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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Latin Americans do not have agency and are in fact incapable of existing as anything other than either an imperialist stooge or a noble revolutionary. I don't think you know what agency means
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Aug 1, 2017 04:35
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I'm getting the feeling that the latest people defending Maduro are just reciting Bolivar's whiniest letters ergo " 1. America is ungovernable. 2. Who serves a revolution plows the sea. 3. The only thing you can do in America is to leave. 4. This country will fall inevitably into the hands of the frenzied crowd, then go to almost imperceptible tyrants, of all colors and races. 5. Devoured by all the crimes and extinguished by ferocity, Europeans will not deign to reconquer us. 6 °. If it were possible, this part of the world would devolve back to primitive chaos,"
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Aug 1, 2017 04:53
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't think you know what agency means 
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Aug 1, 2017 04:58
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't think you know what agency means But you agree with the second part, right?
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Aug 1, 2017 05:45
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Earlier tonight, Antonio Ledezma, the Mayor of Caracas that was detained by the SEBIN (our intelligence police, which nowadays just does the government's dirty work) in 2015 and who has been under house arrest for most of that time, posted a video criticizing the MUD for its inefficiency and blasting the government. From what I've seen, it was received very positively. He was just taken away from his home by the SEBIN in the middle of the night to God knows where. That's the kind of government that some people are defending in this thread – common thugs that break into your house in the middle of the night to drag you away when you do something they don't like. By the way, everyone should consider using the "Ignore" feature liberally. The thread is about 90% better without Bob and Scent of Wolf. It's a waste of time having the same arguments over and over with the same people. Update: The SEBIN also kidnapped Leopoldo from his home. It'd be insane if they threw them back into prison, but I wouldn't be surprised. Update 2: Here's a video of the moment when they kidnapped Ledezma. He was still in his pajamas when they dragged him away. I think the woman yelling is one of his neighbors and she's saying "They're taking Ledezma away!" over and over. https://twitter.com/gabyarellanoVE/status/892256267191844864 Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 06:11
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Jesús Christ What was the point of releasing him then?
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Aug 1, 2017 06:29
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They're not even subtle. gently caress this poo poo, man.
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Aug 1, 2017 06:33
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The disappearing has begun. It's pretty revealing when a regime claims to be leftist but uses 80's death squad tactics against dissidents. They aren't going to start killing people, are they?
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Aug 1, 2017 07:00
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NATO, by forcing Putin to sell Chavez the weapons Maduro will use to crush his opponents, is really at fault for the coming humanitarian disaster in Venezuela.
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Aug 1, 2017 07:07
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Some of the stuff maduro says and does is so absurd I wonder if venezuela is a Tropioco 6 ad.
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Aug 1, 2017 07:11
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JailTrump posted:Jesús Christ What was the point of releasing him then? I think we are far too eager to assign Machiavellian powers to the actors in this particular drama. Real life isn't an episode of game of thrones. Everything that I've seen and read about the PSUV leads me to the inescapable conclusion that they are winging this poo poo day to day.
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Aug 1, 2017 10:11
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MullardEL34 posted:The disappearing has begun. It's pretty revealing when a regime claims to be leftist but uses 80's death squad tactics against dissidents. The instant they incorporated the military into their massive corruption schemes they ensured that nobody would have the power to remove them without first defeating the armed forces whose officers now have a strong incentive to stay rich with the status quo. They're just going to keep their boots on the necks of average Venezuelans until the money dries up.
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Aug 1, 2017 10:44
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Interesting read on the opposition in Venezuela being marginalized by Maduro. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/...jHr2GpWMr?amp=1
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Aug 1, 2017 11:49
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Labradoodle posted:Earlier tonight, Antonio Ledezma, the Mayor of Caracas that was detained by the SEBIN (our intelligence police, which nowadays just does the government's dirty work) in 2015 and who has been under house arrest for most of that time, posted a video criticizing the MUD for its inefficiency and blasting the government. From what I've seen, it was received very positively. He was just taken away from his home by the SEBIN in the middle of the night to God knows where. That's the kind of government that some people are defending in this thread – common thugs that break into your house in the middle of the night to drag you away when you do something they don't like. Here's a clip of Lopez getting dragged out: https://twitter.com/liliantintori/status/892270054045253634 This chilled me to the bone when I woke up this morning and read about it. drat. Dragged from their homes without a warrant by masked men. You're probably familiar with the Leopoldo Lopez case, so I won't go into it (unless someone wants to know more about it). Antonio Ledezma was the mayor of Caracas until he was arrested for "crimes against peace, security and the Constitution". He was released into house arrest not too long after serving some time in prison. When both Lopez and Ledezma were arrested, it was clear that the regime had singled them out because they were some of the highest-profile names in the opposition. The fact that they've both just been apparently re-sent to prison for no reason tells me that whatever soft-line faction inside the PSUV got them released lost an argument to the hard-line faction. EDIT: In other news, it is now Tuesday morning and the CNE has yet to officially release the results of the Constituent Assembly election. All we got on Sunday was Tibisay Lucena's word that 8 million had voted. The regime has yet to release any data/report to support that. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 12:36
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Is that the same Lopez I posted about earlier? The guy who was one of the plotters in the coup of 2002 and who has tried to rebrand himself with the help of his cousin?quote:During events surrounding the 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt, NPR said Lopez "orchestrated the public protests against President Hugo Chávez and played a central role in the citizen's arrest of Chavez's interior minister", Ramón Rodríguez Chacín. Lopez later tried to distance himself from that event,[21 from his wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopoldo_L%C3%B3pez And also; quote:But news reports, parliamentary records, U.S. government documents, video recordings, and interviews show that López was not quite as remote from the coup attempt and its plotters as he and his representatives claim. Coup leaders and Carmona signatories included figures who were at the time, or are now, members of López’s inner circle. Harvard-educated Leopoldo Martínez, for several years an opposition leader in parliament, led Primero Justicia with López; he was designated finance minister of the short-lived Carmona government. Maria Corina Machado, López’s closest ally, who joined him in calling for last February’s protests, was a signatory; as was Manuel Rosales, a former leader of Un Nuevo Tiempo, a party that López joined and helped build in 2007 (and was expelled from in 2009). Also among the roughly 400 business, military, media, and political figures to sign the decree during a raucous ceremony in April 2002 at Miraflores — while Chávez was being held, not far away, at a military installation — was Leopoldo López Gil, López’s father. quote:Last May, at the rally for political prisoners in Caracas, I approached López Sr. to ask about his decision to sign. “I didn’t, none of us who were there, signed any ‘decree,’” he said. “What they passed around was an attendance sheet that later was misrepresented. How were we going to sign something we hadn’t even seen?” But video of the Carmona signing on April 12, which only came to light in recent years, speaks to a different reality: A crowded room of men in suits cheer as the parts of the decree dissolving all branches of government are read to thundering applause by Daniel Romero, Carmona’s attorney general designate. The video also shows Carmona being sworn in as president, and Romero inviting the attendees to “sign the decree that was just read, in support of the process.” quote:Other contemporaneous video evidence seems to indicate enormous enthusiasm by López for Chávez’s ouster. In one news broadcast of the pivotal PDVSA protest rally in Caracas on April 9, 2002, a baseball-capped López steps onto the stage to lead the crowd of tens of thousands in a chorus of “Not one step backwards!” At the top of his voice, he yells: “We’ll be here all night and tomorrow all day until the president leaves!” (“The protests and march,” said López’s attorney, “were not an attempted coup — they only were transformed into that later, and not by him.”) quote:In his book chronicling the events of April 2002, My Testimony Before History, Carmona indicates that the April 11 march was originally headed to PDVSA headquarters but was rerouted to the presidential palace, where pro-Chávez protesters had already gathered. When the two sides met near the palace, the conflict turned deadly, with 19 protesters — from both sides — shot and killed. Carmona writes that he “consulted with” López and that the protest’s fatal route change was “authorized by Mayor Leopoldo López.” From http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/27/the-making-of-leopoldo-lopez-democratic-venezuela-opposition/ Great in-depth article from FP that goes beyond the propaganda that's out there about the man and lays out a clearer picture.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:03
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Chuck Boone posted:
Do we know much about the different factions in the PSUV? Do they take their disputes public? Apart from the Attorney General lady they seem to have put up a remarkably united front so far.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:09
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Scent of Worf posted:Is that the same Lopez I posted about earlier? The guy who was one of the plotters in the coup of 2002 and who has tried to rebrand himself with the help of his cousin? You unbelievable oval office. They literally just abducted two opposition leaders in the dead of night wearing masks, without a warrant, and now nobody knows where they are and the very first thing you do is justify it? Mate, what the gently caress is wrong with you? Edmond Dantes fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 13:09
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It's not a good look to start victim blaming someone who just got taken away by the secret loving police.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:11
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Scent of Worf posted:Is that the same Lopez I posted about earlier? The guy who was one of the plotters in the coup of 2002 and who has tried to rebrand himself with the help of his cousin? Worf, I can see that you're trying hard to become more informed about Venezuela, but you're still missing a lot of context. Lopez wasn't arrested for what he did in 2002 or for what he said at a baseball game in 2009. If those things were crimes, he was not arrested for them. When those events happened the government did not charge him with a crime. Those things happened, the government knew about them, and the government said "Well, those aren't crimes, so let's not arrest him and send him to jail". You may not like what he said at that baseball game eight years ago, but I argue that we shouldn't put people in jail simply for doing or saying things that we do not like. Lopez was arrested in February 2014 for allegedly instigating the violence that occurred in Caracas on February 12 of that year. He was charged with a range of crimes, including public instigation and arson. His trial was a sham. One of the prosecutors on his case later defected Venezuela and has said in numerous interviews that he was under strict orders to falsify evidence against Lopez, that the entire case against him was a sham, and that Lopez is completely innocent of the crimes of which he was committed. Human Rights Watch, the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights, Amnesty International, and a whole host of other international and local NGOS have decried Lopez's arrest, trial and detention as a gross violation against human rights and the rule of law, and have made repeated calls for his release. Lopez is innocent and should not be in prison. You can dig around Google all day and find things that he has said and done that you do not like. But the fact of the matter is that Lopez was arrested and sentenced to 14 years in prison simply for speaking out against the government and that he is innocent of the crimes of which he was convicted, and he should not be in prison. EDIT: I don't mean to attack you, but your obvious lack of knowledge about the Venezuelan crisis means that you're not in a position to tell anyone what "a great in-depth article" on Venezuela is, or what counts or doesn't count as propaganda. Just because you read something that lines up with how you feel about a topic doesn't mean that it's a good or fair article. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 13:14
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AstraSage posted:That would be me. Sorry that happened but glad she still has help. Buena suerte.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:17
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Scent of Worf posted:Is that the same Lopez I posted about earlier? The guy who was one of the plotters in the coup of 2002 and who has tried to rebrand himself with the help of his cousin? You didn't even know about Leopoldo Lopez until yesterday you massively ignorant tool. You know nothing about Venezuela, you know nothing about the crisis, you know nothing about the people. Get the gently caress out.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:18
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Edmond Dantes posted:You unbelievable oval office. They literally just abducted two opposition leaders in the dead of night wearing masks, without a warrant, and now nobody knows where they are and the very first thing you do is justify it? Mate, what the gently caress is wrong with you? I don't think it's justifying to want to know the facts rather than what the propaganda arm of elite millionaires feeds us. You can think that what the PSUV is doing is awful, and you can also admit that this man played an important role in the coup of a democratically elected leader not long ago. He was ready to throw away the constitution and supreme court just like Maduro is currently doing. Chuck Boone posted:Worf, I can see that you're trying hard to become more informed about Venezuela, but you're still missing a lot of context. I think that what he was doing was much more than simply saying he didn't like the Chavez administration and played a much bigger role than what his lawyers claim he did, but yes I know that his current arrest was on bogus charges and his arrest probably simply stems from maduro's fear of him becoming more popular.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:21
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e: nvm, theres enough shitposting in the thread already
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Aug 1, 2017 13:24
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we can't be too hard on the secret police after all the accused were no angels
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Aug 1, 2017 13:25
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Labradoodle posted:Earlier tonight, Antonio Ledezma, the Mayor of Caracas that was detained by the SEBIN (our intelligence police, which nowadays just does the government's dirty work) in 2015 and who has been under house arrest for most of that time, posted a video criticizing the MUD for its inefficiency and blasting the government. From what I've seen, it was received very positively. He was just taken away from his home by the SEBIN in the middle of the night to God knows where. That's the kind of government that some people are defending in this thread – common thugs that break into your house in the middle of the night to drag you away when you do something they don't like. i honestly dont think he is just being "arrested", i honestly they might be dead already. i hope i am wrong. maduro and co are already firing on crowds and shits falling apart for him and the US just froze his stash money. he probaly wants to try to end it quick now.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:27
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Scent of Worf posted:I think that what he was doing was much more than simply saying he didn't like the Chavez administration and played a much bigger role than what his lawyers claim he did, but yes I know that his current arrest was on bogus charges and his arrest probably simply stems from maduro's fear of him becoming more popular. You literally don't know this. All you have to demonize him is a loving hunch. How much will you struggle to comprehend that the little you know about the country comes from government propaganda? Or what, do you honestly think the Maduro government doesn't do propaganda?
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Aug 1, 2017 13:28
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Scent of Worf posted:I think that what he was doing was much more than simply saying he didn't like the Chavez administration and played a much bigger role than what his lawyers claim he did, but yes I know that his current arrest was on bogus charges and his arrest probably simply stems from maduro's fear of him becoming more popular. You admit, then, that the stuff you posted earlier is 100% irrelevant to the current discussion, and that the fact that Lopez was dragged out of his home by what amounts to a regime terror squad was wrong. Why bring up that irrelevant stuff, then? Why not read up what Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights and the prosecutor, Franklin Nieves, have said about Lopez before coming in here to justify dictatorial terror?
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Aug 1, 2017 13:28
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Zikan posted:we can't be too hard on the secret police after all the accused were no angels Funny; "They must have done something" is literally what was said about people that got kidnapped (and then thrown from planes into the River Plate) during the military dictatorship in Argentina by supporters.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:30
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fnox posted:You literally don't know this. All you have to demonize him is a loving hunch. How much will you struggle to comprehend that the little you know about the country comes from government propaganda? Or what, do you honestly think the Maduro government doesn't do propaganda? Hold on are you saying Foreign Policy is pushing PSUV propaganda? Chuck Boone posted:Again, not to attack you, but you must understand that there's a difference between uninformed opinion and fact. Your uninformed opinion about what Lopez meant when he said something at a baseball game eight years ago, or what his lawyers said (what did they say, by the way?) is just that: uninformed opinion. Have you actually read the article? the FP is citing sources from 2002 or not far from there. If you have any sources that disprove FP's claims I'll gladly check them out
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Aug 1, 2017 13:36
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Los venezolanos somos elecciones y democráticas.
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Aug 1, 2017 13:39
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interesting strategy trying to run interface for secret police kidnappings of opposition figures a very good look for you imo
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Aug 1, 2017 13:47
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Scent of Worf posted:Hold on are you saying Foreign Policy is pushing PSUV propaganda? Yes I am, it appears you refused to read the rebuttal to said article or its clarifications, you also failed to look into the author, who has only published in Foreign Policy once and only to make this article, and that is instead a regular writer for Telesur. I am saying your insanely limited understanding of the situation in Venezuela stems mostly from sources that are buying into PSUV propaganda like Telesur or VenezuelaAnalysis, and that you have never bothered to give even a cursory glance to the other side. I'm saying you're horribly biased towards one view of the situation that you desperately want to be right, despite the facts not adding up. fnox fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 13:48
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i honestly dont think he is just being "arrested", i honestly they might be dead already. i hope i am wrong. maduro and co are already firing on crowds and shits falling apart for him and the US just froze his stash money. he probaly wants to try to end it quick now. They're both back in Ramo Verde, actually. That's the military prison where Lopez spent the past few years. During which he was tortured, isolated often, his private conversations with his wife and family recorded, and otherwise humiliated by his captors for the results of a trial that anyone with two fingers in front of their face knows was a sham. I'm adding that clarification for our new friend that seems to enjoy defending dictators and their abuses because Lopez did and said some rash things in the past.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:03
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fnox posted:Yes I am, it appears you refused to read the rebuttal to said article or its clarifications, you also failed to look into the author, who has only published in Foreign Policy once and only to make this article, and that is instead a regular writer for Telesur. I am saying your insanely limited understanding of the situation in Venezuela stems mostly from sources that are buying into PSUV propaganda like Telesur or VenezuelaAnalysis, and that you have never bothered to give even a cursory glance to the other side. I'm saying you're horribly biased towards one view of the situation that you desperately want to be right, despite the facts not adding up. Thanks for the link, but after reading that article it mostly deals with Lopez's unjust arrest (which I already know was based on trumped up charges) and what happened thereafter. My initial post was focused on his support of the 2002 Coup, a detail which many seem to leave out.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:05
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lol it's literally the no angel defense
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Aug 1, 2017 14:11
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Scent of Worf posted:Thanks for the link, but after reading that article it mostly deals with Lopez's unjust arrest (which I already know was based on trumped up charges) and what happened thereafter. My initial post was focused on his support of the 2002 Coup, a detail which many seem to leave out. Yes a number of people and parties supported the 2002 coup. No it didn't work. What it instead did was grant legitimacy to Chavez claims of imperialist intervention and is what allowed him to stay in power until his death. To this day, Chavistas use the 2002 coup as a justification for the increasingly authoritarian actions of the government today. Venezuela today is not what it was in 2002, maybe then there was a case for interventionism. Not anymore.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:13
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Seriously, Scent of Worf, just STOP for a second. You are defending a government sending secret police without a warrant to vanish people in the night.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:26
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Scent of Worf posted:Thanks for the link, but after reading that article it mostly deals with Lopez's unjust arrest (which I already know was based on trumped up charges) and what happened thereafter. My initial post was focused on his support of the 2002 Coup, a detail which many seem to leave out. It doesn't really matter if he did something heinous in the government's eyes fifteen years ago, you should not be defending the masked men dragging him out of his house in the dead of night without charges or due process. The rules are there to protect everyone, and when the rules are no longer valued then no one is safe.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:27
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Chuck Boone posted:Why bring up that irrelevant stuff, then? It's relevant to getting an understanding of the situation if it's what people believe and what motivates their actions. It's relevant if this is the picture of Lopez that people who support his arrest have, no matter if they've been fed it by propaganda, or it's not proper legal justification, or whatever, because it *is* a factor in understanding what is going on! (beyond "PSUV is just craaazy") By systematically leaving out of your reporting any allusion to any narrative out there that makes the opposition look bad, and reacting super defensively when someone asks you why you did so, you run the risk of being the one who comes off as a propaganda mouthpiece to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. People who've been reading this thread were confused about why they were hearing about someone being set on fire, and other things that were never mentioned in pro-opposition outlets or acts of violence by the opposition. They genuinely believed it was made up of whole cloth by crazy people because they trusted you to have told them about it otherwise. When you paint a heroic picture of this Lopez guy, and people later find out about his role in the 2002 coup or whatever, it should be expected that they wonder why you omitted that detail, feel like you've been manipulative with them, and lose trust in your reporting.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:31
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Bob le Moche posted:It's relevant to getting an understanding of the situation if it's what people believe and what motivates their actions. It's relevant if this is the picture of Lopez that people who support his arrest have, no matter if they've been fed it by propaganda, or it's not proper legal justification, or whatever, because it *is* a factor in understanding what is going on! (beyond "PSUV is just craaazy") By systematically leaving out of your reporting any allusion to any narrative out there that makes the opposition look bad, and reacting super defensively when someone asks you why you did so, you run the risk of being the one who comes off as a propaganda mouthpiece to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. People who've been reading this thread were confused about why they were hearing about someone being set on fire, and other things that were never mentioned in pro-opposition outlets or acts of violence by the opposition. They genuinely believed it was made up of whole cloth by crazy people because they trusted you to have told them about it otherwise.
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Aug 1, 2017 14:34
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