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The longer a show goes on, the more the budget gets eaten up by the yearly raises given to the main actors per SAG rules, as well as producers and crew. This is why CGI budgets tend to suck in the back-half of a series when compared to the front half, and why lighting and shot composition also suffer because time is money. There are exceptions, but it's a hurdle every long-running show deals with. Add in the fact that you can't kill off several characters who are seven years deep because it's not really your story, and you can start to understand why they're more interested in finishing this off and doing spin-offs instead of stretching it out.
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Aug 2, 2017 19:58
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fruit on the bottom posted:It's also got the same problem as Book!Dorne or Lady Stoneheart where it isn't really apparent what kind of payoff there's going to be, or indeed if there's going to be one at all*. So is it worth trying to push a new set of characters who may amount to piss-all? Say what you will but I do think they learned their lesson with the Sand Snakes and I think they were wary of doing the same with the Ironborn. Yeah ultimately you didn't really need the sand snakes for Elliara Sand to make out with Myrcella and poison her, which was the whole dramatic outcome of that plot. Unless Bronn is going to somehow save Bad Pussy, which seems unlikely - although they did say it could take a very long time to kill her, which almost seems planted to allow for that.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:01
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Zaphod42 posted:The very line you quoted said Uh, seeing a character's name should imply everything about Victarion that was explained? Imagining your day-to-day life, full of hilarious or disastrous assumptions, sounds like a good TV show. (Original idea, please do not steal)
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Aug 2, 2017 20:01
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fruit on the bottom posted:OTOH, the book that took two seasons is the one most densely packed with important and epic things happening, and as for the three books covered in one season, almost nothing happens in two of them and the third doesn't exist. Yeah admittedly ASOIAF gets worse as it goes on. But I'd argue the show does at an accelerated rate  Invalid Validation posted:You're assuming HBO would give them 10 seasons and promise to them within the first couple. That's a bit of a stretch. For the last couple seasons word has been HBO has been begging them to drag it out and make it longer. They're trying to build up spinoff shows, HBO is dying for more thrones material.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:12
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fruit on the bottom posted:It's also got the same problem as Book!Dorne or Lady Stoneheart where it isn't really apparent what kind of payoff there's going to be, or indeed if there's going to be one at all*. So is it worth trying to push a new set of characters who may amount to piss-all? Say what you will but I do think they learned their lesson with the Sand Snakes and I think they were wary of doing the same with the Ironborn. But Dorne had no connection to the plot other than Oberyn. That was the whole problem. Ironborn aren't the same situation because they decided to make this season's plot hinge on Euron. If you're going to do that, may as well go full-hog and explore the Ironborn! I mean yeah you could say they only intended to have Theon at first and then Yara, (not like Theon isn't a major character) but by the time they decided to have Euron show up and kill Balon they should have committed to the Ironborn being a big plot element and included Victarion too. Just having so much screetime for Theon alone justifies Euron and Victarion more than Oberyn did the Sand Snakes.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:14
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Red posted:Uh, seeing a character's name should imply everything about Victarion that was explained? How are you this thick. Its not his name. "SHOW EURON followed by BOOK EURON AND VICTARION" should be enough context clues for any high schooler to figure it out. SAT analogies were harder. Sorry I didn't say "Book euron and Book Victarion" but considering you'd never heard his name, and I was contrasting it with "show euron", it should be flippin obvious that's a character from the books that isn't in the show.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:17
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Pedro De Heredia posted:It's way to late in the show to introduce two new characters whose main conflict would be with each other. No one would care. I'm not sure it's actually possible for me to care less about Euron. If I had to rewrite all this, I would have set up Theon and Yara on opposite sides of this war somehow because at least people already know them and give a gently caress about them. Or just have let Theon get killed off by Ramsey and you could just do Yara v. Euron because cutting Theon gives you more time to develop Euron. They didn't even really depict the best poo poo in Theon's redemption from the books anyway. FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 20:21
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I'm pretty sure that dude realized Vic is a book character. But just his name doesn't tell you anything. He wanted to know who Vic is.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:22
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If they introduced Euron and Victarion 3 seasons ago as was in the books you'd have more time
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Aug 2, 2017 20:54
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Yeah, they really dropped the ball with sidelining the Greyjoys if they planned to have Euron be so important. Balon was supposed to die before Joffrey.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:56
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Phi230 posted:If they introduced Euron and Victarion 3 seasons ago as was in the books you'd have more time Yeah. And if they wanted to do Dorne they should have introduced it before Oberyn even marched on King's Landing. But so much of how they write is reactionary based on what is popular.
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Aug 2, 2017 21:00
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If you guys like books so much maybe you should read those instead? ?? I heard about this cool one called "The Wars After Robert Baratheon" that's supposed to bw pretty good. e: real talk though- the best part of the series was when Gurm had books available for copying and D&D still were too scared to do their own poo poo but were willing to "edit". Now it's insane plus dumb, which is okay because tits and dragons. it's getting reeeeal dumb lately 3 DONG HORSE fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 21:27
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When this show was more cool and good than it is now, Varys and Littlefinger were both pretty explicit in their end-games. At that point it seemed like they might emerge as the primary antagonists of the show, but that was when the show was more about intrigue, politiking and interesting character development than shaky-camera boom-battles and deus ex machina big-bads. Man, remember that? The political maneuverings (cack-handed or not) of Ned in King's Landing, Tyrion having to subvert his sister and mental nephew as the hand, Sansa and the Tyrell's unspoken mutual understanding regarding the Lannisters. I really miss that stuff now that its all blown up and people are basically flinging armies at one another. More than teleporting armies or 2 minute battles or Deus-Ex bum fingerer, its the lack of intrigue that bums me out. I guess theres a little bit of it up in Winterfell....but that hardly counts.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:14
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Simiain posted:When this show was more cool and good than it is now, Varys and Littlefinger were both pretty explicit in their end-games. At that point it seemed like they might emerge as the primary antagonists of the show, but that was when the show was more about intrigue, politiking and interesting character development than shaky-camera boom-battles and deus ex machina big-bads. Yeah I agree completely. There's still little bits of politics but there's so little time spent on it that it all falls really flat compared to how they used to build that stuff up. 3 DONG HORSE posted:e: real talk though- the best part of the series was when Gurm had books available for copying and D&D still were too scared to do their own poo poo but were willing to "edit". Now it's insane plus dumb, which is okay because tits and dragons. 
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Aug 2, 2017 22:18
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Slugworth posted:Apologies if it's been discussed - Why has Dany been so insistent on Jon kneeling? Didn't her deal with Yara include the Iron Islands ruling themselves? I mean, I guess you can only make that deal so many times before you're the Queen of nothing, but trusting the Greyjoys to self govern, but not the Starks? The Iron Islands were conquered but the Starks were allowed to keep their position in exchange for "loyalty into perpetuity." As far as she is concerned, the Stark refusal to bend the knee is a violation of a centuries old bond. If the Starks refuse to concede, then she has no further obligation to protect them. More recently, the Targaryen and Stark relationship has been rocky. From Dany's perspective, the Starks led a rebellion against her father, killed her entire family, supported a usurper who led the country into civil war, and sent assassins to kill her and her brother. It seems doubtful that Dany would allow the Starks to skip away without any consequences.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:20
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Simiain posted:When this show was more cool and good than it is now, Varys and Littlefinger were both pretty explicit in their end-games. At that point it seemed like they might emerge as the primary antagonists of the show, but that was when the show was more about intrigue, politiking and interesting character development than shaky-camera boom-battles and deus ex machina big-bads. Yeah. Ned's storyline put him in the same room with his enemies for pretty much the entire run of it. We don't have that right now.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:21
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QuoProQuid posted:The Iron Islands were conquered but the Starks were allowed to keep their position in exchange for "loyalty into perpetuity." As far as she is concerned, the Stark refusal to bend the knee is a violation of a centuries old bond. If the Starks refuse to concede, then she has no further obligation to protect them. I did like the irony in that scene that Dany was calling out Ned Stark for supporting assassinating her when in reality we know that he was the only person counseling Robert to under no circumstances do exactly that. But of course neither Dany nor Jon really knows that. Although... Varys does... but he probably didn't want to say anything since he was the one pushing for said assassination. FuriousxGeorge posted:Yeah. Ned's storyline put him in the same room with his enemies for pretty much the entire run of it. We don't have that right now. That's a REALLY good point. Political intrigue between Ned and Cersei or Tyrion and Cersei or whoever like that, it allows the characters to talk and act in scenes together and pretend to be peaceful while really waging war on each other and building dramatic threats. Now that everybody's engaged in open total war, they're all kings surrounded by armies and everything is far far more indirect. At least we got Jon and Dany together, and Bran and Sansa, so they are bringing characters together and avoiding the tons of split plots we had in past seasons. But those who are in conflict can't really interact with each other directly other than through war now, which is unfortunate. The cold war style politics was way more dramatic. There's basically a rule of fiction that while it seems like the stakes are higher when you build up to a big epic scale, for the viewers/readers/audience the stakes are actually far more emotional when they're smaller, and focused on characters we know instead of faceless armies and hordes. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 22:23
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Yeah. Ned's storyline put him in the same room with his enemies for pretty much the entire run of it. We don't have that right now. Agreed. I like the show, but the political intrigue that got me hooked took a huge blow the moment actual fighting broke out. I wish we could have more episodes where the focus is guessing who is talking to whom behind closed doors.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:25
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You could almost say this was inevitable. The book's setup all this stuff and now we are seeing how the pieces land.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:26
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QuoProQuid posted:Agreed. I like the show, but the political intrigue that got me hooked took a huge blow the moment actual fighting broke out. I wish we could have more episodes where the focus is guessing who is talking to whom behind closed doors. Like, Sansa is being trained to be Littlefinger Jr, but she is probably going to spend the rest of the show in Winterfell scheming from a distance instead of up close and personal like LF and OIenna did in previous seasons? Come on!
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Aug 2, 2017 22:28
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Like, Sansa is being trained to be Littlefinger Jr, but she is probably going to spend the rest of the show in Winterfell scheming from a distance instead of up close and personal like LF and OIenna did in previous seasons? Come on! On a similar note, some of the best changes in the show have involved bringing together unrelated characters together to play off one another. I don't think Tywin and Arya ever interact in the books, but their interactions made for some of the best scenes of the second season and added a new dimension to the entire Stark-Lannister conflict. The disparate perspectives of the books really doesn't work on television. I agree that the some of the problem was inevitable (as it is difficult to have much debate about who is siding with who on the battlefield), but the show probably could have done a better job tying together characters. The entire Littlefinger-Sansa-Ramsey subplot was one of the most disappointing parts of the series for me because it didn't utilize the characters or meaningfully develop them.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:34
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QuoProQuid posted:On a similar note, some of the best changes in the show have involved bringing together unrelated characters together to play off one another. I don't think Tywin and Arya ever interact in the books, but their interactions made for some of the best scenes of the second season and added a new dimension to the entire Stark-Lannister conflict. The disparate perspectives of the books really doesn't work on television. Originally Tywin/Arya was Roose/Arya.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:36
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Tywin really should have lived long enough to be killed by Arya. I think seeing what Tywin does/thinks about ICE ZOMBIES would have been more interesting than this Hail Mary of a Cersei plot they're doing.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:48
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I was going to praise the scene where Tywin talks about teaching Jaime how to read but I realized that was in the Arya scenes. Those were really good for fleshing out Tywin
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Aug 2, 2017 23:22
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nah, tyrion killing tywin is way better.QuoProQuid posted:The Iron Islands were conquered but the Starks were allowed to keep their position in exchange for "loyalty into perpetuity." As far as she is concerned, the Stark refusal to bend the knee is a violation of a centuries old bond. If the Starks refuse to concede, then she has no further obligation to protect them. More Baratheons really than Starks, but now they're all dead. Also, Aerys struck first. Also, from the Starks' POV, Rhaegar stole their daughter, raped her, and refused to return her. Dany will come around. Or go crazy, whatever.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:24
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esperterra posted:I'm pretty sure that dude realized Vic is a book character. But just his name doesn't tell you anything. He wanted to know who Vic is. Wait, let's see if he can figure this out on his own first. On topic: Is Dorne kind of cut off from Westeros by the desert, or did they march the whole way when Tyrion and Oberyn met on screen?
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Aug 2, 2017 23:59
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Skizzzer posted:nah, tyrion killing tywin is way better. as it turns out, a lot of diplomatic disputes arise out of misconceptions about the other and heroic narratives that ignore the fault of one's side agreed that tyrion killing tywin is a way better end. same with jaime killing cersei Red posted:Wait, let's see if he can figure this out on his own first. As I remember, Oberyn came to King's Landing via boat with a small group of bodyguards. There's roads between the two regions, but it involves hiking through the desert and mountains. EDIT: Slight revision. Took a look at a map.  The King's Road doesn't actually extend into Dorne. If you want to travel from Sunspear to the capital, your options are to trek through miles of unmarked desert or hop on a dingy. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 00:06
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precision posted:Tywin really should have lived long enough to be killed by Arya. I think seeing what Tywin does/thinks about ICE ZOMBIES would have been more interesting than this Hail Mary of a Cersei plot they're doing. Tywin obviously didn't believe in them, but faced with irrefutable proof, I do think Tywin would be rational enough to realize that the Walkers are the greater threat. As would Ned. As would Robert. Possibly even Roose. I think a great many of the "Old Guard" got there by being far-sighted enough to be able to sideline immediate objectives in the interest of their long term interests. So Tywin would be able to understand that the Walkers winning is game over for the Lannisters no matter what, and act accordingly. So he had to get taken off the board. Now you're just left with people like Cersei who don't think of the long game, whether that ineptitude or inexperience. And that creates a conflict; Robert and Tywin could probably be persuaded to put off dealing with the iron throne problem until the walkers are dead, but Cersei would just try and use that as an opportunity to take out her rivals first. Plus Tyrion killing Tywin was the right way to go
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Aug 3, 2017 00:16
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QuoProQuid posted:More recently, the Targaryen and Stark relationship has been rocky. From Dany's perspective, the Starks led a rebellion against her father, killed her entire family, supported a usurper who led the country into civil war, and sent assassins to kill her and her brother. It seems doubtful that Dany would allow the Starks to skip away without any consequences. Dany can get hosed. Robert wasn't an usurper, he was a god-tier bro who went to war because the mad king took massive loving liberties with his friends and nearly everyone else turned a blind eye. I'm glad he smashed Rhaegar's head in, he deserved it!
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Aug 3, 2017 00:37
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I kind of wish someone would give her that speech. Especially a part about how none of the common folk actually give a gently caress and just want to farm and live in peace and not have deal with all the political bullshit, and then they get their head cut off
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Aug 3, 2017 00:40
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fruit on the bottom posted:I kind of wish someone would give her that speech. Especially a part about how none of the common folk actually give a gently caress and just want to farm and live in peace and not have deal with all the political bullshit, and then they get their head cut off She's conceded that, no? Her whole confrontation with Varys culminated with her admitting that peasants weren't building secret shrines to her and that her father was a monster. If Dany has an arc, it's a slow realization that her birthright doesn't mean jack poo poo. I don't think she's reached that endpoint yet, given her conversation with Jon, but she's definitely made some positive progress over the last three or four seasons. She's not accusing people of sedition when they remind her of her family history anymore. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 00:49
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precision posted:Tywin really should have lived long enough to be killed by Arya. I think seeing what Tywin does/thinks about ICE ZOMBIES would have been more interesting than this Hail Mary of a Cersei plot they're doing. Tywin having to deal with an enemy his entire world view is not only completely unequipped to deal with but he's been unwittingly strengthening their relative position with all his previous "success" would have been deeply gratifying and interesting, yeah. I suppose it could still happen with Littlefinger. fruit on the bottom posted:I kind of wish someone would give her that speech. Especially a part about how none of the common folk actually give a gently caress and just want to farm and live in peace and not have deal with all the political bullshit, and then they get their head cut off Jorah says this to her almost ver batim in the first season/book. [Un?]fortunately he did not get his head cut off nor is he particularly likely to now.
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Aug 3, 2017 02:04
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loving lol at the idiots choking over the show merging two Iron Island characters. Yes what we really needed was another rivalry among the poo poo raiders
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Aug 3, 2017 02:15
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I like how much the iron islanders are a focus of the plot in seasons 1-6. They got a big boat boner for them this season.
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Aug 3, 2017 02:19
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Mister Perky posted:Tywin having to deal with an enemy his entire world view is not only completely unequipped to deal with but he's been unwittingly strengthening their relative position with all his previous "success" would have been deeply gratifying and interesting, yeah. "Can't we just... put them in jail or something?"
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Aug 3, 2017 02:27
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tooterfish posted:From Jon's perspective (and anyone else sane), two men were tortured to death merely for expressing concern over a kidnapped family member, at the whim of a crazy fire obsessed dickhead who demanded unquestioning and undeserved fealty (sound like anyone we know?). Well friendship wasn't the only, or even main, motivation Robert had. It was Lyanna.
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Aug 3, 2017 02:41
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Well friendship wasn't the only, or even main, motivation Robert had. It was Lyanna. Yeah, if not for Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon, it's likely Robert would have just gone off and gotten himself killed, no real rebellion. Then Rhaegar would appear again with Lyanna and his babby and oust Aerys from the throne, assuming Aerys doesn't try to torch KL in that time and get shanked by Jaime. But with no sack of King's Landing I don't think Aerys would have gone for the mass murder suicide route.
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Aug 3, 2017 03:43
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show feels like its rushing forward now
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Aug 3, 2017 04:25
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Doorknob Slobber posted:show feels like its rushing forward now What would you like the show to slowdown and concentrate on? Brans journey to Winterfell? The love letters Grey Worm sent to Missandei on his way to Casterly Rock? Jon and Davos suckfest on the way to dragonstone? Arya horse riding through the riverlands and not running into the Hound?
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Aug 3, 2017 04:29
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Let's get more Bronn and more the Hound and less of everything else, please and thanks. In fact, that's what I want the spinoff that wins out to be. Bronn and the Hound buddy adventures.
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Aug 3, 2017 05:23
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