Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Disinterested posted:

If we're not calling Franco a fascist we're definitely not calling de Gaulle one.

I would call Franco a fascist. I'm a layman though

# ? Aug 1, 2017 01:50

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# ? May 13, 2024 10:36

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

It's a point about differentiating the kind of authoritarian strongman that's always existed vs something new and different

# ? Aug 1, 2017 01:56

Cat Hassler: Feb 7, 2006; Slippery Tilde

Just popping in to say I read Neptune's Inferno because of this thread and it was a great book

# ? Aug 1, 2017 02:05

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

HEY GAIL posted:

But in a break with everything I ever thought about Fascism, most of the alt right doesn't talk about this at all. Maybe I haven't found it yet. But maybe that wasn't an essential part of fascism after all, maybe the Germans and Italians had just got out of ww1, the Germans had that weird duty thing ever since Kant, the Spanish had been goth since the Baroque anyway, and the Japanese already had a tradition of aesthetic responses toward a freely chosen death. Maybe the whole thing was accidental. If so, I was completely wrong as hell, which fascinates me.

StashAugustine posted:

The issue is the altright is lame as hell

,

I think the alt right death cult is suitably lame. They embrace and romanticize their own social death.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 02:52

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

I really, really don't think the alt right qualifies as fascist, at least in its current incarnation.

As for Japan, my argument for them not being fascist is that they didn't have a strong ideological opposition to a fundamentally opposed political order - be it communism, liberalism, etc. The purpose of their aggression was focused along imperial lines.

If imperial expansion and a morbid death cult of sacrifice to the state is enough to be fascist, then Victorian England (at least as understood by Kipling et al) was fascist.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 02:54

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Siivola posted:

Looking from the outside in, I often feel like Americans in general are one step away from a weird death cult. For example, to me it's a profoundly weird, early modern kind of notion that packing a gun just in case you find your loved ones in mortal danger is the responsible thing to do. And then I go to TFR and people are excitedly posting about their cool new goon-made IWB holster.

Do you wear a seat belt when you drive? Agree with the risk assessment or not, it's the same mentality - taking a precautionary measure to guard against a low risk, high consequence event. You can disagree with the logic all you want, but it's nowhere near the same kind of focus on death itself that you see in glorification of self sacrifice to the state. It isn't dulce et decorum est, it's fear for one's safety. Rational fear or paranoia is another discussion entirely (and entirely case by case - there are LBGTQ self firearms oriented defense advocacy groups for example) but it's not in the same mental space as fascist thought on death.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 02:58

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Cyrano4747 posted:

As for Japan, my argument for them not being fascist is that they didn't have a strong ideological opposition to a fundamentally opposed political order - be it communism, liberalism, etc. The purpose of their aggression was focused along imperial lines.

1930s Japan was absolutely fanatically anti-Communist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokutai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism_in_Sh%C5%8Dwa_Japan

quote:

If imperial expansion and a morbid death cult of sacrifice to the state is enough to be fascist, then Victorian England (at least as understood by Kipling et al) was fascist.

Seems reasonable, actually

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:01

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

icantfindaname posted:

Seems reasonable, actually

Congratulations, you've fallen in to the trap everyone in the field is trying to avoid: making the term so expansive it covers everything, and, therefore, nothing.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:03

Remulak: Jun 8, 2001; I can't count to four.; Yams Fan

Cyrano4747 posted:

Also happy 100th panache deli.

Send a salami to ya boy in da army.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:04

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Cyrano4747 posted:

I really, really don't think the alt right qualifies as fascist, at least in its current incarnation.

As for Japan, my argument for them not being fascist is that they didn't have a strong ideological opposition to a fundamentally opposed political order - be it communism, liberalism, etc. The purpose of their aggression was focused along imperial lines.

If imperial expansion and a morbid death cult of sacrifice to the state is enough to be fascist, then Victorian England (at least as understood by Kipling et al) was fascist.

They weren't? #RememberZulus #ZuluNation

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:08

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Disinterested posted:

Congratulations, you've fallen in to the trap everyone in the field is trying to avoid: making the term so expansive it covers everything, and, therefore, nothing.

that's the thing, everyone loving knows what totalitarian communism looks like, because its proponents will tell you. fascism? you're left reading the loving tea leaves with cultural history

Cyrano4747 posted:

I really, really don't think the alt right qualifies as fascist, at least in its current incarnation.

can you say why you think that?
*violent
*nationalist
*authoritarian
*palingenetic
*unites populism with a belief in the rule of an elite
*white supremacist
*leader cult
*hatred of parliamentary democracy, reason, decision-making
*anti "degeneration"
*belief in art as a form of magic and the political leader as a kind of artist

that looks fascist to me

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:16

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Remulak posted:

Send a salami to ya boy in da army.

ey

EY

people are postin ova hea
https://twitter.com/nycguidovoice?lang=de

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:17

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Can you have a death cult if its about making other people's sacrifices beautiful?

Because if there's one thing about modern conservatives, it's that responsibility is for other people

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:25

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

HEY GAIL posted:

can you say why you think that?

quote:

Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. Caussidi�re for Danton, Louis Blanc for Robespierre, the Montagne of 1848 to 1851 for the Montagne of 1793 to 1795, the nephew for the uncle. And the same caricature occurs in the circumstances of the second edition of the Eighteenth Brumaire.

https://twitter.com/HotlineJosh/status/892154610441498624

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:36

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

they were farce already, goebbels was handicapable anthony wiener does a fascism and his phd was about as valid as seb's up there

# ? Aug 1, 2017 03:41

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

HEY GAIL posted:

Yeah, even now you have people who resist the idea that Fascism wasn't traditionalist, it was modern, even revolutionary. That's why even though i'm a liberal I can't call myself a "progressive," I reject the premise that something's good just because it happens later than something else. Lots of times, the passage of time brings something worse.

Yeah some of the theories of the natural progress of civilization that developed in the 19th century including many connected with British liberalism could be really dark and disturbing if you actually looked at them. In fact a strain of thought developed connected to social darwinism that genocide was not only natural and unavoidable, but actually good.

Sven Lindqvist in Exterminate All the Brutes posted:

Can the dark races become civilized? "I should say not:' says Knox [author of The Races of Man: A fragment (1850), an early attempt to elaborate scientific racism]. ''Their future history, then, must resemble the past. The Saxon race will never tolerate them-never amalgamate-never be at peace . . . . The hottest actual war ever waged-the bloodiest of Napoleon's campaigns - is not equal to that now waging between our descendants in America and the dark races; it is a war of extermination- inscribed on each banner is a death's head and no surrender; one or other must fall.'

"I blame them not:' Knox goes on. "I pretend not even to censure: man acts from his impulses, his animal impulses, and he occasionally employs his pure reason to mystify and conceal his motives from others.'

The Americans were presumably already on their way to extinction when the Europeans first arrived. "Now, the fate of all these nations must be the same; it results from the nature of their populations, and nothing can arrest it.'

Look at South America. The Saxon spirit of progress there led to massacres of the natives. "Have we done with the Hottentots and Bosjeman race ? I suppose so: they will soon form merely
natural curiosities : already there is the skin of one stuffed in England; another in Paris if! mistake not . . . . In a word, they are fast disappearing from the face of the earth.'

And Chinese, Mongolians, Tartars or whatever they are called, how will things go for them? Well, it is known what happened in Tasmania. The Anglo-Saxon swept the natives out of their own country. ''No compunctious visitings about the 'fell swoop' which extinguished a race."

English theorists such as Knox would be at first criticized most aggressively for their callousness and cruelty by German intellectuals. Well, until Germany got some colonies of her own, and then suddenly exterminating hottentots seemed like a really good idea. It's hard not to to see connections to these ideas with later fascist thought on race conflict and struggle.

Disinterested posted:

Congratulations, you've fallen in to the trap everyone in the field is trying to avoid: making the term so expansive it covers everything, and, therefore, nothing.

Isn't this a common modern critic of other historical ideologies/systems of government like feudalism? Every case of feudalism is so different it begins to break down as a distinct phenomena.

Squalid fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Aug 1, 2017

# ? Aug 1, 2017 04:01

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Squalid posted:

Isn't this a common modern critic of other historical ideologies/systems of government like feudalism? Every case of feudalism is so different it begins to break down as a distinct phenomena.

Yep. Feudal is a word medievalists will use, and they will use manorialism, but feudalism is pretty retired now. Too many different countries that are too different.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 04:16

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Nebakenezzer posted:

I can't tell if this is sarcasm but I will say I almost couldn't believe it when in C-SPAM I saw people defending the NKs as "victims of imperialism."

I agree with you in that the context the phrase gets used in is pretty much always just tankies trying to give a massively warped take on the situation today, but North Koreans were pretty plainly victims of imperialism. Decades of colonial rule, then emerging from that only to get your country split in half by the global hegemons of the time; it's a stretch to call it all anything else, and it's a very important part towards understanding a lot of North Korean attitudes. On the other hand of course, it does gently caress all to justify any of the stuff their government is doing in the present day.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 04:20

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Disinterested posted:

Yep. Feudal is a word medievalists will use, and they will use manorialism, but feudalism is pretty retired now. Too many different countries that are too different.

It's also worth noting that histories of feudalism in the past were often used (even by great historians) as illustrations of how European countries took different paths: England, with a more contractual, common law structure, toward liberalism; Germany and France, with Roman law, towards authoritarianism. I quote my former supervisor:

quote:

The most outspoken upholder of the thesis that feudalism was a set of values about right and law embodying a contractual right of resistance wrote chiefly in English, even if he was Austrian by birth. In the hands of Walter Ullmann, Bloch's concluding comments, filtered through Sydney Painter's observation to the effect that:

The fundamental features of the feudal system passed in to our political tradition

became the foundation of a grand theory accounting for the divergent political traditions between England and the rest of Europe in the later middle ages and the early-modern period. Ullman's practical thesis of medieval government is not merely the warmest, most replete, most thoroughly exaggerated compliment to Englishness paid by any of the German and Austrian historians exiled by National Socialism. Despite its unsalvageable wrong-headedness it remains one of the strongest articulations of the claims of medieval history as a serious object of study and reflection.

Just comes to mind given our previous sonderweg chat.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 04:26

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Is it accepted that the post-Glorious Revolution Parliament is a body with substantial institutional continuity with the "feudal" period, or not really?

# ? Aug 1, 2017 05:29

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

HEY GAIL posted:

that's the thing, everyone loving knows what totalitarian communism looks like, because its proponents will tell you. fascism? you're left reading the loving tea leaves with cultural history

can you say why you think that?
*violent
*nationalist
*authoritarian
*palingenetic
*unites populism with a belief in the rule of an elite
*white supremacist
*leader cult
*hatred of parliamentary democracy, reason, decision-making
*anti "degeneration"
*belief in art as a form of magic and the political leader as a kind of artist

that looks fascist to me

I mean, I think the alt right is a bit too diffuse to call it anything in particular at the moment; there's no one strong ideological theorist out there driving them, just dank frog memes. I think they could quite happily become fascists if a specifically fascist leader arose for them to coalesce around.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 10:05

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

FastestGunAlive posted:

I uhhh don't even uhh huh? What?

R Guyovich or whatever his name is. I'm reasonably sure it's a gimmick.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 10:13

GotLag: Jul 17, 2005; 食べちゃダメだよ

I've read in here about how the Nazi party inserted itself into pretty much every aspect of life in Nazi Germany, did other fascist parties do the same in their own countries?

# ? Aug 1, 2017 10:21

aphid_licker: Jan 7, 2009

So after reading fascismchat I have a scrub-tier question. If there's a caveman chieftain with very strong opinions about evicting that other tribe from the swamp with the tasty frogs in it and a penchant for hitting people who question his decisions with a club etc. there's no sense in calling that guy fascist, right? What would you call that guy? Authoritarian? Or like a mafia boss, can that guy be fascist in terms of how he's running his enterprise if he has a weird thing about dying for the cause and ticks some other boxes? I think what I'm having trouble with is the difference between fascism and being a brutal rear end in a top hat, fascism is a specific subtype of authoritarianism / brutal assholism basically?

# ? Aug 1, 2017 11:50

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

feedmegin posted:

I mean, I think the alt right is a bit too diffuse to call it anything in particular at the moment; there's no one strong ideological theorist out there driving them, just dank frog memes. I think they could quite happily become fascists if a specifically fascist leader arose for them to coalesce around.

Would you say the same thing about all those little hosed up groups in Germany before/during the rise of Hitler? Or maybe someone who was into Roehm before the SA fell out of favor and Hitler killed him? The mental ingredients are still there.

And the point Disinterested was making is that there's almost never a strong ideological theorist, that's not how fascism operates (and with their contempt for the intellect it might be not how they operate by definition).

# ? Aug 1, 2017 12:06

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

HEY GAIL posted:

] when I say that I want to go armed in the future in order to protect myself and my partner, it means I want to preserve my life, I want to live as long as possible. But lots of Fascist thought fixates on the idea that the writer or reader will die--and when he does, that it will be heroic, beautiful, morbidly sexual, etc.

Cyrano4747 posted:

You can disagree with the logic all you want, but it's nowhere near the same kind of focus on death itself that you see in glorification of self sacrifice to the state. It isn't dulce et decorum est, it's fear for one's safety.

Okay yeah, fair enough.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 12:32

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

aphid_licker posted:

So after reading fascismchat I have a scrub-tier question. If there's a caveman chieftain with very strong opinions about evicting that other tribe from the swamp with the tasty frogs in it and a penchant for hitting people who question his decisions with a club etc. there's no sense in calling that guy fascist, right? What would you call that guy? Authoritarian? Or like a mafia boss, can that guy be fascist in terms of how he's running his enterprise if he has a weird thing about dying for the cause and ticks some other boxes? I think what I'm having trouble with is the difference between fascism and being a brutal rear end in a top hat, fascism is a specific subtype of authoritarianism / brutal assholism basically?

It's a tough nut, because fascism has more like a 'group of boxes to tick', and if they hit at least some of them, they may be fascist.

Brutal assholes are brutal assholes, but if they glorify the national identity and/or race, combat unions and place collective responsibility for the woes of the world on select groups, then they're probably fascists. I can't get anymore specific than that, because you can have brutal assholes that base their project on non-fascist ideologies or none at all.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 12:41

bewbies: Sep 23, 2003; Fun Shoe

wait a minute, "nork" is racist now?

# ? Aug 1, 2017 13:54

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

StashAugustine posted:

Thanks, that's interesting! I just made a drive-by shitpost (the Navy needs more women so good Christian sailors aren't tempted by homosexuality) and he got angry so I figured I better have sources when I have a laptop to seriouspost

I'm reminded of a cardinal? bishop? in Renaissance Venice getting Real Concerned about the increasing popularity of dude prostitutes and authorizing lady prostitutes to, er, visually advertise their wares from the window.

Then the hunks started doing it too so it was a bit of a wash. :v:

# ? Aug 1, 2017 13:55

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

aphid_licker posted:

So after reading fascismchat I have a scrub-tier question. If there's a caveman chieftain with very strong opinions about evicting that other tribe from the swamp with the tasty frogs in it and a penchant for hitting people who question his decisions with a club etc. there's no sense in calling that guy fascist, right? What would you call that guy? Authoritarian? Or like a mafia boss, can that guy be fascist in terms of how he's running his enterprise if he has a weird thing about dying for the cause and ticks some other boxes? I think what I'm having trouble with is the difference between fascism and being a brutal rear end in a top hat, fascism is a specific subtype of authoritarianism / brutal assholism basically?

Fascism only makes sense in a modern context, really.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 13:57

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

GreyjoyBastard posted:

I'm reminded of a cardinal? bishop? in Renaissance Venice getting Real Concerned about the increasing popularity of dude prostitutes and authorizing lady prostitutes to, er, visually advertise their wares from the window.

Then the hunks started doing it too so it was a bit of a wash.

renaissance italy owned and was extremely gay

# ? Aug 1, 2017 14:02

Pornographic Memory: Dec 17, 2008

You can't have fascism without nationalism so I think you can pretty safely say a caveman chief is not fascist unless he's managed to invent something like it to apply to his tribe.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 14:05

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

HEY GAIL posted:

that is interesting--i wonder what accounts for the difference?

The sentiment by then was more that the Reich was falling, and no one wanted to be the last casualty if it could be helped. But it probably mattered more for the generals: western commanders could have planned high stakes operations to the end, but taking heavy casualties in a Market Garden v2.0 in 1945 would have meant career suicide. In contrast Zhukov and Rokossovsky were expected to drive to Berlin with no mercy. Grunts on either side had little influence on what kind of snafu they were dropped into.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 14:44

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

bewbies posted:

wait a minute, "nork" is racist now?

It's always been racist. It's a loving pejorative.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 14:54

glynnenstein: Feb 18, 2014

VanSandman posted:

It's always been racist. It's a loving pejorative.

I'd never heard that until this thread. Obviously Jap has been regarded as offensive for a really long time, but I had always thought of Nork as pretty harmless like Brit. I may just be unexposed on the subject.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:05

bewbies: Sep 23, 2003; Fun Shoe

I'm not trying to be dense but I've never before in my life heard anyone use "nork" in a pejorative sense. I also don't understand what the racial element it; it is referring to a nationality.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:07

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

And today I learned "nork" is an Australian slang term for boobs.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:09

Tekopo: Oct 24, 2008; When you see it, you'll shit yourself.

The first time I ever heard anyone use the word nork when referring to North Korean was when Homefront (the video game) came out. Norks means boobs in the UK.

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:09

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

bewbies posted:

I'm not trying to be dense but I've never before in my life heard anyone use "nork" in a pejorative sense. I also don't understand what the racial element it; it is referring to a nationality.

it's still at least rude to use offensive terms for other nationalities

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:10

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# ? May 13, 2024 10:36

glynnenstein: Feb 18, 2014

I wasn't aware it was offensive term anywhere. It's a contraction of NORth Korean, right?

# ? Aug 1, 2017 15:18

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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