should have said "heartbreaker-ish" or "heartbreaker-esque?" The ingenuity of the setting falls far short of the ingenuity of the system -- don't buy it for its setting. I like the setting 
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 00:34
|
|
|
My copy of Torchbearer: Middarmark came in: Feels little cheap, but acceptable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 01:23
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:The Doom is actually tricky because the game doesn't really give a good sense of what an 'average' Doom is. What's worse is that there actually is a guideline for average Doom, but it's hidden away in the Talents section, of all places. From the "Right People" talent on page 113: quote:You know all the right people. When you or your organization attempts to gain information that can be had by contacting other members of the underworld, lower the Doom by 1 (minor), by 3 (major), or by 6 (grand). Dooms of 7 or higher are rare; the grand version of the talent is meant to imply that your friends in the underworld can find out nearly any "normal secret" information, leaving only the "world-changing secret" information as a challenge. You may use this talent once per topic per week. This is definitely something that should have had its own section, and there are other parts of the rules that aren't very clear (what is the starting Wealth Level of the Noble House organization you get for free as a Noble), or have some problems in how they work (crafting rules for anything with a >20 Qualtity level), but overall this is a great game that more people should check out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 08:09
|
|
|
Flavivirus posted:I've just launched the kickstarter for Legacy: Life Among the Ruins 2nd Edition! This is incredibly tempting even though I know I'll never actually play it. A generation ship game that you play across the generations and involves drawing maps? That is ticking some boxes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 10:18
|
|
|
Good news. The Top Secret reboot funded and the rules are completed. Bad news, they aren't releasing the pdf until November when the print version is shipped... 90% of my rule book reading is on tablets and computer screens now. Hardcopy is great, but as I do all my gaming online, pdfs are so much more convenient with a multiple monitor setup and I hardly ever use the print books anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 16:23
|
|
|
Speaking of that, is there any way for backers of the Fragged expansions KS to get their corebook PDF that comes with their pledge now? I might have just missed an email or something. I looked in the updates and didn't see it. If I didn't miss anything, I have no problem with just "finding" a copy "somewhere" to read in the meantime. I already paid for it, after all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 17:29
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Speaking of that, is there any way for backers of the Fragged expansions KS to get their corebook PDF that comes with their pledge now? I might have just missed an email or something. I looked in the updates and didn't see it. Sounds like he isn't emailing anything out until after he closes the backer kit at like the end of August 
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 17:31
|
|
|
In terrible Kickstarter news, the expansion to the furry spacefaring rpg is two weeks away from finishing and already fully funded. Here's an F&F of the original HC SVNT DRACONES: http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/purplexvi/hc-svnt-dracones/ https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1448273438/hc-svnt-dracones-sound-and-silence
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
Furries have deep pockets and tend not to be as focused on quality of representation as fact of representation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
imo 90% of default settings push a little too hard and all games should just have implied settings ala apocaplyse world. Blades in the Dark is like 80 percent of the way there but the whole 'no sun, ghost bell, magic light plants' thing pushes it ever slightly too far into 'we needed to recreate specific elements and levels of the 4501 lineage of games.' That's fine! You can do the entire game in an almost-version of the Blades where there's still a dang sun and it's possible to kill somoene without ringing a weird bell. Blades in the dark is super good though in giving you detailed and varied write ups on factions. those rule and make gming like 1000% easier. Similarly, spellbound's setting pushes a little much in the 'nobles deliberately kill people's passions' thing. just let the world exist according to that logic without engaging in the post-modern navelgazing of justifying those genre elements within the text. of course your PCs want to destroy your enemy's passion - they're swashbuckling heroes wronged and motivated by revenge! It's exactly right for them want to destroy someone's happiness as well as their spinal column.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
The ghost bell is actually fairly important just as a reminder that murder ups the stakes (and heat) of anything you're doing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
Also it's 0451, c'mon man.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:30
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:Similarly, spellbound's setting pushes a little much in the 'nobles deliberately kill people's passions' thing. just let the world exist according to that logic without engaging in the post-modern navelgazing of justifying those genre elements within the text. of course your PCs want to destroy your enemy's passion - they're swashbuckling heroes wronged and motivated by revenge! It's exactly right for them want to destroy someone's happiness as well as their spinal column. We must play with vastly different groups because all the people I've ever played with would just do their damndest to blow the villain up with a bomb from a safe distance while avoiding any other avenue of attack I offered.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:32
|
|
|
Last year a backed a little game called Scuttle. Its was a pirate themed card game where you race to 21 treasure. Cards can be played for their power or put in front of you as treasure. Strong take-that while being good light fun. Game takes from 2 minutes to 10 minutes and you play it a few times. Its in the Uno replacement category although a bit more advanced what with reading powers. My kid loves it and its one of my most played games by far. All that to say theres a followup game with a Ninja theme https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/peterchayward/ninjitsu-the-ninja-card-game-for-all-ages Its not a reskin but similar to the point where the games are compatible. Its also pretty drat cheap $24 will get you everything shipped to USA. You can also pick up the above mentioned Scuttle if you please.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:36
|
|
|
ah gently caress it is 0451. i'm not owned i'm not owned.Mors Rattus posted:The ghost bell is actually fairly important just as a reminder that murder ups the stakes (and heat) of anything you're doing. I considered leaving this out of my post because it does have some of the best metagame rationale of any of the other examples, but to me its still a little clunky that the ghost bell exists because 1. One of the crew playbooks is tied to it so it is harder to excise from the game than other options. and 2. There are already enough metagame ways to indicate this, like the automatic +2 HEAT taken when someone is killed on a job. I like Blades in the dark a lot and its one of my favorite games right now. It demonstrates that you can have a fairly robust, crunchier system attached to the *World framework and make it work really well. But its setting gets a little baroque.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:37
|
|
|
Serf posted:We must play with vastly different groups because all the people I've ever played with would just do their damndest to blow the villain up with a bomb from a safe distance while avoiding any other avenue of attack I offered. This is probably just going to inspire another round of "oh I feel so sorry for you that your game group is bad" but 100% agreedo with this, the average tabletop RPG group is actually incredibly risk-averse and wants to triumph over their opponents in the most decisive way possible with no chance for retaliation. "Just engage in the genre!" is more likely to return blank stares than some kind of wondrous awakening of the imagination, and if calling in a tactical airstrike on the evil duke who imprisoned them was an option they would pick it every time over a dramatic swordfight in a burning castle.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:38
|
|
|
For me the baroque setting is one of the draws. But then, I like meaty setting material, it's fun to read.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:39
|
|
|
Serf posted:We must play with vastly different groups because all the people I've ever played with would just do their damndest to blow the villain up with a bomb from a safe distance while avoiding any other avenue of attack I offered. Of course, they can't do that if you're playing spellbound kingdoms because they have to reduce the passions of their enemy to zero first. Just because you don't justify the mechanics with an in-game, textual-within-the-setting hyperawareness of genre conventions doesn't mean you can't agree to play by those conventions and enforce them mechanically.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:40
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:This is probably just going to inspire another round of "oh I feel so sorry for you that your game group is bad" but 100% agreedo with this, the average tabletop RPG group is actually incredibly risk-averse and wants to triumph over their opponents in the most decisive way possible with no chance for retaliation. "Just engage in the genre!" is more likely to return blank stares than some kind of wondrous awakening of the imagination, and if calling in a tactical airstrike on the evil duke who imprisoned them was an option they would pick it every time over a dramatic swordfight in a burning castle. nah I think you can still corral a gaming group with mechanics to get them to do the style of play you want, I just don't see why they have to be reinforced with explicit in-setting justification. mechanics =/= setting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:This is probably just going to inspire another round of "oh I feel so sorry for you that your game group is bad" but 100% agreedo with this, the average tabletop RPG group is actually incredibly risk-averse and wants to triumph over their opponents in the most decisive way possible with no chance for retaliation. "Just engage in the genre!" is more likely to return blank stares than some kind of wondrous awakening of the imagination, and if calling in a tactical airstrike on the evil duke who imprisoned them was an option they would pick it every time over a dramatic swordfight in a burning castle. I mean I'm not complaining. Having players who always went for the most efficient and least risky kill usually meant I was able to challenge them with unconventional threats or make the villains just as big of bastards who wouldn't go down easily. Rocket tag at the highest levels. Impermanent posted:Of course, they can't do that if you're playing spellbound kingdoms because they have to reduce the passions of their enemy to zero first. Just because you don't justify the mechanics with an in-game, textual-within-the-setting hyperawareness of genre conventions doesn't mean you can't agree to play by those conventions and enforce them mechanically. I mean you could do that, but as a fantasy world, having these genre conventions be a hard and fast rule of the world makes the setting more unique and adds something cool to the world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:45
|
|
|
Setting stuff that is tightly integrated via mechanics owns and is how things should be designed, just like mechanics embodying your theme. Generic systems and settings are poo poo and there's enough of them already. If your setting is just a pile of fluff with zero mechanics to represent it, you're doing it wrong.
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jul 28, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:47
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:nah I think you can still corral a gaming group with mechanics to get them to do the style of play you want, I just don't see why they have to be reinforced with explicit in-setting justification. mechanics =/= setting. I think if there's no explanation for why you have to reduce the evil duke's passions to zero before you can run them through with a sword the average game group is more likely to be confused, argumentative, and wondering why they aren't just playing D&D instead. Integrating mechanics into the setting is how you corral a gaming group into engaging with that sort of thing, that's why RPG writers do it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
Glancing through that F&F posting about Furries...In...SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE I guess it could be a neat game if you said all the fluff stuff is just in universe propaganda? Like, the whole 'the entire population is basically the offshoots of biological servitor droids and also I guess space slender man is real' could be neat but man there's just so many layers of 'corporations, free from the slavery of the government, basically are gods, but it's ok because anyone who isn't happy can just work for another corporation'. Why are furries always so drat libertarian
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 22:26
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:nah I think you can still corral a gaming group with mechanics to get them to do the style of play you want, I just don't see why they have to be reinforced with explicit in-setting justification. mechanics =/= setting. I mean, you're not wrong. You definitely don't have to give a setting self-aware, ludonarrative mechanics like Spellbound Kingdoms has. Given that the huge majority of ludonarrative stuff is overly-meta, post-hoc, lazy attempts at observational humor (*cough* Order of the Stick *cough*), I can't fault some automatic skepticism about it. That being said, Spellbound Kingdoms makes it work. It had a mechanic (Inspirations) that reinforces many of it's genre's central theme, and chose to reinforce that mechanic by making the setting aware of its narrative effects. It's a little silly, sure, but this is a setting that draws on The Princess Bride, The Three Musketeers, and Stardust. A little campiness is in the nature of the genre. And in exchange, the setting gets eviler villains, flashier good guys, and the whole world comes across just a little more magical than it might have otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2017 23:37
|
|
|
Haystack posted:I mean, you're not wrong. You definitely don't have to give a setting self-aware, ludonarrative mechanics like Spellbound Kingdoms has. Given that the huge majority of ludonarrative stuff is overly-meta, post-hoc, lazy attempts at observational humor (*cough* Order of the Stick *cough*), I can't fault some automatic skepticism about it. That being said, Spellbound Kingdoms makes it work. It had a mechanic (Inspirations) that reinforces many of it's genre's central theme, and chose to reinforce that mechanic by making the setting aware of its narrative effects. It's a little silly, sure, but this is a setting that draws on The Princess Bride, The Three Musketeers, and Stardust. A little campiness is in the nature of the genre. And in exchange, the setting gets eviler villains, flashier good guys, and the whole world comes across just a little more magical than it might have otherwise. This is fair - it works within the spirit of many of the works the game takes its inspiration from. However, were I to run it, I'd probably remove that and have the mechanic work more subtextually - there are many examples of works within that genre where people don't die until they give up hope without using the self-aware contrivance. Lemon-Lime posted:Setting stuff that is tightly integrated via mechanics owns and is how things should be designed, just like mechanics embodying your theme. Generic systems and settings are poo poo and there's enough of them already. If your setting is just a pile of fluff with zero mechanics to represent it, you're doing it wrong. Kai Tave posted:I think if there's no explanation for why you have to reduce the evil duke's passions to zero before you can run them through with a sword the average game group is more likely to be confused, argumentative, and wondering why they aren't just playing D&D instead. Integrating mechanics into the setting is how you corral a gaming group into engaging with that sort of thing, that's why RPG writers do it. This is not what I'm arguing for. I'm not here to turn everything into GURPS or to suggest running a noir game in Pathfinder. I never suggested not integrating the mechanics into the setting, just not being whedon-meets-deadpool level of self-aware about it. There are countless RPGs that force an extremely stylized of play without resorting to this. Dogs in the Vineyard, Fiasco, Hillfolk, etc. have very structured narrative driven rules without inventing a reason within the text for them to exist. There's no "the spirit of the the gun demands you either escalate to guns if you lose an argument or back down" in-universe mechanic for Dogs in the Vineyard's escalation rules.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 01:17
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:This is not what I'm arguing for. I'm not here to turn everything into GURPS or to suggest running a noir game in Pathfinder. I never suggested not integrating the mechanics into the setting, just not being whedon-meets-deadpool level of self-aware about it. There are countless RPGs that force an extremely stylized of play without resorting to this. Dogs in the Vineyard, Fiasco, Hillfolk, etc. have very structured narrative driven rules without inventing a reason within the text for them to exist. There's no "the spirit of the the gun demands you either escalate to guns if you lose an argument or back down" in-universe mechanic for Dogs in the Vineyard's escalation rules. "Whedon-meets-Deadpool level of self-aware" sounds more like a personal hangup than an accurate description of either of the two games you're arguing about tbh. You seem to be looking at these games and coming away with the impression that they're somehow the product of some TVTropsian masturbatory exercise, which is a criticism I've seen leveled at Spellbound Kingdoms before but frankly I'm not convinced it's any more "self-aware" than any other fantasy setting with weird magical metaphysics that people within the setting acknowledge of which there are probably several million, and this is frankly the first time I've seen anyone level the criticism at Blades in the Dark. I think you're reaching.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 02:18
|
|
|
Massive Darkness arrived, another CMON "here's a fuckton of resin". I'm pretty happy with it but how the gently caress am I going to store it all  
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 02:31
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:just not being whedon-meets-deadpool level of self-aware about it. Okay, but neither Spellbound Kingdoms' inspirations or Blades in the Dark's spirit bells are that, so which games/mechanics were you talking about, exactly?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 03:39
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:This is fair - it works within the spirit of many of the works the game takes its inspiration from. However, were I to run it, I'd probably remove that and have the mechanic work more subtextually - there are many examples of works within that genre where people don't die until they give up hope without using the self-aware contrivance. And personally I roll my eyes at that sort of thing when it's just a genre trope. It being an explicit, known metaphysical element of the setting is why I think it's cool in Spellbound Kingdoms.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 03:57
|
|
|
I'm not even sure how you draw the line between something that's just a setting element that gets reflected in the game's mechanics and vice versa and "Whedon-meets-Deadpool levels of self-awareness," and in fact it seems like a pretty self-defeating argument since the thing about TVTropes style "analysis" is you can break anything down into a kitschy sounding collection of catchphrases if you're willing to be reductionist enough. Like yeah, obviously Blades in the Dark is inspired by Thief and Dishonored, the city's name sounds very close to Dunwall and all that, but on the other hand all the stuff about ghosts and electroplasm and weird spirit nonsense has its beginnings in Harper's earlier games like Ghost|Echo and Ghost Lines, so is the concept of the spirit bell John Harper's winking-and-nudging attempt to tropesify something about killing people setting off alarms or is it actually something that's been in his notes for years waiting for him to work it into a game, and how could you even tell unless Harper was being utterly blatant about it? Is Spellbound Kingdoms more or less self-aware than, say, the Vlad Taltos books where resurrection is so commonplace that nobles use assassinations as little more than a pointed argument, or Blue Rose with its intrinsic acknowledgement of capital-letter Light and Darkness and their screening of nobles and political candidates with the equivalent of a Rod of Detect Alignment?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 06:30
|
|
|
Solemn Sloth posted:Massive Darkness arrived, another CMON "here's a fuckton of resin". It's half the size of my accumulated Cthulhu Wars, suck it up and deal.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 09:28
|
|
|
Bombadilillo posted:Last year a backed a little game called Scuttle. Its was a pirate themed card game where you race to 21 treasure. Cards can be played for their power or put in front of you as treasure. Strong take-that while being good light fun. Game takes from 2 minutes to 10 minutes and you play it a few times. Its in the Uno replacement category although a bit more advanced what with reading powers. My kid loves it and its one of my most played games by far. I am excited about this myself. Scuttle has been a great pallet cleanser for my game nights. Backed Ninjitsu already.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 11:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 18:29 |
|
|
Impermanent posted:This is fair - it works within the spirit of many of the works the game takes its inspiration from. However, were I to run it, I'd probably remove that and have the mechanic work more subtextually - there are many examples of works within that genre where people don't die until they give up hope without using the self-aware contrivance. The nature of sufficiently strong Inspirations is important in Spellbound Kingdoms because it facilitates flashy, risk-taking behavior a swashbuckling story feeds on. You can certainly have a chase across the highest towers of a castle or swing across a room on a chandelier in D&D or Shadowrun or a World of Darkness game, but Spellbound Kingdoms removes the likely response from the GM of "Okay but if you fail, you fall and break your neck." You don't have to worry about a bad roll leading to your death or even a TPK because you wanted to try something cool. The game, the world, simply doesn't allow it. Death is dramatic and comes after sufficient build up on the part of a party or a major antagonist. This being a known quality in the world is interesting because it leads to a dilemma the PCs have to resolve. Inspirations don't cause magical surges or natural disasters the way Spellbound magic does, but the nobility still suppress Inspirations in the common people because they want to easily eliminate uppity peasants. As the PCs grow in power and begin to set policies that influence a country, they have to decide if allowing the peasants the right to self-determination is worth the risk. Should they allow commoners to know that strong passions aren't as dangerous as they've been told all their lives? And in fact, being passionate about something is not just safe, but means you can live a full life and never have to worry about murder or accidental death? Does every intelligent being deserve that right? How will the peasants react knowing they've been lied to like that by their king and their church?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2017 18:00
|
|