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Millions died in famines during the Holodomor, while Stalin was exporting grain from the country (to pay for industrialization). But Stalin didn't exacerbate a famine to kill Ukrainians, he did so to get hard currency for industrialization. In the same way the British exacerbated famines in India by taxing farmers heavily and exporting crops for profit.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:45
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Disinterested posted:Most of the tankie Holodomor arguments are about a) Stalin didn't do it b) the Tzars had famines but at least Soviets ended them c) other Soviet Republics had it worse d) it's the fault of the west for being mean and blockading us.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:46
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HEY GAIL posted:and then there's the dude i encountered a few days ago who said it was a genocide of white people, which the soviet higher ups pursued as part of their evil jewish plot... Famous Jewish puppet Josef Stalin.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:47
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zoux posted:Famous Jewish puppet Josef Stalin.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:49
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HEY GAIL posted:and then there's the dude i encountered a few days ago who said it was a genocide of white people, which the soviet higher ups pursued as part of their evil jewish plot... I mean there's a certain threshold of argument I am willing to let in to the discussion and that is well below it. Taking up with arguments that stupid, obscure and extreme privileges that argument more than it deserves. This is a subject with a pretty well worn argument and most committed tankies can recite it pretty well.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:51
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zoux posted:I dunno if you caught the pre-backlash to the HBO ACW alt history show but Amazon's alt history ACW show is going to get the exact opposite of that backlash. If nothing else at least it hasn't already been done.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:53
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Disinterested posted:I mean there's a certain threshold of argument I am willing to let in to the discussion and that is well below it. Taking up with arguments that stupid, obscure and extreme privileges that argument more than it deserves.
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Aug 1, 2017 17:56
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HEY GAIL posted:we've let this filth pass without comment for a generation and now they're everywhere I don't think professional historians should be spending their time debunking reddit comments. That isn't practical and I doubt it will be curative. This subject is like holocaust denial, in that there are pretty well established themes most deniers have that should be and hage been debunked. Beyond that we can't spend our time chasing around every nut, and I don't think it will help either. Other approaches are needed. The Holodomor is arguably more complicated since the cold war encouraged even mainstream academic commentators to engage with the subject propagandistically. But you have to pick your fights. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 18:01
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I'd say that serious historians can spend their time very well on internet communities, because if they do it right they can raise the methodological barrier to entry in a community and drive a lot of the worst out, as well as providing an example of what actual history looks like. It's entirely possible for people to argue correct arguments poorly, and exposure to better explanations of those arguments helps a lot. That might not be the best solution in the long term, but it definitely does help in the short term. My posting was a lot more dogshit before hanging out in communities with a high standard for historical discourse, and that improvement spreads from me and my posts in turn. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 18:05
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Someone post that quote about how you can't argue with antisemites rationally because they already know they are spouting contradictory nonsense
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Aug 1, 2017 18:07
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MikeCrotch posted:Someone post that quote about how you can't argue with antisemites rationally because they already know they are spouting contradictory nonsense I think that ignores the fact that Arguments On The Internet are also performances in front of a third party audience, though. Demonstrating the anti-semites are unchallenged has consequences.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:11
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MikeCrotch posted:Someone post that quote about how you can't argue with antisemites rationally because they already know they are spouting contradictory nonsense The thing where a fascist ideology must portray their enemynas both strong and threatening, but weak and incompetent, at the same time?
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Aug 1, 2017 18:11
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xthetenth posted:I'd say that serious historians can spend their time very well on internet communities, because if they do it right they can raise the methodological barrier to entry in a community and drive a lot of the worst out, as well as providing an example of what actual history looks like. It's entirely possible for people to argue correct arguments poorly, and exposure to better explanations of those arguments helps a lot. There's something to that, but have you ever noticed that most of the time Internet debates endlessly tend towards a dialogue between the most extreme and stupid opinions expressed by relatively few people, absent moderation? If you spend all your time seeking the worst opinion in the discourse you wind up privileging it in the conversation.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:12
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Ensign Expendable posted:The thing where a fascist ideology must portray their enemynas both strong and threatening, but weak and incompetent, at the same time?
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Aug 1, 2017 18:15
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nothing to seehere posted:Millions died in famines during the Holodomor, while Stalin was exporting grain from the country (to pay for industrialization). But Stalin didn't exacerbate a famine to kill Ukrainians, he did so to get hard currency for industrialization. In the same way the British exacerbated famines in India by taxing farmers heavily and exporting crops for profit. That seems like not... quite the same way. In that Russia might have benefitted from industrialization eventually where as I'm not sure the UK running India as a cash crop farm did them any good whatsoever. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 18:19
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On VVS pilot training VVS main front strength increased to 8,491 by 1 July [1943] [...] Yet there were only 5,732 aircrew because the training organisation had still not recovered from the setbacks of 1941-42. At the beginning of the war there were 73 schools, but most were withdrawn eastwards and the number was reduced to 48. Despite receiving 3,160 Osoaviakhim aircraft, most of which went to training units, the Russian air training organisation remained at around 6,000 aeroplanes throughout the war because many U-2 (Po-2 from August 1944) trainers were used for combat or support roles. With few advanced trainers produced in Russia, much use was made of worn-out aircraft from the front. There was also a shortage of instructors as many of the best had been transferred to the front, often at their own request because they felt they were shirking in the rear, while there was also a serious shortage of fuel. In 1942 the schools only received 55% of their requirement, and the disruption of supplies meant this dropped to 52.5% in 1943, before rising in 1944 to nearly 68%. [Training] flights averaged only 15 minutes duration or less. Another problemw as the student's low priority for rations - one pilot reported he and three comrades had to share a loaf and a tomato, while others survived on weak pea soup that left them without the strength to fly. At one gunnery school, students lived on cabbage leaves and potato peels taken from bins, although the food situation in central Asia appears to have been better, with some students reporting receiving three meals a day, although this included camel meat and barley so hard it was called "shrapnel". In may 1943 half of Rudenko's pilots were 'foals', while in Sudets' 237th ShAP/305th ShAD all but two airmen were flying their first combat mission. On Luftwaffe pilot training When Barbarossa began the Luftwaffe had 41 basic and 22 advanced/instrument training schools with 4,300 aircraft. Despite shortages of both instructors and fuel, students still logged some 300 hours each during 1942 - far more than the 'foals'. In July 1943, Generalmajor Werner Kreipe rationalised the organisation to 27 basic training schools by 1944, but he expanded advanced and instrument training to 29 schools, insisting there be no reduction at this level. He almost doubled the training fleet to 8,000 aircraft, and while fuel shortages steadily reduced flying hours to about 250 hours in 1943, 175 hours and then 110 hours in 1944 - still more than the enemy - the schools produced 14,500 pilots in 1943 and 29,050 in the 12 months after Kreipe's appointment, although by the end pilots went solo after 10 flights instead of 50 as pilot quality undoubtedly declined. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Aug 1, 2017 |
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Aug 1, 2017 18:20
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Disinterested posted:Sure but that isn't really what the argument is about with that issue. I've read a story about the British punishing Indian rebels by shooting them out of cannons, like, in the raining-bloody-bits kind of way. I'd believe anything about the British, including them starving large parts of India just to get richer.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:27
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More that they shot the cannons through the Indians.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:28
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Libluini posted:I've read a story about the British punishing Indian rebels by shooting them out of cannons, like, in the raining-bloody-bits kind of way. I'd believe anything about the British, including them starving large parts of India just to get richer. That's not what I was posting about? But yes, the British did shoot cannons through Indians as a reprisal for the Indian mutiny. Go back and read the posts.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:29
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"People did grisly executions ages ago, therefore a hundred years later ~anything can be true~"
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Aug 1, 2017 18:30
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HEY GAIL posted:and then there's the dude i encountered a few days ago who said it was a genocide of white people, which the soviet higher ups pursued as part of their evil jewish plot... Where the gently caress do you keep meeting these washcloth eaters?
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Aug 1, 2017 18:32
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They sure starved the poo poo out of the Irish.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:32
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Speaking of a Russian air operation shortly before Operation Zitadelle The operation claimed 506 aircraft, 373 on the ground, for the loss of 122, but German losses were actually 5 aircraft destroyed and 20 damaged.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:32
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Where the gently caress do you keep meeting these washcloth eaters?
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Aug 1, 2017 18:35
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While were on the topic of antisemetism, I remember seeing an article whos thesis was that antisemetism isnt standard out group racism but rather a tool for elites to scapegoat popular discontent onto instead of themselves- which would mean that jewish people will never be 'white', which is to say both socially/culturally white and an accepted (and defended) part of the elite. Is there any academic support for this view?
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Aug 1, 2017 18:42
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Disinterested posted:There's something to that, but have you ever noticed that most of the time Internet debates endlessly tend towards a dialogue between the most extreme and stupid opinions expressed by relatively few people, absent moderation? If you spend all your time seeking the worst opinion in the discourse you wind up privileging it in the conversation. Yeah, I think there's very definitely an additional skill set that's useful/necessary for doing it right. It's not really arguing in good faith so much as offering an argument in good faith as a way of modelling what one looks like even though you know it's going to be met by a dishonest argument, and then turning it into a performed challenge for them to do the same, and demonstrating that they can't. If you can demonstrate that there are questions that simply cannot be answered MikeCrotch posted:Someone post that quote about how you can't argue with antisemites rationally because they already know they are spouting contradictory nonsense Hmm. I think that for a lot of people who spout contradictory nonsense, they've actually rationalized it away enough that it really doesn't hit home that they're not arguing but repeating a tide of nonsense because their arguments are as much voicing their rationalizations in public. If you can show them that there are points they cannot explain I find that works well, and I've driven people off boards by just getting them to the point where dissonance seems to be too much.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:52
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HEY GAIL posted:i'm on the internet all day, where the gently caress are you free of them? Not hanging out on the internet all day. Also San Diego.
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Aug 1, 2017 18:56
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xthetenth posted:Yeah, I think there's very definitely an additional skill set that's useful/necessary for doing it right. It's not really arguing in good faith so much as offering an argument in good faith as a way of modelling what one looks like even though you know it's going to be met by a dishonest argument, and then turning it into a performed challenge for them to do the same, and demonstrating that they can't. If you can demonstrate that there are questions that simply cannot be answered You also need moderators and a critical mass of people with minimal critical thinking skills. Those are what differentiate a/t from dnd, for example.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:02
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I wouldn't mind an diehard Atlantis-is-Bolivia believer or some sort of Aeglius though. The best part of reading the Roman thread is when that one Atlantis guy pops up every so often to vehemently defend his crackpot theories. What's the milhist equivalent to "Atlantis was real and my friend"
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Aug 1, 2017 19:04
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zoux posted:I wouldn't mind an diehard Atlantis-is-Bolivia believer or some sort of Aeglius though. The best part of reading the Roman thread is when that one Atlantis guy pops up every so often to vehemently defend his crackpot theories.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:12
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Communist Zombie posted:While were on the topic of antisemetism, I remember seeing an article whos thesis was that antisemetism isnt standard out group racism but rather a tool for elites to scapegoat popular discontent onto instead of themselves- which would mean that jewish people will never be 'white', which is to say both socially/culturally white and an accepted (and defended) part of the elite. Is there any academic support for this view? Two reasons for anti-Semitism being in the form that it is: 1. A couple of thousand years of Christianity explicitly promoting anti-Semitism to one degree or another for genuinely held religious reasons. 2. The fact that Jewish people, because they couldn't own land, pretty much had to be shop-owners, merchants, bankers in order to make a living. Only a very small proportion of Jewish people get rich this way, but when the Catholic Church is banning Christians from usury then you obviously end up with disproportionate representation in the sector. Everyone hates the guy who's calling in your debts, or putting up prices because of a shortage. e: but the starting point is straightforward religious intolerance.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:13
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Alchenar posted:So the thing that's distinct and unique about anti-Semitism is that it portrays the Jew as being in a powerful and dangerous position in relation to [group]. You can hypothesise that's a 'scapegoat for elites' mechanism, but then you're relying on a pretty grand conspiracy across Europe through the ages to cynically make ordinary people hate Jews.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:18
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HEY GAIL posted:it reminds me of the position in the us that anti black bigotry would disappear if their economic situation improved. both statements fail to prove the premise behind them, which is that class issues are "real"/"primary" and religious/ethnic issues are "false"/"manipulated"/secondary." The National Guard in the US has bombed successful black communities from the air. Yeah, no, that position is bullshit.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:21
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Cythereal posted:The National Guard in the US has bombed successful black communities from the air. Yeah, no, that position is bullshit. 
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Aug 1, 2017 19:24
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Improving minority economic conditions would improve their ability to cope with institutional racism, but yeah, "race blind" solutions based solely on economics end up helping poor whites way more than poor PoCs. Luckily it's possible to address both economic and racial inequality at the same time.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:25
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Speaking of a Russian air operation shortly before Operation Zitadelle The proper way to adjusted air campaign kill claims to produce realistic numbers is to multiply everything by 0.
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Aug 1, 2017 19:38
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zoux posted:I wouldn't mind an diehard Atlantis-is-Bolivia believer or some sort of Aeglius though. The best part of reading the Roman thread is when that one Atlantis guy pops up every so often to vehemently defend his crackpot theories. I've read some of the explanations as to why Atlantis was supposed to be in Bolivia and it reads like some hosed-up sympathetic magic nonsense. Basically, those people believe Bolivia is Atlantis because that high plateau they've chosen roughly corresponds to the form Atlantis was supposed to have or some bullshit like that. The logic used here seems to be like me claiming Germany is in Antarctica because I found a mountain in Antarctica roughly looking like the Kyffhäuser in Winter. Of course, since believing in Atlantis means you have to ignore that it's loving fictional, normal human logic doesn't seem to be a strength of those people. Welp, at least this has become a funny anecdote from the internet I can actually tell people without needing to explain tons of weird internet bullshit first. "Atlantis is in Bolivia" is so out there, it becomes a joke the moment you type it. That's some real comedic efficiency here. 
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Aug 1, 2017 19:50
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Taerkar posted:The proper way to adjusted air campaign kill claims to produce realistic numbers is to multiply everything by 0. Following a Stavka directive to neutralise enemy airfields from 8 to 10 June [1943], the ADD flew 2,330 sorties and would claim 580-750 aircraft for the loss of 25 aeroplanes, but the Germans lost only 8, half of them Storchs, while 11 were damaged.
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Aug 1, 2017 20:01
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It feels like if you flew 2000 sorties you should be able to claim more kills out of sheer inevitability of mechanical failure over enemy airbases resulting in damage to planes on the ground.
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Aug 1, 2017 20:05
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On the use of Russian aircraft in the ground attack role [During Kutozov] Each Russian army headquarters received an air army liaison team, but the shortage of 'Ilyushas' meant Naumenko had to use three regiments of Yak-9Ts with 37mm cannon.
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Aug 1, 2017 20:08
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