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Thanks Mods for keeping this thread on track and readable, your strenuous efforts are always appreciated.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:44
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Scent of Worf posted:Your post reads so much like regurgitated propaganda that I had to do a little digging: "I'm concerned you're regurgitating propaganda, let me cite Max Blumenthal on Venezuela"
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Jul 31, 2017 18:47
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Mozi posted:Thanks Mods for keeping this thread on track and readable, your strenuous efforts are always appreciated. this was my favorite thread in D&D stay safe venegoons (and family) 
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Jul 31, 2017 18:52
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Whatever happened to the National Communal Parliament that Maduro was gabbing about after the 2015 election?
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Jul 31, 2017 18:55
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Scent of Worf posted:Your post reads so much like regurgitated propaganda that I had to do a little digging: Hmmm who should I believe the Venezuelans or the guy who had to look up Leopoldo Lopez. I guess I'll never know who is good and who is bad.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:56
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"I'm concerned you're regurgitating propaganda, let me cite Max Blumenthal on Venezuela" I don't know what he's like on Venezuela, but he's one of the few sane voices on Syria. Anyway, does anyone here have links/resources on the election that show clear voter fraud?
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Jul 31, 2017 18:57
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ryde posted:I'm pretty floored by the earnest arguments regarding poorly-educated government leaders earlier in the thread. How can you believe that demanding your leaders to be educated and have experience in governing is some sort of bougie plot rather than just common loving sense? Maduro has decades of political experience, he wasn't plucked off the street. There's no reason someone with his CV couldn't be an excellent leader. That he's actually a grasping bungler is something that comes out at the interview. Dismissing actual relevant experience by glancing at what school someone went to (or didn't go to) is one very direct way class bigotry works, so it's not surprising it rankles.
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Jul 31, 2017 18:58
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tekz posted:I don't know what he's like on Venezuela, but he's one of the few sane voices on Syria. The election was entirely irregular, it didn't use any of the mechanisms that were employed previously to avoid fraud, it didn't even limit people to specific polling booths, which is the easiest way to prevent repeated votes. They didn't allow international observers or witnesses so there's no direct accounts on what happened there, all I can tell you is that no one oversaw the polling or the vote counting, and that the results produced are impossible considering the situation, it's absolutely impossible that more people voted for this Constituent Assembly than they did to vote Maduro in, because the country is on its deepest crisis it has been in its entire history and Maduro no longer has that many supporters. I guess the president himself being shown as having an annulled "Carnet de la Patria" on live television is proof enough that the election was completely fraudulent.
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Jul 31, 2017 19:09
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BeigeJacket posted:Whatever happened to the National Communal Parliament that Maduro was gabbing about after the 2015 election? It didn't go anywhere, but the Constituent Assembly might be its replacement. The Communal Parliament or whatever it was called was supposed to be a parallel institution to the National Assembly. Because the PSUV suffered the worst electoral defeat in its history and lost the National Assembly majority in December 2015, the party scrambled around for a bit trying to figure out how to go on about its business while ignoring the National Assembly (and the will of over 7 million voters). The Communal Assembly would have run parallel to the National Assembly, and we would have had two bodies fighting each other for supremacy. I think it would have worked because the rest of the PSUV-controlled state would have sided with the Communal Assembly, but it would have been really messy. I think that what ended up happening was that the PSUV figured out that it could effectively neutralize the National Assembly through the Supreme Court, which it did. So, the necessity of the Communal Assembly was lessened over time. Because the Constituent Assembly has supra-institutional powers (meaning, whatever it decides cannot be overruled by any institution, including the National Assembly or the Supreme Court), the PSUV finally got what it wanted: absolute control of the country. tekz posted:Anyway, does anyone here have links/resources on the election that show clear voter fraud? The thing to keep in mind about voter fraud is that it's not a guy voting twice, or stuffing ballot boxes with votes. What we've been seeing in Venezuela over the past several months are a series of frauds, each distinct but connected, with the end result being this Constituent Assembly vote. Here are a couple of examples:
EDIT: Eva Golinger is getting cold feet about this whole Maduro thing! If that doesn't shock you into reconsidering your stance towards the regime, I don't know what will. quote:"Chavez never would have let things get out of hand this way. He never would have accepted deaths in the streets every day," added Golinger. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 19:13
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tekz posted:I don't know what he's like on Venezuela, but he's one of the few sane voices on Syria. I'd argue that his bias on Venezuela and Syria are more or less identical. He searches for nefarious involvement by the West in general and America in particular and downplays how nasty Assad and Maduro are. He's probably a pretty good inclusion in a balanced breakfast, since he's actually a fairly solid investigative journalist on the particular topics he's investigating, but I personally mostly disregard his editorializing. edit: don't forget Ukraine, where his main concern has been about western-backed neo-Nazis taking over the government since the protests against Yanukovich started Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 19:23
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Wow that sure is a lot of tankiesplaining. I guess the race space is leaking.
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Jul 31, 2017 19:27
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Shnooks posted:My friends in Venezuela, and my friends with family there, are really scared right now. I want to help them but I'm not sure what to do except to keep them company as best as I can. If you know ways to get them goods then one of the easiest things I was recommending was to try to supply people with radio gear (HAM radios/shortwave gear/handhelds/satphones depending on what you can do.) One of the big things I've found looking at historic emergency response is that loss of communication for even a week. If nobody knows who needs food or water or a shelter for the night then help may never arrive. Especially if a network can be established between enclaves in the city and groups outside the city who have argriculture or other access. A community can help itself if it has a baseline knowledge of what people need and what they can help with. The corollary to this is that the people opposing the fall of democracy need to build strong community ties so that everybody can utilize better communication to make it happen. You can do that now through the Internet, but access isn't ubiquitous and even that may fall off soon if my gut feeling is true. M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 19:36
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Chuck Boone posted:EDIT: Eva Golinger is getting cold feet about this whole Maduro thing! If that doesn't shock you into reconsidering your stance towards the regime, I don't know what will. I honestly don't know what to do with people like Eva Golinger. It's hard to forgive them for giving us so much poo poo for such a long time.
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Jul 31, 2017 19:36
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Bob le Moche posted:I offered to set up a crowdfunding website for this earlier in this thread but nobody was on board Probably b/c the left is full of charlatans who end up being Real Busy whenever actual action is required
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Jul 31, 2017 19:39
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tekz posted:few sane voices on Syria. Let's look at his twitter feed. Bitching about "manufactured" Russian hysteria. How's the whole Son of the loving president live-tweeting incriminating emails treating you mr Blumenthal? It's nice to see you love regimes that enable Islamic Extremists in Chechnya Mr Blumenthal. The way they're putting gay's in concentration camps is admirable isn't it Mr Blumenthal. Defends the actions of Russia in Ukraine and Crimea. Oh dear oh dear. I almost expect there to be a picture of this guy at the table with Jill Stein, Vladimir Putin, and Matt Flynn... He's Sane on Syria? Because Max Blumenthal denies Chemical Attacks perpetrated by Assad by his own people. This is the kind of people you are dealing with and be aware thread. If Maduro had the capabilities of committing a Chemical Weapon attack on his own people and did so he would blame the opposition for it. He's a member of the alt-left. They are no better than the alt-right. Extreme conspiracy theorists who sound a awful lot like the alt-right in their global take. gently caress off Tekz and Go gently caress Yourself.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:06
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Bob le Moche posted:I offered to set up a crowdfunding website for this earlier in this thread but nobody was on board Yeah I don't think anyone wants to fall for another BrotherAziz scam.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:11
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You're not really going to convince people calling anyone who is even mildly suspicious of american motivations in Venezuela or anywhere else a tankie ffs, especially considering it's a mainstream position the entire left holds that didn't magically get put in our skulls by a Marxist-Leninist mind control beam.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:19
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Agnosticnixie posted:You're not really going to convince people calling anyone who is even mildly suspicious of american motivations in Venezuela or anywhere else a tankie ffs, especially considering it's a mainstream position the entire left holds that didn't magically get put in our skulls by a Marxist-Leninist mind control beam. I seem to continue to be pushed further and further away from the American Left by their horrible foreign policy and gun-shyness due to the War in Iraq. They strike me as moral pibsqueaks and idiots of the highest nature. I continue to admire Obama for his foreign policy achievements and hope someone would continue it.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:24
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https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/892102040347955200
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Jul 31, 2017 20:25
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JailTrump posted:I seem to continue to be pushed further and further away from the American Left by their horrible foreign policy and gun-shyness due to the War in Iraq. I, too, am very fond of the death of Honduran lgbt activists and the cholera epidemic in Yemen.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:28
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The attorney general just held a press conference a little while ago in which she said that her office was ignoring yesterday's vote because it was a fraud from the start. She said that the Public Ministry has received lots of complaints from people who were threatened to vote, and that these claims will be investigated. She also accused the Maduro regime of "embezzling [Venezuela] under the guise of a false anti-imperialist discourse", which seems very relevant to where the thread is today. The sanctions are the same as the ones levied against the 25 or so other regime officials targeted by these measures. Any assets that Maduro has in the U.S. are frozen, he is banned from entering the country, and U.S. citizens are banned from conducting business with him. Venezuela dodged a bullet, because wider sanctions against the oil sector or the economy would have been terrible. EDIT: Let me be clear before people start to run away with the wrong version of this thing. There are sanctions targeted directly at Maduro. They freeze his assets in the U.S. and ban him from entering the U.S. The sanctions, like the ones placed on the other regime officials, do not affect Venezuela as a country or the Venezuelan economy. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 20:30
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Agnosticnixie posted:You're not really going to convince people calling anyone who is even mildly suspicious of american motivations in Venezuela or anywhere else a tankie ffs, especially considering it's a mainstream position the entire left holds that didn't magically get put in our skulls by a Marxist-Leninist mind control beam. Dude there's legitimate criticism and skepticism about US motives, and then there's bursting into a thread you've never posted in before to accuse the opposition of being American dupes with minimal evidence and refusing to leave even when long-time posters call your ideas moronic. Similarly, I don't know how many times I've seen it said again and again that the opposition is not fundamentally racially-based and statistically can't be based on its broad support, and yet every day someone who has never posted in this thread seems to appear out of the woodwork to say that it's actually all about racism and everyone who supports the Venezuelan opposition is actually a white nationalist. You can have an intelligent conversation without calling people names, but most of the tankies coming in here don't really care about having an intelligent conversation or listening to anyone here who has actually lived in Venezuela. And most of those are actually being saints and not calling a spade a spade. God bless fnox and the others for putting up with this, but I'm fed up with garbage trolls and their garbage opinions who only recite statistics from Telesur like it's the only unbiased source for Venezuelan news.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:31
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I didn't call, at any point, the opposition american dupes. I said that any regime change that has the US stamp of approval is going to be lurching deeply to the right. That you construed that as your interpretation frankly isn't my problem. Also I've been lurking this thread for months and the only thing I got out of it is that a lot of the pro-opposition guys in here aren't exactly far from the things they claim to be accused of. There's a difference between thinking Maduro is bad and thinking loving sanctions will be anything but a bloodbath for the powerless Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 20:36
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It's direct sanctions on Maduro, not an Iraqi embargo, op.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:40
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Agnosticnixie posted:I didn't call, at any point, the opposition american dupes. I said that any regime change that has the US stamp of approval is going to be lurching deeply to the right. That you construed that as your interpretation frankly isn't my problem. Also I've been lurking this thread for months and the only thing I got out of it is that a lot of the pro-opposition guys in here aren't exactly far from the things they claim to be accused of. I'm sorry if it came off like I was criticizing you specifically. I intended to refer to people like Bob, Scent of Worf, and Thug Lessons (especially the last two who SUDDENLY burst in here yesterday; Bob's been around for a month at least). Like I said, there's a conversation to be had about how much the US should play a role, if at all, as several of the Venezuelan posters have mentioned REPEATEDLY. Or people could blindly repeat conspiracy theories that assume that every person in the opposition is an American stooge. One of these is far more interesting and valuable a conversation than the other. I'm not saying you believe these theories, but that there is a certain kind of poster who does just this (several of whom I have already mentioned). Their antics do nothing to further the conversation since they aren't actually interested in doing anything than angering (EDIT: or more generously, wasting the time of) regular posters by being reflexively anti-American without acknowledging that, at least in this instance, the aims of the US and the people at large are currently the same, namely the overthrow of the PSUV. The bigger question is what the opposition does to ensure that it remains independent of the US's aims and seeks to represent the proper will of the people. And that's a much harder task. ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 20:49
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Bob le Moche posted:And not wanting foreign intervention in Venezuela doesn't make one a supporter of PSUV, yet this the strawmanning that keeps being used against me in this thread. You are essentially a supporter of the PSUV in this thread. You described their actions as those of a "democratically elected government do[ing] things that are popular with the people, that they have been elected for and have a popular mandate to do." You said that "the parliament was suspended because of electoral fraud." You said that "the only support that Maduro still has at this point is from groups and social organizations that are loyal to the Bolivarian revolution and see him as its defender, and as the last line of defense against the dictatorship of the right-wing." You are fully aware that the situation in Venezuela is a total disaster, and you want to acknowledge, in a vague and non-ideological sense, that Maduro and PSUV are currently 'bad', but you don't really want to actually deal with what being bad is. So you essentially describe a good, moral government that bad things have happened to, through no fault of its own, and now things aren't as nice. It's disingenuous.
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Jul 31, 2017 20:57
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Agnosticnixie posted:I, too, am very fond of the death of Honduran lgbt activists and the cholera epidemic in Yemen. LOL It's lovely to see you directly blame Obama for these things. What a pathetically stupid world-view.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:02
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Jul 31, 2017 21:15
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Lol if you think the Venezuelan government the elected government defends the right of private property or that the means of production of most industry are privately owned after last year.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:24
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The police in the country are literally breaking into and robbing people's homes on a daily basis. Hell, multiple videos of it have been posted in this thread.
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Jul 31, 2017 21:29
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Ideology is a cancer
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Jul 31, 2017 21:42
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Ideology is a cancer As is doing a twitter search and deciding that makes you an expert on a subject. Stay safe and fed, Venegoons.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:06
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tekz posted:I don't know what he's like on Venezuela, but he's one of the few sane voices on Syria. Oh yeah, he's great.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:08
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ugh its Troika posted:The police in the country are literally breaking into and robbing people's homes on a daily basis. Hell, multiple videos of it have been posted in this thread. (In extremely genuine leftist voice) "Blue lives matta"
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Jul 31, 2017 22:10
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tekz posted:I don't know what he's like on Venezuela, but he's one of the few sane voices on Syria. No he isn't he's a war crime denier.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:22
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Mozi posted:Thanks Mods for keeping this thread on track and readable, your strenuous efforts are always appreciated. The main D&D mod is a literal, non-ironic tankie. I'm sure he feels justice swelling in his bosom every time bob lamoche or thug lessons shits up the thread with their middle school level understanding of what's happening in VZ and to whom the blame belongs. It's a disgrace.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:30
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I see we made it to the Not True Socialism part of the hand waving.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:45
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gobbagool posted:The main D&D mod is a literal, non-ironic tankie. I'm sure he feels justice swelling in his bosom every time bob lamoche or thug lessons shits up the thread with their middle school level understanding of what's happening in VZ and to whom the blame belongs. It's a disgrace. How the hell did that happen?
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Jul 31, 2017 22:50
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Once the dust finishes settling over the events that occurred on the weekend we'll get a clearer picture of how large a role regime militias (known in Venezuela as colectivos armados) played in the violence. Colectivos have killed at least six people since July 30, all in Tachira and Merida states, and at least 25 or so since April 1. They operate with impunity with the consent of the authorities and are an important part in the regime's repertoire of repression. The video below shows a colectivo attempting to clear a protest barricade in Barquisimeto, Lara state earlier this afternoon: https://twitter.com/CarlosAranaSan/status/892098744275152896 At some point, a colectivo member got into a scuffle with a man who was at the scene. People who watched the scuffle develop tried to help the man who was being assaulted by the armed colectivo member: https://twitter.com/MMalaverM/status/892098398706421761 I'm not sure what happened to the people in the video, but I haven't heard of any fatalities in Barquisimeto today.
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Jul 31, 2017 22:56
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MullardEL34 posted:How the hell did that happen? There's a story about that. In short, Lowtax decided to be "hands on" with the forums earlier this year to make it "safe for people to express their own opinions" after an offsite complained at him for being too "nice to the SJWs" (and, conversely, too strict with Trump fans and tankies). About 1/3 the moderation staff resigned in protest at his handling of the situation, including all the D&D mods. ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 31, 2017 |
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Jul 31, 2017 23:09
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