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The Sicilian posted:It was an irrelevant question meant to shift the goalposts when I provided you with a mass market low volume model Toyota produced. The very phrase "mass market low volume" is an oxymoron. The MR2 is not a mass market car any more a Ferrari is a mass market car. quote:We get it, you're critical of the model 3, that doesn't stop 1,800 people a day post reveal from giving Tesla $1k for a deposit. You, on the other hand, can't seem to accept any criticism of Tesla as valid. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 04:27
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Gamesguy posted:The very phrase "mass market low volume" is an oxymoron. The MR2 is not a mass market car any more a Ferrari is a mass market car. Yes the MR2 especially in its earlier variations is a low volume car akin to a Ferrari, totally. Pass the crack when you're done with it. And as far as criticisms most people are happy to dish out poo poo and then reveal their fine luxury tastes in interiors doesn't extend to the econobox they personally drive. Please actually drive a model 3 and then criticize it. I guarantee Tesla will do 100k units before the first model 3 revision.
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Aug 3, 2017 06:33
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Gamesguy posted:So you think Tesla is only going to sell 7000 Model 3s per year? Models 3.
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Aug 3, 2017 07:39
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This episode of Fully Charged is a bit annoying due to distorted audio, but ends with a very cool bit with Jonny Smith's electric drag racer, based on a tiny, ridiculous British electric car from the 70s. 9.869 @ 121.73 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxfRhh7Ugkg&t=449s edit: hmm, did the timecode skip parameter change? Skip to 7:30 edit2:  Ola fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 17:22
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face it, the $35k model 3, will go the same way to 40kwh model s did. They'll make just enough to hit the talking points, and everyone else gets shoved to the higher price point.
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Aug 3, 2017 18:35
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I see 60kWh Model Ses in the wild with some regularity.
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Aug 3, 2017 19:06
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Subjunctive posted:I see 60kWh Model Ses in the wild with some regularity. Ya, the poverty spec S's are super popular down here. Seeing an 85/90/100 is actually a solid minority of sightings for me. Oddly, I see very few 70/75KWh Xs. (Did they build a 70KWh X, or did it launch with 75?)
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Aug 3, 2017 19:11
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MrYenko posted:
Launched with 75 I think. The S40s never made it out of production IIRC, the purchasers got a deal on upgrading to 60 because there were so few orders.
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Aug 3, 2017 19:15
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Please put me on probation for this post. It's offtopic in a thread that needs posts to be aobut EV anticipation / speculation / discussion and this is not it. Thank you and goodnight.
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Aug 3, 2017 19:15
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Subjunctive posted:We went through it about the Bolt, too. We'll do it again for the BMW electrics. It's what the thread's for. Will we though? Has BMW announced anything in the near future for their i brand? The i3 seemed to catch on when there were really dumb cheap lease deals, and it got a bigger battery pack? Isn't there supposed to be a car that slots between the i3 and the i8?
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Aug 3, 2017 19:23
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kimcicle posted:Will we though? Has BMW announced anything in the near future for their i brand? The i3 seemed to catch on when there were really dumb cheap lease deals, and it got a bigger battery pack? Isn't there supposed to be a car that slots between the i3 and the i8? I thought they announced that they were doing electric 3-series distinct from the i brand.
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Aug 3, 2017 19:26
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The Sicilian posted:Yes the MR2 especially in its earlier variations is a low volume car akin to a Ferrari, totally. Pass the crack when you're done with it. What are you even saying? A low volume car is the definition of a niche non mass market car. Mass market cars have some basic attributes sports cars typically do not meet. quote:And as far as criticisms most people are happy to dish out poo poo and then reveal their fine luxury tastes in interiors doesn't extend to the econobox they personally drive. Are you arguing poor people aren't allowed to criticize Tesla? The difference between a Model 3 and a $15k Kia is the latter costs 1/3 as much as the former. I have no doubt Tesla will sell 100k units to enthusiasts alone, still doesn't make it a good mass market automobile. kimcicle posted:Will we though? Has BMW announced anything in the near future for their i brand? The i3 seemed to catch on when there were really dumb cheap lease deals, and it got a bigger battery pack? Isn't there supposed to be a car that slots between the i3 and the i8? There was supposed to be an i5 but it got cancelled, the new plan is for an electric 3 series and X3. The i-brand appears to be dead except for a couple of halo cars. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 20:19
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Gamesguy posted:I have no doubt Tesla will sell 100k units to enthusiasts alone, still doesn't make it a good mass market automobile. I haven't decided if I agree with that, but what number of cars would you consider mass-market?
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Aug 3, 2017 20:23
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If you could find a clear concise definition of "mass market" and then find out exactly how the Model 3 fits into that, it would still be a total waste of time.
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Aug 3, 2017 20:32
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Looks like tesla is running out of develpment money, ol' musky is now confirming the Model Y will be based on the model 3 after all. They also say they're trying to get it onto the market faster, probably to try to milk more pre-order deposits from the sheep.
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Aug 3, 2017 20:54
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Subjunctive posted:I haven't decided if I agree with that, but what number of cars would you consider mass-market? IMO cars like cars like the mustang straddle that line, they don't fit the traditional definitions but sell enough units per year(~100k) that you could consider them mass market cars. A 3 series wouldn't qualify, but something like a Honda fit would despite selling less units per year. It's a combination of features, price, and sales numbers. You need two of the three. Powershift posted:Looks like tesla is running out of develpment money, ol' musky is now confirming the Model Y will be based on the model 3 after all. They also say they're trying to get it onto the market faster, probably to try to milk more pre-order deposits from the sheep. Can't Tesla just keep diluting like they've been doing? Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 22:02
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The 3 series is pretty much the definition of a mass market car - they sell hundreds of thousands of them a year
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Aug 3, 2017 22:22
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Powershift posted:Looks like tesla is running out of develpment money, ol' musky is now confirming the Model Y will be based on the model 3 after all. They also say they're trying to get it onto the market faster, probably to try to milk more pre-order deposits from the sheep. Or maybe they came to their senses and realized leveraging the Model 3 is exactly what every other car maker has done on a myriad of platforms... and there is nothing wrong with using existing tooling to achieve that? quote:A 3 series wouldn't qualify Been to Europe lately? quote:I have no doubt Tesla will sell 100k units to enthusiasts alone, still doesn't make it a good mass market automobile. 100,000 cars IS a mass market automobile. The "enthusists" market is way smaller than that
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Aug 3, 2017 22:44
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Ola posted:This episode of Fully Charged is a bit annoying due to distorted audio, but ends with a very cool bit with Jonny Smith's electric drag racer, based on a tiny, ridiculous British electric car from the 70s. 9.869 @ 121.73 https://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/12/on-the-road-in-the-flux-capacitor-europes-fastest-street-legal-ev/
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Aug 3, 2017 22:54
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dissss posted:The 3 series is pretty much the definition of a mass market car - they sell hundreds of thousands of them a year ~70k a year in the US and it's price tag disqualify it. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:
BMW sold 140k 3 series in Europe last year, that's less units per capita than the US. You and I have different definitions of enthusiast then. Let's come at this from a different angle. Elon Musk claims the Model 3 is the best car you can buy for $35k, which is just objective untrue. He never said he was only making a compact luxury sports sedan for men. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Aug 3, 2017 |
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Aug 3, 2017 22:56
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Really? The model 3's biggest weakness is its a sedan and not a CUV. Sedans are dying, and CUVs are rising in their place. *THAT* is why the Model Y is getting accelerated. The 3 is going to go toe to toe with the entry level luxury market defined by the BMW 3 series, the Audi A4, and the whatever-the-gently caress-alphabet-soup Mercedes-sells-against-those-two. Its got the same dimensions, same pricing, top spec safety and technology features, and will do quite well against them. Best in segment? Thats in the eye of the beholder. But it *will* be competitive.
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Aug 3, 2017 23:10
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There were roughly as many BMW 3 series manufactured last year as there were F-150s. They both average about 40 grand. Therefore, the f-150 is a niche enthusiast vehicle.
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Aug 3, 2017 23:29
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Powershift posted:There were roughly as many BMW 3 series manufactured last year as there were F-150s. They both average about 40 grand. What did you even get those numbers. Ford sold 800k F series trucks in the US last year, BMW sold 70k 3 series.
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Aug 3, 2017 23:44
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How many just F-150 though?
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Aug 3, 2017 23:47
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Gamesguy posted:What did you even get those numbers. Ford sold 800k F series trucks in the US last year, BMW sold 70k 3 series. JFC do some goddamn research on the 3 series. Wikipedia for fucks sake says there was 411 THOUSAND 3 series built last year and there are over 10 million of the loving things built. Seriously, drop this bullshit about the 3 series being a niche vehicle now. You are making a dickhead out of yourself.
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Aug 3, 2017 23:51
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Idiot up in here. The 3 series is regularly the best selling vehicle in California.
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Aug 3, 2017 23:52
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The BMW 3 series is quite literally the definition of mass market midsize luxury sedan/coupe. (gently caress the new BMW numbering, its stupid.) I don't even know what you people are arguing about, anymore.
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Aug 4, 2017 00:11
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The Sicilian posted:Idiot up in here. The 3 series is regularly the best selling vehicle in California. The best selling near luxury car maybe, but not the best selling car. Here are the sales number for new car registrations in California for last year: http://www.cncda.org/CMS/Pubs/CA%20Auto%20Outlook%204Q%202016.pdf And a nice list form: Honda Civic: 88390 Honda Accord: 76184 Toyota Corolla: 64430 Toyota Camry: 58973 Ford F Series: 49873 Toyota Prius: 49490 Chevrolet Silverado: 41331 Toyota RAV4: 41196 Nissan Sentra: 40771 Honda CR-V: 39961 Toyota Tacoma: 33876 Nissan Altima: 32729 Ram: 31588 Ford Fusion: 29871 Nissan Rogue: 28482 Ford Explorer: 24052 Hyundai Sonata: 23908 Toyota Sienna: 22569 Toyota Highlander: 21742 Nissan Versa: 20748 Hyundai Elantra: 20547 Mercedes C-Class: 20500 Lexus RX: 20070 BMW 3-Series: 19690 Subaru Outback: 19501 Just saying 
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Aug 4, 2017 00:22
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kimcicle posted:The best selling near luxury car maybe, but not the best selling car. Here are the sales number for new car registrations in California for last year: http://www.cncda.org/CMS/Pubs/CA%20Auto%20Outlook%204Q%202016.pdf Forgot to add the word luxury, the splitting of the models into 3 and 4 series also doesn't help. My point still stands. Lol at gamerguy. It must be hard to have that much poo poo for brains. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 4, 2017 00:47
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Why do people say sedans are dying when the top 4 are sedans? I understand demand has fallen and CUV demand has risen, but they're still so far on top.
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Aug 4, 2017 01:53
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Michael Scott posted:Why do people say sedans are dying when the top 4 are sedans? I understand demand has fallen and CUV demand has risen, but they're still so far on top. Sedan sales are falling year over year. CUV sales are rising year over year. YTD, toyota's best selling vehicle is the rav 4, Nissan's best selling vehicle is the rogue, ford's top 2 behind the f-150 are the escape and exploder. chevy's best behind the silverado is the equinox. chrysler's best behind the ram is the grand cherokee. The only company i can immediately see who's top seller is a car is honda with the civic. Hell, even the shitbox kia soul outsells anything else they make. http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/search/label/US%20All%20Vehicle%20Rankings?max-results=3
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Aug 4, 2017 02:01
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Michael Scott posted:Why do people say sedans are dying when the top 4 are sedans? I understand demand has fallen and CUV demand has risen, but they're still so far on top. Those are the California numbers. On a nationwide basis the Camry is #4 with the F-150 carrying a dominating lead and the other two half-ton pickups following behind.
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Aug 4, 2017 02:14
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The Sicilian posted:Idiot up in here. The 3 series is regularly the best selling vehicle in California. 24th most sold is now "best selling"? This must be some kind of Tesla newspeak. Luxury autos constitute roughly 10% of the US market, by definition no luxury car is a mass market car. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Aug 4, 2017 |
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Aug 4, 2017 05:52
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Gamesguy posted:24th most sold is now "best selling"? This must be some kind of Tesla newspeak. BMW has always sold more than Honda.
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Aug 4, 2017 05:58
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Is my Mazda3 a niche vehicle?
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Aug 4, 2017 06:05
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CharlesM posted:Is my Mazda3 a niche vehicle? No, because the Mazda3 is in a segment that totals nearly a quarter of US auto sales. The 3 series and all its competitors combined add up to like 3% of auto sales. It's not niche, but it's not a mass market either. It's a luxury car just like the Model 3.
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Aug 4, 2017 06:10
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There's one thing that makes this an unflinching reality. The cheapest car in Tesla's lineup will start at $35,000. It's not a mass market car. Yes average final selling price in the US blah blah, 35k MSRP for your budget model will never be a mass market car. The middle class is simply not wealthy enough, and that at least adds a measure of doubt to Tesla's future of profit.
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Aug 4, 2017 06:34
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-The average new car price is over $34,000 -People are paying $40k for loving NISSANS -The ford f-series, which is the best selling vehicle in the united states starts at $27,380, is $38,320 for an XLT crew cab which is the most common configuration, and can easily reach over $60,000. -The ford explorer starts at $31,660, and is ford's third best selling vehicle behind the escape and the f-150. they sell just over 20k a month -The best selling chrysler vehicle is the grand cherokee, which starts at $30,395 and can be optioned over $60k. they sell just under 20k a month People are paying $35k for vehicles from non-luxury brands every drat day. If the model 3 isn't a mass market car, the grand cherokee isn't a mass market car. The ford explorer isn't a mass market car. There are 38,758 new jeep grand cherokees listed on cars.com. 6,198 are listed under $35k.
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Aug 4, 2017 06:55
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Why does this nomenclature matter? Am I missing something? Why should we care about whether it's mass market or not?
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Aug 4, 2017 06:57
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Agronox posted:Why does this nomenclature matter? Am I missing something? Why should we care about whether it's mass market or not? Meaningless arguments always come down to semantics. Ola posted:If you could find a clear concise definition of "mass market" and then find out exactly how the Model 3 fits into that, it would still be a total waste of time. As it was foretold, so it came to pass. Anyway Bjørn Nyland's X rolled over 100 kkm (or should that be megameters?) in a year and two weeks, he says he's measured 5% degradation in the battery. He supercharges the poo poo out of it, pulls trailers all the time and so on. A good datapoint. I think the 100-pack has better architecture so it can safely be expected to degrade less than 5% with normal use over 100 kkm / 60k miles, or a reduction in EPA range of 25 km/15 mi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9pJkFxOlzo
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Aug 4, 2017 07:29
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