|
Concerned Citizen posted:as i mentioned earlier in the thread, lgbt community went door to door with long form conversations to talk about their personal experiences, forcing people to confront the targets of their bigotry face-to-face. studies (although there were some retracted studies due to fraud, subsequent ones replicated the original result) have shown it was enormously successful in moving voters. i think healthcare personal stories can be extremely powerful, and they can convince people that the system needs to be reformed toward a single payer system. right now it seems not much work at all to promote single-payer to ordinary people - lot of pressure on elected legislators, but not much targeted at moving actual voters. if people voted for gay marriage, the dems sure ignored their wishes... so you're suggesting single payer wanters wait for the supreme court to rule right to healthcare is in the bill of rights?
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:how so? i think your entire premise is wrong. the demos (rural rust belt whites) were not entrenched, they were democrats as recently as 2012. the turnout dip was not that bad. our biggest source of lost votes were obama voters defecting to trump, and i think the idea that we can't get them back is wrong. I'm saying we should get them back. But the dem establishment strategy in the vein of Hillary targets suburbanites. Those are all lost votes by running on what Obama did, when people want what Obama promised. Why does turnout have to be entrenched voters? I'm sure there's more people that just didn't vote this time than actually defected. And anyone that can go from Obama to Trump only wants a populistish message anyway
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:27
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:john roberts actually voted against it, but anyway the key to the ruling was the sea change in public support that happened very rapidly. and politically, there was also a lot of movement in the states on the issue. p sure the key to the ruling was that it was unconstitutional, SCOTUS don't give a poo poo about public opinion
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:28
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:as i mentioned earlier in the thread, lgbt community went door to door with long form conversations to talk about their personal experiences, forcing people to confront the targets of their bigotry face-to-face. studies (although there were some retracted studies due to fraud, subsequent ones replicated the original result) have shown it was enormously successful in moving voters. i think healthcare personal stories can be extremely powerful, and they can convince people that the system needs to be reformed toward a single payer system. right now it seems not much work at all to promote single-payer to ordinary people - lot of pressure on elected legislators, but not much targeted at moving actual voters. that happened here in colorado. that tactic garnered enough signatures to get on the ballot here in colorado. it was subsequently battered, quashed and shot down by most of the leading democrats in the state, out of state, and by dem-supporting special interest groups like PP. colorado, like california, presented an opportunity for democrats to take an issue that - as you've pointed out - enjoys plurality support amongst their own constituents and actually see it realized. the fact that they ran, screaming, in the opposite direction, tells me that getting the democrats to support SP requires much more.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:p sure the key to the ruling was that it was unconstitutional, SCOTUS don't give a poo poo about public opinion and even if it did, the supreme court can't give us healthcare. and if gay marriage was so popular it swayed the supreme court but not dems, what chance do we have to get singlepayer?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:30
|
|
|
why is CC saying populism is the answer when dems abhor populism and ignore it on principle 
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:31
|
|
|
ex post facho posted:that happened here in colorado. that tactic garnered enough signatures to get on the ballot here in colorado. it was subsequently battered, quashed and shot down by most of the leading democrats in the state, out of state, and by dem-supporting special interest groups like PP. did the campaign for single payer stop once it got on the ballot or something because i would have thought a good thing with enough momentum would have won the day idk I'm not in colorado though i want to visit rocky mountain national park at least once before i die
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
bernie's the pol who's both loudly and consistently supported a SP/MCA program and is the most popular politician in the u.s. i wonder if these two things are connected.  nah me, I just luv2consume healthcare
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:32
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:john roberts actually voted against it, but anyway the key to the ruling was the sea change in public support that happened very rapidly. and politically, there was also a lot of movement in the states on the issue. also nice dodge wrt democrats actually taking no legislative action on gay marriage
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:33
|
|
|
UHD posted:did the campaign for single payer stop once it got on the ballot or something because i would have thought a good thing with enough momentum would have won the day getting stabbed in the back by your own party is really bad for messaging it turns out
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:34
|
|
|
Condiv posted:why is CC saying populism is the answer when dems abhor populism and ignore it on principle because he's full of shite who can't keep up with his contradictions hth thats the problem with too many 
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:34
|
|
|
there's an inherently flawed mindset of the dems that you basically can only chase existing voters instead of also including new ideas that would bring in people that would have otherwise never voted bc the things they're arguing about in dc largely dont affect them too much. like, idk, for example, legalizing weed and shortening jail sentences for convicted possession charges. giving felons the ability to vote again + paying prison laborers a fair wage they can give to their families. you give these people the ability to vote and say "we gave you the ability to vote" loudly and clearly and you just added 6 million potential voters. every dem should be doubling down on voters rights and every single population that can potentially vote probably votes dem bc of suppression, but no ones making that a core issue or a campaign promise. its just nuts how like half our population doesnt vote and hillary's goal was "for every rust belt voter we lose we gain two romney republicans" what about, idk, the millions of college students that are hosed over by voter suppression in places like Wisconsin that could have turned the tides? but nah. you gotta focus on a tiny % of people that might swing one way or the other. not turning out the people who already like you or the millions of people who choose not to vote bc theres no issues that appeal to them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:36
|
|
|
Lastgirl posted:thats the problem with too many is "full socialism now" too many words? I feel like it nearly encapsulates what I'm tryina get across also thank you again bee man
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:36
|
|
|
Lastgirl posted:You have been stung by the Bee Man's Purity thank you bee man
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:36
|
|
|
UHD posted:did the campaign for single payer stop once it got on the ballot or something because i would have thought a good thing with enough momentum would have won the day RMNP is beautiful and has some of the most amazing sights in this stupid awful country. you should come see it. the campaign didn't stop at all, i volunteered for it, called folks, went to meetings. michael bennet, insurance industry stooge that he is, denounced the plan, hickenlooper went out of his way to undermine it, PP went against it, and I believe even abeula saw fit to criticize it. small wonder that with both parties and a shitload of money arrayed against it, it went down in flames. if the democrats had actually given it support and decided yeah colorado is a progressive state getting bluer and this would be the perfect testbed for a national program, i strongly believe it would have passed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:36
|
|
|
ex post facho posted:that happened here in colorado. that tactic garnered enough signatures to get on the ballot here in colorado. it was subsequently battered, quashed and shot down by all of the leading democrats in the state, out of state, and by dem-supporting special interest groups like PP. don't forget that single payer was killed in california by rendon, a dem who got tens of thousands in insurance donations. sends a pretty clear message that dems aren't just cowards afraid to fight for what benefits people, as CC suggests, and instead are actively complicit in stifling what voters want. anyway CC is a good look at the dem mind. even something as stupid as being willing to fund prolife dems, a move that will alienate far more people than it ever could convert, and in a best case scenario puts someone in congress who will be more willing to stand with republicans than democrats for any progressive agenda (as we've seen in 2010) and kill any enthusiasm for the party through infighting, is actually good because if you ignore what's actually happening it could, hypothetically, be good for progressives. can't wait to see how he explains dem losses in 2018, probably by saying that it was inevitable and utterly unavoidable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:37
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:p sure the key to the ruling was that it was unconstitutional, SCOTUS don't give a poo poo about public opinion suffice to say, the constitution as a living document is simply true and same sex marriage being constitutional is not at thing that would have been found in 1965. the rapid political momentum for same sex marriage legitimized it in the eyes of justice kennedy, who cited it in court and in previous opinions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:john roberts actually voted against it, but anyway the key to the ruling was the sea change in public support that happened very rapidly. and politically, there was also a lot of movement in the states on the issue. Maybe it would have happened faster if popular Democratic leaders tried to persuade people it should happen instead of opposing it? Sometimes I think Democratic leaders have the definitions of "leader" and "follower" reversed in their heads.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
really california's vote recently was all i needed to confirm that democrats actually actively oppose a SP/MCA system. another perfect opportunity to implement a revolutionary change that would benefit millions of people and the democrats got scared at the prospect of health insurance megabux disappearing, and poof, gone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:39
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:also nice dodge wrt democrats actually taking no legislative action on gay marriage 10 states plus california took legislative action on gay marriage
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:39
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:suffice to say, the constitution as a living document is simply true and same sex marriage being constitutional is not at thing that would have been found in 1965. the rapid political momentum for same sex marriage legitimized it in the eyes of justice kennedy, who cited it in court and in previous opinions. but how does this get us singlepayer?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:39
|
|
|
ex post facho posted:RMNP is beautiful and has some of the most amazing sights in this stupid awful country. you should come see it. all right, i didn't know since i was looking more at ca stuff at the time, ty
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:42
|
|
|
Condiv posted:but how does this get us singlepayer? single payer doesn't happen without majority support. we're not there yet. but grassroots movements have been successful in the past, and they will be successful again in the future. i think the democratic leadership needs to be bolder and willing to back things people don't want, but that doesn't mean it's a prerequisite for victory. Stexils posted:anyway CC is a good look at the dem mind. even something as stupid as being willing to fund prolife dems, a move that will alienate far more people than it ever could convert, it's like heath mello in reverse!
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:42
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:10 states plus california took legislative action on gay marriage quote:Same-sex marriage is legal in the U.S. state of California, and first became so on June 16, 2008, when the state began issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples as the result of the Supreme Court of California ruling in In re Marriage Cases, which found that barring same-sex couples from marriage violated the state's constitution. The issuance of those licenses was halted during the period of November 5, 2008 through June 27, 2013 (though existing same-sex marriages continued to be valid) due to the passage of Proposition 8—a state constitutional amendment barring same-sex marriages.[1] The granting of same-sex marriages recommenced following the United States Supreme Court decision in Hollingsworth v. Perry, which restored the effect of a federal district court ruling that overturned Proposition 8 as unconstitutional. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_California How many of those other ten were also courts, dude?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:43
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:10 states plus california took legislative action on gay marriage california was court ordered and what did the national party do or even the solid blue northeast states
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:43
|
|
|
like willa i'm basically at the point with dems that if i don't see a clear platform policy statement of single payer or medicare for all they don't get my vote anymore  SP, climate change and IE are the three single biggest issues facing america today and democrats are failing on 2 out of the 3 and get a D on the third.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:43
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:single payer doesn't happen without majority support. we're not there yet. but grassroots movements have been successful in the past, and they will be successful again in the future. i think the democratic leadership needs to be bolder and willing to back things people don't want, but that doesn't mean it's a prerequisite for victory. how much grassroots movement since apparently public support for gay marriage was enough to reach the supreme court's old man justices, but not enough to get dems to lift a finger? seems like literally the entire nation needs to show up in D.C. to convince dems they need to do something about a popular issue
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:45
|
|
|
in a lot of ways republicans are much more willing to listen to and incorporate their grassroots movements into the party than democrats, irony of ironies
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:45
|
|
|
ex post facho posted:in a lot of ways republicans are much more willing to listen to and incorporate their grassroots movements into the party than democrats, irony of ironies Also don't have the lovely super delegate system for their presidential primary process.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:47
|
|
|
ex post facho posted:in a lot of ways republicans are much more willing to listen to and incorporate their grassroots movements into the party than democrats, irony of ironies tbf they dont exactly disagree with the grassroots
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:48
|
|
|
etalian posted:Also don't have the lovely super delegate system for their presidential primary process. Haha, they might next time around.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:49
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:tbf they dont exactly disagree with the grassroots which further highlights how strangely it is that the democrats do when it comes to their grassroots, for a constituent-supported policy that cuts across every demographic in the country......except Dem reps and senators, apparently, lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:50
|
|
|
what a terrible way to go, stung by bees :/
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:51
|
|
|
Weeping Wound posted:what a terrible way to go, stung by bees :/ cc's in purity court. his sentence? impure his punishment? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GadTfGFvU
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:53
|
|
|
anime was right posted:there's an inherently flawed mindset of the dems that you basically can only chase existing voters instead of also including new ideas that would bring in people that would have otherwise never voted bc the things they're arguing about in dc largely dont affect them too much. of course dems chase voters that don't already exist. this is actually the most popular thing among democratic parties - get more students to vote, expand voting rights, help felons vote, register more people to vote, etc. countering voter suppression has been a big dem thing for years. i mean, remember terry mcauliffe auto-penning all those felon rights restorations in virginia because the courts told him he couldn't blanket restore them? dems have been overly-focused on chasing non-voters since obama in 2008. it contributed to losses in 2010 and 2014, as those surge voters in 2008 weren't interested in midterm elections and didn't bother showing up again. the lack of focus on winning people who actually vote has hamstrung our campaigns - you look at places like florida, where turnout was like over 70% (very high by international standards) and it's like, you just don't have much room to go before you start hitting people who just have absolutely no interest in politics and don't want to vote. and the ashes of history are littered with populist campaigns going down in flames when the promised legions never show up. if you want to grow the party, an easy place to start is actually focusing on people who don't need to be convinced to vote but aren't really civically engaged.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:53
|
|
|
for all the talk of the gop being better organized etc in actuality it's basically that Movement Conservatism is more organized, disciplined, and militant in its extra-party manifestations the NRA is effectively a mass organization with an educated, motivated membership the evangelical churches are mass organizations with education, motivated congregants they know who stands where in any election and know which lever to pull there's just not comparable social forces aligned behind a progressive political-economic project
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:53
|
|
|
FuriousxGeorge posted:Haha, they might next time around. Superdelegates would have supported Jeb! due to glass turtle bribes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:53
|
|
|
Weeping Wound posted:what a terrible way to go, stung by bees :/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCfB7hWUAFI
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
FuriousxGeorge posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_California the legislature passed same sex marriage multiple times, and it was veto'ed by schwarzenegger. the other 10 were legislative without court action.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:the legislature passed same sex marriage multiple times, and it was veto'ed by schwarzenegger. the other 10 were legislative without court action. man its like CA dems have a habit of only voting for progressive things when they won't pass Concerned Citizen posted:dems have been overly-focused on chasing non-voters since obama in 2008. it contributed to losses in 2010 and 2014 yeah i'm sure running away from obama contributed nothing to that
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2017 00:00
|
|