TG Crowdfunding Thread 3: Far West has been released. That's not a joke.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG Crowdfunding Thread 3: Far West has been released. That's not a joke.

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Serf: May 5, 2011

Nuns with Guns posted:

The nature of sufficiently strong Inspirations is important in Spellbound Kingdoms because it facilitates flashy, risk-taking behavior a swashbuckling story feeds on. You can certainly have a chase across the highest towers of a castle or swing across a room on a chandelier in D&D or Shadowrun or a World of Darkness game, but Spellbound Kingdoms removes the likely response from the GM of "Okay but if you fail, you fall and break your neck."

This is totally an aside from the main discussion, but man this attitude sucks when encountered in the wild. Who doesn't want their characters to pull of flashy and cool stunts like in the movies and poo poo? I used to give my players bonuses to this sort of stuff because I like to run my games like a Fast and Furious movie. Discouraging big action-movie moments is such a drag.

Now that I think about it The Fast and the Spellbound isn't a bad idea...

# ? Jul 29, 2017 18:08

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# ? May 14, 2024 12:53

HidaO-Win: Jun 5, 2013; "And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"

Serf posted:

This is totally an aside from the main discussion, but man this attitude sucks when encountered in the wild. Who doesn't want their characters to pull of flashy and cool stunts like in the movies and poo poo? I used to give my players bonuses to this sort of stuff because I like to run my games like a Fast and Furious movie. Discouraging big action-movie moments is such a drag.

Now that I think about it The Fast and the Spellbound isn't a bad idea...

It kinda comes down to the type of GM you have, the type of game the GM wants to run and the type of game the players want. In RPG design one of the schools of thought breaks those types down into GNS, Gamist: The game rules should make sense and be balanced, Narrativist: The game rules should fit the story and the theme of the game and Simulationist: The game rules should model the game world in the way a physics model would.

So a GM with a simulationist outlook might ask you for a skill check for a flashy stunt because doing that would be hard in real life, a Gamist one would probably only ask for it if she felt it would convey a mechanical advantage and a Narrativist would just enjoy it as a flourish if the game world was one where such heroics are common place, if it didn't fit (say a horror game) a narrativist GM might ask for a harsh skill check as failure would be thematic of the setting.

RPG designers have been reasonably poor about explaining these concepts to people which leads to people with weird preconceptions about how a game "should" be run.
Link that in with two main ways to learn how to play, either from some eccentric more experienced person or by reading the textbook yourself and making a bunch of errors and you end up with people with odd sets of beliefs of how a game should be run. (Weird how learning RPGs is a lot like becoming a wizard)
Hell some people think only the GM should roll dice.

# ? Jul 29, 2017 18:54

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

GNS theory has been bullshit from day one, hth

# ? Jul 29, 2017 19:04

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

Mors Rattus posted:

GNS theory has been bullshit from day one, hth

# ? Jul 29, 2017 21:39

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Yeah. It's a nugget of an idea that was turned into a bludgeon by one group to explain why their games were "objectively" better. The language used for it is blatantly biased, particularly towards Gamist styles, and it painted any blending of styles as "pulling in opposite directions" and so tried to shove all game design and players into one corner of the triangle. Rather than being a way to describe games, it was used to prescribe how to design them.

A better summation is "make sure you and the players are on the same page (figuratively and I suppose literally) and are using a system that supports what you want to do with it (or at least doesn't actively discourage it, for example most D&D editions as written have WAY more penalties than benefits to doing anything not written down). If people wanna sling dice and kill dragons in a game that's only a little more RPG than Descent, don't try to drag them into courtly intrigue. Or at least make sure they're okay with being out of their element."

# ? Jul 30, 2017 00:17

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Bruceski posted:

Yeah. It's a nugget of an idea that was turned into a bludgeon by one group to explain why their games were "objectively" better. The language used for it is blatantly biased, particularly towards Gamist styles, and it painted any blending of styles as "pulling in opposite directions" and so tried to shove all game design and players into one corner of the triangle. Rather than being a way to describe games, it was used to prescribe how to design them.

A better summation is "make sure you and the players are on the same page (figuratively and I suppose literally) and are using a system that supports what you want to do with it (or at least doesn't actively discourage it, for example most D&D editions as written have WAY more penalties than benefits to doing anything not written down). If people wanna sling dice and kill dragons in a game that's only a little more RPG than Descent, don't try to drag them into courtly intrigue. Or at least make sure they're okay with being out of their element."

The problem with your version is that people are really really bad at expressing or even knowing what they are trying to get out of gaming.

If you ask many players what their goal is in play, they will just say "to have fun, duh. We are all on the same page because we all just want to have fun."

Okay, so if we want gamers to be able to express what they want, you need to have the right language to do it. The language we generally use is lacking. For instance, you can get a group of players together who all say they just want to smash poo poo and kill dragons, then run into problems when one min-maxes in anticipation of difficult tactical dragon-smashing, while another expects to be able to describe the cool awesome stunts his character uses to take down the dragon and get big bonuses for RP. A third wants to spend an hour of real time shopping for equipment and building an explosive dragon-trap because obviously facing a dragon head-on is foolish, and explosives are clearly the most smashy and dragon-killy answer.

Well gently caress, we are still not on the same page because we all want to smash dragons in different ways.

Ron Edwards' goal was to identify the most common goals that most players have around the table. He identified "playing to find out what happens" and "playing for the challenge," but also found that there was a large contingent of people who liked to poo poo on both "roll players" and "magical tea parties" and crow about "immersion." His theory was that they were a third thing, which he called simulationist (which was by that time already an existing pejorative) and he admitted he didn't understand them. My theory is a little different - they are actually just assholes and their "creative agenda" is putting others down and feeling smug and superior about what great roleplayers they are.

The advantage of GNS over something like Robin Laws' player types is that it recognizes that the same player might have different goals on different days and while playing different systems. The disadvantage is that it is incomplete and too coarse - there are multiple types of agenda within each of the two non-bullshit groups Ron identified. For instance, both the first and third dragon-smashers in my example are aiming for a kind of gamism, but the one who wants to focus on combat will never get along with the one who wants to do everything in the system to win without having to go into combat. The fact that simulationism is a bullshit label and category is another big issue for it. Vincent Baker went on to do some cool stuff based on the idea of creative agenda without needing to worry about specific categories.

The fact that people who aren't interested in reading what Ron actually wrote like to use GNS to describe themselves, to pigeonhole others, and to categorize games is lovely, but not really Ron's fault. If you read the essays, he is very very clear that he is not talking about those things.

# ? Jul 30, 2017 01:15

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

I think GNS is important because it was one of the early attempts to actually figure out "what am I trying to do?" in regards to game design, with the idea that your mechanics should line up with the goals of your story. These are important things, and it wasn't getting a lot of discussion about why it was okay for one game to have very solid vehicle rules, where another game might abstract them out almost entirely, despite having similar settings. It lets us start to look at why balance is super important in one game, but might not be such a big deal in another. Not that no one was thinking about it at all before then, but it was one of the first formal ways of looking at game types.

That said, we now have a lot more written on the subject, and we can look at things like player-facing, mechanical weight given to negotiations between GM and player, how subsystems might have a slightly different focus from the rest of the game, and other innovations in the games industry in the last fifteen years or so. Leaving aside the shittiness of where people took GNS ("My game is superior, because it's not one of those narrative magical tea parties" "My game isn't some lovely simulationist murder hobo shitfarmer simulator"), we've still kind of moved on.

It was important that things like GNS or Robin Laws's player types were written, because it started up the conversation and got us asking questions about how we made games. But it's not the be-all end-all of game design anymore.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 05:16

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

The psychological analysis of roleplaying and specifically in TTRPGs is one that's very under developed (for obvious reasons). The big questions are "How are you having fun with this?" and "Why are you having fun with this?" It's like the Johhny/Timmy/Spike/Vorthos/Melvin categorization in MtG. It's an analysis that's not really all that useful for anything other than academic curiosity and possibly a way to make a quick buck by further analyzing and exploiting a certain type of player/GM. For any kind of profile, it can get used to great benefit to improve or abused to detract a game's appeal. It's like how people use MBTI results to judge people or even influence hiring even though it's pretty much no better at gauging long term personality patterns than a horoscope. It's an interesting categorization nonetheless, but if that rabbit hole were to be leapt into again, it should analyze the players and what they want instead of the GM and what they present.

# ? Jul 31, 2017 19:46

demota: Aug 12, 2003; I could read between the lines. They wanted to see the alien.

What I'm hearing here is that GNS is like psychoanalysis but for RPGs.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 04:31

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Kevin Crawford just listed Stars Without Number Revised edition

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/stars-without-number-revised-edition

# ? Aug 1, 2017 06:16

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Kevin Crawford just listed Stars Without Number Revised edition

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/stars-without-number-revised-edition

Man.

quote:

At $40,000 I will forge the culmination of madness and bibliomanic obsession- the mighty UNIVERSAL OMNIBUS, a vast hardback tome containing every single Stars Without Number first edition product, both free and for-pay. This massive, black-and-white interior tome will consist of the Stars Without Number first edition core book, Skyward Steel, Suns of Gold, Darkness Visible, Starvation Cheap, Polychrome, Dead Names, Relics of the Lost, Engines of Babylon, Sixteen Stars, Hard Light, all of the Mandate Archive free supplements, and both editions of The Sandbox, the whole summing over a thousand pages. Everything that ever has or will be written for first-edition Stars Without Number will be contained within this book.

Just look at this titanic beast. That's the testing proof I had printed of it, pushed to the bleeding-edge limits of Lightning Source's POD printing tech. The actual volume will be about 5/6th that size, but it'll still be a pet-crushing megatome of thunderous dimensions.

Every backer at $20 or more will be given a code that will permit them to order this voluminous codex from DriveThruRPG for $100, if they so wish. This code will not have an expiration date, so they may defer the purchase until later if they wish to reflect on it.

Just click on that link and see the size of that thing.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 07:19

Mojo Jojo: Sep 21, 2005

I'm amazed at how the funding for Founders of Gloomhaven has ground to a halt. I was expecting it to blow up.

It's the same thing with Argent which really limped along to get funded (although I think most of that was the awful shipping costs)

Have we got peak boardgame kickstarter?

Actually looking at the lovely GoT Game I suppose not. You just need to scoop on some plastic

# ? Aug 1, 2017 12:55

Bombadilillo: Feb 28, 2009; The dock really fucks a case or nerfing it.

Mojo Jojo posted:

I'm amazed at how the funding for Founders of Gloomhaven has ground to a halt. I was expecting it to blow up.

It's the same thing with Argent which really limped along to get funded (although I think most of that was the awful shipping costs)

Have we got peak boardgame kickstarter?

Actually looking at the lovely GoT Game I suppose not. You just need to scoop on some plastic

The game didn't sound fun to me. Its also in a style where there's a lot of 'modern classics' and you need to be drat gois to have longevity.

Basically I'm going to wait for reviews and if its great I will get it on the second kickstarter.

It was supposed to be fully playable in tabletop simulator right? Waiting for trip reports from that.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 14:15

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

90s Cringe Rock posted:

Man.

Just click on that link and see the size of that thing.

SWN Revised has funded in ten hours. The original is awesome and I want the six-pound monstrosity.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:35

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

Does that hundred bucks of printing fees include shipping?

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:43

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

SWN Revised has funded in ten hours. The original is awesome and I want the six-pound monstrosity.

The 100 dollars at cost everything in one book?

I have to say I'm tempted.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:43

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

The Omnibus is too rich for my blood, but yeah, SWN Revised is cool. I'm in.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:45

GrandpaPants: Feb 13, 2006; Free to roam the heavens in man's noble quest to investigate the weirdness of the universe!

Mojo Jojo posted:

I'm amazed at how the funding for Founders of Gloomhaven has ground to a halt. I was expecting it to blow up.

It's the same thing with Argent which really limped along to get funded (although I think most of that was the awful shipping costs)

Have we got peak boardgame kickstarter?

Founders doesn't really incentivize anyone to back it except maybe (?) cheaper than online retail prices. As far as I can tell, there are no exclusives (good), no promos, no content stretch goals to really pull at people to get more bang for their buck. It doesn't even have particularly splashy art or anything. If it weren't for Gloomhaven, which was remarkable in the sheer breadth of content that later panned out to be actually good content, there's no real reason to look at Founders besides as "just another Euro."

Argent is just a second edition of a game that didn't get the hype push that Gloomhaven did, so I'm not that surprised it's not exactly spiking up. Not to mention anime may (?) be a harder sell than whatever weird fantasy aesthetic Gloomhaven goes for. Note that it is still pretty on track for beating the 1st edition's modest ~$140k, but if I recall, the previous Indines Kickstarter overestimated demand, judging by the stretch goals.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 16:03

The_Doctor: Mar 29, 2007; "The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Just backed Visitor in Blackwood Grove which seems light and fun, about an alien, a kid, some agents and a forcefield.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 16:13

alg: Mar 14, 2007; A wolf was no less a wolf because a whim of chance caused him to run with the watch-dogs.

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Kevin Crawford just listed Stars Without Number Revised edition

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/stars-without-number-revised-edition

Is my math right that a core book through this is over 70 dollars? Just doesn't seem like it's worth picking up through this Kickstarter, even if it's a great game.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 16:18

Bombadilillo: Feb 28, 2009; The dock really fucks a case or nerfing it.

The_Doctor posted:

Just backed Visitor in Blackwood Grove which seems light and fun, about an alien, a kid, some agents and a forcefield.

This looks really interesting. Its trying to hit me in the nostalgia benis. And at $17 shipped? I think I'm in.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 16:20

Dulkor: Feb 28, 2009

alg posted:

Is my math right that a core book through this is over 70 dollars? Just doesn't seem like it's worth picking up through this Kickstarter, even if it's a great game.

There are two tiers, the premium color print is 75 with shipping and the standard color with shipping is 55.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 16:38

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

The_Doctor posted:

Just backed Visitor in Blackwood Grove which seems light and fun, about an alien, a kid, some agents and a forcefield.

This looks like Zendo but slightly less creative and with team roles attached, not really sure about it when I can just play Zendo.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 16:45

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Mojo Jojo posted:

I'm amazed at how the funding for Founders of Gloomhaven has ground to a halt. I was expecting it to blow up.

It's the same thing with Argent which really limped along to get funded (although I think most of that was the awful shipping costs)

Have we got peak boardgame kickstarter?

Actually looking at the lovely GoT Game I suppose not. You just need to scoop on some plastic

Are you talking about the Argent reprint? Funding in like 4 days seems fine for a reprint of a game where most of the funding is coming from people just buying upgrade packs.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 17:20

NTRabbit: Aug 15, 2012; i wear this armour to protect myself from the histrionics of hysterical women

bitches

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-4-mr-bones-epic-adventure

Bones 4 is up. Separate pledge levels for different regions, so maybe they've got their poo poo together for non-US backers this time

# ? Aug 1, 2017 18:07

rydiafan: Mar 17, 2009

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294034747/heroes-wanted-elements-of-danger/description

I'm a big fan of Heroes Wanted, and the last expansion is currently on Kickstarter. They say they'll never sell it in stores, so whatever is left after the Kickstarter will be convention fodder.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 18:10

8one6: May 20, 2012; When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!

If you backed the latest hardcover volume of Atomic Robo It's almost ready!
Soom they'll be printed, shipped, and then sit in customs for two months because it's a big crate marked "Atomic" on the side.

# ? Aug 2, 2017 20:36

Zark the Damned: Mar 9, 2013

Wanted the second edition of Argent but was dissuaded by ridiculous shipping costs?

Well, here's some good news for you! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/level99games/argent-the-consortium-2nd-ed/posts/1953578?ref=backer_project_update

(TLDR: Some reward tiers now get free shipping to certain countries / the EU)

# ? Aug 2, 2017 21:34

Mojo Jojo: Sep 21, 2005

Zark the Damned posted:

Wanted the second edition of Argent but was dissuaded by ridiculous shipping costs?

Well, here's some good news for you! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/level99games/argent-the-consortium-2nd-ed/posts/1953578?ref=backer_project_update

(TLDR: Some reward tiers now get free shipping to certain countries / the EU)

That's a bit of a turn around from the initial update saying there was nothing they could do

Hopefully it'll give them a bit more momentum

# ? Aug 3, 2017 06:53

Issaries: Sep 15, 2008; "At the end of the day
We are all human beings
My father once told me that
The world has no borders"

Do you need a fog machine in a shape of a crypt for your rpg/wargame?

You really do:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/realgamefx/fog-monster-mini-fog-machine-for-tabletop-games-an?ref=category_recommended

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s2b-mR9v4s

# ? Aug 3, 2017 10:51

The_Doctor: Mar 29, 2007; "The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

adhuin posted:

Do you need a fog machine in a shape of a crypt for your rpg/wargame?

You really do:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/realgamefx/fog-monster-mini-fog-machine-for-tabletop-games-an?ref=category_recommended

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s2b-mR9v4s

That's pretty cheap for a fog machine that size. It would be good for cosplay purposes too. Hmmmm.

# ? Aug 3, 2017 12:50

djfooboo: Oct 16, 2004

Mojo Jojo posted:

That's a bit of a turn around from the initial update saying there was nothing they could do

Hopefully it'll give them a bit more momentum

Ugh, so cringy when this stuff isn't handled before launch. Id imagine he lost sales of people who wont check back in.

# ? Aug 4, 2017 04:08

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

So uh is it possible to see if we can pool enough money for an Argent enrollment fund? A kickstarter for a kickstarter? Though I assume with the small amount of goons who want in, that'll be $50-100/person on top of the base $120.

# ? Aug 4, 2017 04:16

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

djfooboo posted:

Ugh, so cringy when this stuff isn't handled before launch. Id imagine he lost sales of people who wont check back in.

I mean on the one hand sure, on the other hand it's over 100% funded with 23 days to go. It's not really a "gotta get them stretch goals" KS either, the most you get out of it is a handful of extra cards for a mini expansion, so by pretty much every practical measure it's already a success.

# ? Aug 4, 2017 06:27

NTRabbit: Aug 15, 2012; i wear this armour to protect myself from the histrionics of hysterical women

bitches

All the local groups, stores, and companies I loosely follow on social media have been repping The Brigade - A Board Game of Fantasy Firefighting since it went up a few days ago, made by a team in Melbourne.

Looks like it could be a cool game, and they have an online version you can try before pledging, which is a pretty neat next step above a free PnP demo

NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Aug 4, 2017

# ? Aug 4, 2017 14:16

Super 3: Dec 31, 2007; Sometimes the powers you get are shit.

Anyone here play test or get any impressions of the CMON GOT up now? I didn't see much commentary except someone mentioning it was 'lovely' but not much context.

# ? Aug 7, 2017 15:07

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

Super 3 posted:

Anyone here play test or get any impressions of the CMON GOT up now? I didn't see much commentary except someone mentioning it was 'lovely' but not much context.

Well it's CMON so billions of exclusives so I won't be backing

# ? Aug 7, 2017 15:32