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qkkl posted:Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world. If I were Maduro I would ask the Russians or Chinese for help in building more oil wells. Then I'd make the country better by just pumping all that oil money into the economy, and skim a bit off the top for me and my friends. Now I have tons of money and my people love me and ask me to kiss their babies. The Government has tried to get Russia and China to renew all the extraction points in the past, but those nations have found importing Venezuelan Oil costs too much for almost no profit (Especially when Russia has better Oil sources in its own territory), hence why China is no longer lending money. And like Labradoodle said, the Government loves to take the Lion's Share out of everything without actually working for it, hence why all their seized companies has been driven to near bankrupt so far...
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Aug 1, 2017 23:38
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Bob le Moche posted:This is such a bad faith thing to complain about when I was responding to someone WHO WAS LITERALLY COMPLAINING THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD DONE STUFF IN ORDER TO BOOST THEIR POPULARITY AFTER BEING ELECTED. You're simplifying my argument here by leaving out the point that I was criticizing expropriation for short-term benefits. Thats a far cry of complaining about "doing stuff to boost their popularity." That's a pretty dishonest framing of what I said. Bob le Moche posted:I didn't expect it to be that contentious to point out that in theory that is kind of the entire point of democracy? Its not the entire point of democracy. Popularity has to be balanced with other concerns. Some of the other concerns includes human rights and ensuring the long-term viability of the state. Democracy is to serve the interests of the public in general, which may not align with whats popular. I shouldn't expect that to be contentious.
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Aug 1, 2017 23:48
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If Maduro actually wants to make Venezuela better, then I understand why he's stifling the opposition. The problem in Venezuela is the economy is too dependent on oil. The goal of any Venezuelan government, regardless of party, would be to diversify the economy, if it had Venezuelan's best interests in mind. Therefore since the actions of any government would be the same, then having elections is pointless and just slows things down. Elections would become useful once the situation improves and there is no longer one big issue that needs to be addressed. This same reasoning is why Stalin's policies are regarded to overall be good for the USSR, even though he killed a lot of people.
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Aug 2, 2017 00:01
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qkkl posted:If Maduro actually wants to make Venezuela better, then I understand why he's stifling the opposition. The problem in Venezuela is the economy is too dependent on oil. The goal of any Venezuelan government, regardless of party, would be to diversify the economy, if it had Venezuelan's best interests in mind. Therefore since the actions of any government would be the same, then having elections is pointless and just slows things down. Elections would become useful once the situation improves and there is no longer one big issue that needs to be addressed. Lol is this a loving joke?
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Aug 2, 2017 00:16
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JailTrump posted:Lol is this a loving joke? He's right though, even if literal stalinists were in charge, the administration of the Venezuelan state would not be an incompetent shitshow on the level it is now.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:55
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:He's right though, even if literal stalinists were in charge, the administration of the Venezuelan state would not be an incompetent shitshow on the level it is now. The Soviets at least knew how to keep their oil industry afloat, that's for sure. Soviet oil tankers weren't getting blocked from ports across the world because they spilled a huge chunk of their oil while being loaded due to rusty pipes, unlike modern Venezuelan tankers.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:06
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fishmech posted:The Soviets at least knew how to keep their oil industry afloat, that's for sure. Soviet oil tankers weren't getting blocked from ports across the world because they spilled a huge chunk of their oil while being loaded due to rusty pipes, unlike modern Venezuelan tankers.
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Aug 2, 2017 02:53
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MullardEL34 posted:PDVSA is the Groverhaus of oil companies. Venezuela's economy is being held up by load-bearing drywall.
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Aug 2, 2017 03:30
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A couple of news from the day:
A couple of takeaways from today's news: there are critical voices inside the regime itself telling us that what Maduro is doing is not O.K. The PSUV deputies who defected have clearly stated that they do not believe that Maduro represents the best interests of the socialist or the chavista project in Venezuela. One of the people in charge of electoral processes in the country is telling us that safety checks to ensure voter fraud does not take place were "bent" and "eliminated" for the Constituent Assembly election. What these people are showing is something that has been obvious for a long time: it is possible to be a leftist and not be a Maduro supporter. Those two things can be true simultaneously. Shnooks posted:Do you think the US will ever welcome Venezuelans as refugees? We have to be careful with terms. The term "refugee" is a legal category that is set out in a 1951 UN convention. Anyone can claim refugee status in any country signatory to the convention (I think most countries have signed and ratified the document). The 1951 convention defines a refugee as someone who: quote:... owing to well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it. All of this is a really convoluted way of saying that I think the answer to your question is "maybe". I know that one of Leopoldo Lopez's co-accused, Marco Coello, has applied for asylum in the United States (meaning, he claims to be a refugee because he claims to have a "well founded fear of being persecuted..."). If Coello can prove to the U.S. government that he is being persecuted for his "political opinion" and he is fearful of returning to Venezuela, then he could be granted refugee status. Of course, now that Trump is in office, who knows where any of this (or anything else, for that matter) could end up. qkkl posted:If Maduro actually wants to make Venezuela better, To give you just one example, the Maduro regime has refused on numerous occassions to admit that there are food and medicine shortages in Venezuela amounting to a humanitarian crisis. Maduro has even turned humanitarian aid offers away for no other reason than admitting that there is a crisis would be an admission of his failure as president. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 03:42
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Chuck Boone posted:He doesn't. Maduro is not interested in governing for the benefit of Venezuelans. He is only interested in maintaining power for his own benefit and that of the elites around him. I've read up on Maduro refusing free food and medicine, and I think the issue is deeper than just Maduro being evil. Giving Venezuelans free food and medicine is like giving ducks bread; they will get used to getting free food, and will become dependent on foreign aid. Maduro clearly does not want Venezuela to be dependent on Western nations. So he is refusing aid in order to force Venezuela to become self-sufficient for food and medicine. The problem is it seems that Maduro's plan to solve the food crisis is for the people to grow their own food, essentially the socialist utopian "farmer society" fantasy. We all know how those experiments turn out. Unfortunately I think it's too late for Venezuelans to do anything about it since they've been starved for over a year and thus won't be able to put up much of a fight against Maduro. If I were Trump I would continue to show that I'm against Maduro in the media, but secretly hope that a humanitarian crisis does unfold in Venezuela that would justify US intervention and the installment of a puppet government sympathetic to US interests.
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Aug 2, 2017 04:49
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Lopez's video gives me the biggest mix of sorrowful and optimistic emotions
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Aug 2, 2017 04:58
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qkkl posted:I've read up on Maduro refusing free food and medicine, and I think the issue is deeper than just Maduro being evil. Giving Venezuelans free food and medicine is like giving ducks bread; they will get used to getting free food, and will become dependent on foreign aid. Maduro clearly does not want Venezuela to be dependent on Western nations. So he is refusing aid in order to force Venezuela to become self-sufficient for food and medicine. Maduro isn't "evil". He doesn't do the things that he is doing because he is "evil". He does them because he is interested in remaining in power, no matter what the cost. If it means killing protesters, jailing opposition leaders and rigging elections, then so be it: power no matter what the cost. To suggest that Maduro does what he does because he is "evil" completely obscures the complexity of the situation. More to the point, Maduro's excuse for not receiving humanitarian aid is that according to him, there isn't a humanitarian crisis in Venezuela (check the links that I posted earlier with regime officials stating this). I don't mean to offend you, but the rest of your post reads like the opinion of someone who is not at all informed about Venezuelan political history or the Bolivarian movement. I'm not coming down on you for not being informed, but I would encourage you to do some reading on these topics before giving your opinion on them. Not knowing about a topic is fine, because no one can possibly know about everything. But trying to have a conversation about a topic that you don't know about as if you did know about it is not productive. One of the fundamental pillars of chavismo is direct subsidized food, medicine and housing for Venezuelans. The government spends most of its budget running massive social programs that, at least on paper, are designed precisely to "keep giving ducks bread" by providing them with free housing and healthcare, as well as food at very low, subsidized prices. So, again, your claim is simply counter-factual. EDIT: Not to beat keep beating a dead horse, but on "Maduro clearly does not want Venezuela to be dependent on Western nations": Venezuela gets 97%+ of its income from oil sales to Western nations, mostly the United States. Chavismo has been in power for nearly 20 years, and despite this it never cared to invest its astronomical oil earnings into diversifying the economy to avoid relying on others for income. Maduro and Chavez before him never really cared about where their money was coming from, as long as it kept coming. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 05:00
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qkkl posted:he is refusing aid in order to force Venezuela to become self-sufficient for food and medicine. LOL I think you've probably put way more thought into this than Maduro has.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:01
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Imagine if Donald Trump was a pretend socialist instead of a pretend conservative and there were no legislative checks on his power. You need to import raw materials, farm equipment, factory machinery, seeds, fertilizer, etc. to have a viable agricultural industry and the Maduro government has essentially destroyed most of those possibilities with hyperinflation of the currency and confiscating businesses that are handed to his cronies which rarely reopen. It's basically one big "going out of business" sale for the entire country and they're picking it clean before it collapses.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:08
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qkkl posted:I've read up on Maduro refusing free food and medicine, and I think the issue is deeper than just Maduro being evil. Giving Venezuelans free food and medicine is like giving ducks bread; they will get used to getting free food, and will become dependent on foreign aid. Maduro clearly does not want Venezuela to be dependent on Western nations. So he is refusing aid in order to force Venezuela to become self-sufficient for food and medicine. No you moron. He's giving them "free" food, because he made finding food extremely hard. He uses hunger as a way to control the masses, "support me or you're not eating". Venezuela IS dependent on Western nations because all this "free" food actually comes from Mexico, Argentina and the US, he destroyed all local production of food, which used to be sufficient to cover the country's demands.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:08
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Since Venezuela is a petro-state which discovered oil in the 1940s, most of its economic growth has centered around petroleum production and industry. It has always been a net importer of food, mostly from Colombia and the US. In 2004 agriculture was about 5% of the GDP and 10% of the labor force. As of 2005, 3% of proprietors owned about 70% of the agricultural land, which is one of the heaviest land concentration in Latin America. The Venezuelan government has responded to this by confiscating huge tracts of it and handing it over to urban poor families. The problem is that they need to import tractors, harvesters, tools, seeds, cement for silos, etc. and they can't do that because Venezuela's currency isn't worth dog poo poo and the government isn't concerned with helping them either at this point. There are many parallels to Robert Mugabe in the sense that he caused massive famine and hyperinflation due to a poor understanding of economics and agricultural policy.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:21
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Chuck Boone posted:You are ascribing to Maduro a whole range of motivations and intentions that are counter-factual. I think I see now. Maduro is part of the party that promised cheap food, medicine, and housing for all. However recently it has become impossible for the Venezuelan government to give everyone cheap essentials because it didn't make enough money from oil. So obviously the populace is going to vote out the party that failed to keep its promises, but Maduro doesn't want to leave. fnox posted:No you moron. He's giving them "free" food, because he made finding food extremely hard. He uses hunger as a way to control the masses, "support me or you're not eating". Venezuela IS dependent on Western nations because all this "free" food actually comes from Mexico, Argentina and the US, he destroyed all local production of food, which used to be sufficient to cover the country's demands. Ah, this confirms by belief. Maduro thought he could remain popular by giving everyone free essentials, which was possible at the time because of favorable oil prices. When oil prices dropped, his plan fell apart. Another potential socialist utopia ruined by reality.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:26
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A few months ago the Venezuelans in this thread were talking about the illegal mining operations that are being set up around the country now that the rule of law has totally collapsed. It's basically like a company town with organized gangs or mafias running the show. Very similar to the situation we saw in the Congo/Liberia/Sierra Leon. About 90% of Venezuela's gold is now produced by these illegal mines, and it's causing a lot of deforestation and environmental problems. I cannot stress just how badly the rule of law has collapsed in Venezuela. A lot of the national police will stop protesters to rob them before driving them off. They will break into apartment blocks and rob the inhabitants while in uniform. Many Venezuelans have turned to lynching robbers because the police don't care. People are absolutely desperate and they are never more desperate when they are starving and their families are starving.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:32
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Sergg posted:Since Venezuela is a petro-state which discovered oil in the 1940s, most of its economic growth has centered around petroleum production and industry. It has always been a net importer of food, mostly from Colombia and the US. In 2004 agriculture was about 5% of the GDP and 10% of the labor force. As of 2005, 3% of proprietors owned about 70% of the agricultural land, which is one of the heaviest land concentration in Latin America. The Venezuelan government has responded to this by confiscating huge tracts of it and handing it over to urban poor families. The problem is that they need to import tractors, harvesters, tools, seeds, cement for silos, etc. and they can't do that because Venezuela's currency isn't worth dog poo poo and the government isn't concerned with helping them either at this point. There are many parallels to Robert Mugabe in the sense that he caused massive famine and hyperinflation due to a poor understanding of economics and agricultural policy. Yes we've always been a net importer, but not of everything. Coffee production used to more than satisfy the country's needs, most meat and poultry consumed in the country was locally sourced, milk and milk derivates used to be readily available. Seriously, I remember what was like going to the supermarket in 1999, you could find anything, and you could for the most part afford anything, I would go to visit my family in Margarita (Which is an island that is tax exempt) to buy imported candy at local prices. Comparably, the last time I saw a Venezuelan supermarket in 2016, it was on one side flanked with imported products (And I'm talking poo poo products like Spam, Campbell soup, Mountain Dew) at prices so insane nobody could possibly buy them, and on the other side, whatever remained of what was regulated; an entirely empty aisle where milk, eggs, and other foodstuffs used to be. I would have to literally stop working to queue up in a neighbouring supermarket if toilet paper arrived there. qkkl posted:Ah, this confirms by belief. Maduro thought he could remain popular by giving everyone free essentials, which was possible at the time because of favorable oil prices. When oil prices dropped, his plan fell apart. Another potential socialist utopia ruined by reality. His plan didn't fall apart, he didn't do it because he thought it was good policy, he did it (and does it still) because he can much readily control people through hunger. The crisis has been intentionally made worse by them.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:34
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qkkl posted:I think I see now. Maduro is part of the party that promised cheap food, medicine, and housing for all. However recently it has become impossible for the Venezuelan government to give everyone cheap essentials because it didn't make enough money from oil. So obviously the populace is going to vote out the party that failed to keep its promises, but Maduro doesn't want to leave. Yes, this is much closer to the point. Venezuela enjoyed oil prices at historic highs for the first ten years of Chavez's tenure. A barrel of crude cost about $17 in December 1998 when Chavez was voted in. The price of oil in July 2008 was about $138 per barrel. For that first decade, Venezuela brought in more and more oil money each year. Chavez used this money to build a huge state that, as I said, provided much-needed relief for Venezuela's poor in the form of free housing and other subsidies. When oil prices began to tank at the end of 2008 and then in 2014, the government suddenly found itself struggling to provide these services. Worse than that, though, is the fact that the government had mismanaged the economy to the point that Venezuela barely produces any food today and relies almost exclusively on imports. When the money ran out for social programs, it also ran out for food and medicine imports. For Maduro, admitting that there is a humanitarian crisis (i.e., that the country needs help feeding itself and providing medical assistance to its citizens) would mean having to admit that it screwed up. For Maduro, the choice is simple: there is no humanitarian crisis. Poll after poll after poll since 2014 have shown that Venezuelans overwhelmingly reject Maduro's tenure as president and his PSUV party. One of the reasons why Venezuelans have been protesting and dying since April 1 of this year is that we want to go to the polls to elect a new government, but Maduro won't let that happen. The regime held an election on Sunday that it rigged from the start. It forced the election on Venezuelans illegally (by not holding a referendum prior to the election), and as I said in my earlier posts, the state institution in charge of the election has come out and said that it can't even be sure that the vote wasn't rigged because it ignored so many of its own internal checks and regulations.
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Aug 2, 2017 05:41
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Sergg posted:You guys realize that either Maduro is going to falsify the results or just ignore the results and continue to rule as a dictator, right? ^^I wrote this last month^^ I think every Venezuelan in here knew it was true on some level.
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Aug 2, 2017 06:02
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Sergg posted:^^I wrote this last month^^ I don't believe the constituent assembly benefits Maduro in any way. It's by far the most brazen display of autocracy from his government, and it has single-handedly destroyed any plausible deniability he had, as demonstrated by the escalation in international outrage. Besides, it gives him powers he already had, so it serves no benefit strategically either. I think the constituent assembly did nothing but seal his fate. He is a dictator in the eyes of the world now, undeniably so, and he will go down.
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Aug 2, 2017 06:32
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As someone who's been kinda bad about keeping up with this thread before big parts of leftist Twitter started suddenly caring about democracy in Venezuela is there a good summary of what's been happening since the OP? Like I have a grasp on what's going on but I feel like I need some things explained to me simply. Like what were the elections that were cancelled and whether or not my read of the 2015 election wiki was that Maduro basically created a new branch of government to neuter parliament was correct. Edit: and also exactly what the constituent assembly is beyond the probable electoral fraud.
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Aug 2, 2017 06:34
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Der Waffle Mous posted:As someone who's been kinda bad about keeping up with this thread before big parts of leftist Twitter started suddenly caring about democracy in Venezuela is there a good summary of what's been happening since the OP? The constituent assembly exists to write a new constitution, presumably to make Maduro dictator for life.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:03
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The elections were a recall referendum against Maduro that followed Constitutional procedures which he cancelled and regional elections. In 2015 he packed the Supreme Court with his own judges and simply ruled by decree. Anything the Legislature passed was simply struck down by his cronies on the court, and all of Maduro's decrees were ruled constitutional. This new Constituent Assembly is supposed to replace the Constitution that Chavez wrote. It allegedly has governing authority over every branch of government but it was held illegally without a plebiscite. Just weeks prior, the Venezuelan opposition held their own non-binding plebiscite in which 7 million people voted overwhelmingly to say they didn't want a new Constitution, but Maduro went ahead with this anyways. It's basically a way to continue ruling as a dictator with a thin veneer of legal legitimacy.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:04
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Bob le Moche posted:The only reason I became a "tankie" (which I guess is what anti-imperialists are called in this thread?) is because, as a North American, I've always made an effort to try to keep myself informed about my country's foreign policy and participation in wars, and to be able to understand the international conflicts it was involved in. Over the years, again and again, I noticed a pattern where at the beginning of any conflict, literally everyone, whether it was conservatives or liberals or social democrats, bought into the justification for wars and foreign intervention and repeated any propaganda that could sell the war as a humanitarian operation to save freedom and democracy or go after terrorits and WMDs or whatever. Only for the outcome of such operations to always lead to more suffering disaster and ruin, for the narratives that justified them to be exposed as pure fabrications, and for everyone who cheered about the war to go silent about the outcomes and move on to the next jingoistic venture. oh my god shut the gently caress up. you are not a mission to save the poor venezuelans from themselves, you're just bloviating about us imperialism because it is the closet thing to sucking your own cock you're capable of doing. shut the gently caress up you god drat idiot.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:04
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Thanks. The amount of uncritical "BUT DEMOCRACY" I've been seeing about the international reaction to the constituent assembly has been driving me insane.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:15
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qkkl posted:Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world. If I were Maduro I would ask the Russians or Chinese for help in building more oil wells. Then I'd make the country better by just pumping all that oil money into the economy, and skim a bit off the top for me and my friends. Now I have tons of money and my people love me and ask me to kiss their babies. Look into Dutch disease and resource curse - countries built on profit from natural resource extraction tend to be deeply dysfunctional, heavily indebted and constantly on the verge of conflict. Countries like Venezuela need to wean themselves off petroleum to survive in the long term.
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Aug 2, 2017 09:10
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Thanks. A lot of internet tankies (because these lily-white gringos aren't brave enough to talk to actual Venezuelans) basically gave up defending Maduro and are now parroting the jacobin line about how any possible future Venezuela will be worse than this one, as well as that dumbass cowardly "b-b-but all the facts aren't in yet, let's reserve judgement on this issue (except for all my broke-brain CIA conspiracy theories)"
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Aug 2, 2017 09:44
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I don't know of any other petro-states that are facing 1000% inflation and lack basic foodstuffs, toilet paper, toothpaste, and basic medical supplies. Even countries actually under heavy US sanctions like Iran and Russia are faring OK. The problem in Venezuela seems to be a mixture of gross economic and policy negligence, PSUV elites looting the country blind, and a violent transition from a Democracy to an Oligarchy. The food distribution patronage networks are based on what political party you support. Rule of law has completely broken down because the ruling class prioritized lining their pockets rather than governing.
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Aug 2, 2017 09:58
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Aug 2, 2017 09:58
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Huh, Nicholas Casey (the NYTimes reporter, probably the best / one of the only English-language reporters in Venezuela) was banned from Venezuela last November. No wonder he hadn't been publishing much lately, and always in collaboration with someone else. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/24/world/americas/venezuela-comic-banned.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fnicholas-casey And https://www.nytimes.com/by/nicholas-casey for anyone interested generally. He usually covers different aspects of Venezuela than the average garbage you see on BBC (or wherever)'s front page. PS: Nicholas Casey is a black guy, and somehow he survived 8 months in Venezuela, at many dozens of opposition rallies, without getting lynched. How incredible!! (If you're an idiot that imposes your American views of racial politics on everywhere else in the world.)
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Aug 2, 2017 12:17
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How could that be?! It is known that everyone who doesn't like Maduro is white and everyone who likes Maduro is black.  I mean those guys (I don't know their names, are they Leopoldo Lopez?) they're white, right? So they must be against Maduro. gently caress those CIA bastards!
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Aug 2, 2017 12:32
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Der Waffle Mous posted:As someone who's been kinda bad about keeping up with this thread before big parts of leftist Twitter started suddenly caring about democracy in Venezuela is there a good summary of what's been happening since the OP? You've encouraged me to write a mega-update to the second post on the first page that will have answer to all of these questions (with links, etc.), so thank you! I'll link it in a post when I finish it, which should be either today or tomorrow.
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Aug 2, 2017 13:17
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qkkl posted:This same reasoning is why Stalin's policies are regarded to overall be good for the USSR, even though he killed a lot of people. I'm sure that enslaving people who are unable to find employment and working them to death on labor camps would make economic sense too. But what kind of a monster would make such a case?
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Aug 2, 2017 13:52
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Hey look it's evidence of the exact thing every person who isn't a tankie retard knew was going on: https://twitter.com/bbcworld/status/892728034121351169 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 2, 2017 13:53
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https://twitter.com/puzkas/status/892723089708023808 It's confirmed by the firm that makes the drat voting machines that there was fraud.
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Aug 2, 2017 14:08
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sudo rm -rf posted:oh my god shut the gently caress up. you are not a mission to save the poor venezuelans from themselves
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Aug 2, 2017 14:10
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PT6A posted:Hey look it's evidence of the exact thing every person who isn't a tankie retard knew was going on: There was an article last night from the BBC that at 5:30 there had been 3 million votes cast then somehow magically we got 8 million by the time voting ended. Hahaha. How the gently caress do you cast 5 million votes in less than 3 hours? http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AI0AL Meanwhile Colombia has extended legal entry rights for Venezuelans who enter and provided them access to the subsidized healthcare system and employment rights. http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/nacional/canciller-anuncio-que-colombia-seguira-apoyando-los-venezolanos-que-migren-articulo-706090 JailTrump fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 14:11
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fnox posted:https://twitter.com/puzkas/status/892723089708023808 I'm assuming the PSUV either ignores this completely, or calls them yanqui devils or whatever? Someone please explain to me what happens next after this vote. When will this Constitutional Assembly meet? Is parliament sitting as normal till then?
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Aug 2, 2017 14:12
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