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sassassin posted:He's not really much different from Sauron and Saruman in how he operates, only in his choice of allies. Posh hobbits, elvish nobility and horselords vs. history's downtrodden underclasses.
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Aug 4, 2017 14:24
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I deeply appreciate how this thread consists mostly of bullshitting about subversive readings.
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Aug 4, 2017 19:35
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When I was a teenage atheist I convinced myself for a minute that Tolkien intentionally wrote the Sil stories as Elvish religious propaganda and that there was no evidence for Eru Iluvatar actually existing. Now I'm happy to just accept that one of my favorite authors was a Catholic!
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Aug 4, 2017 19:46
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Ashcans posted:I suppose that Gandalf could have tried to get him to bury it in the back yard or something instead of holding on to it. They actually discuss this during the meeting in Rivendell - something about throwing it into the ocean. But someone (Gandalf maybe) says no, they have to solve it here for all time, not punt it down the road for future generations, because they know the Ring will find a way to turn up again like it did after it was lost in the Gladden Fields.
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Aug 4, 2017 20:44
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Ashcans posted:Gandalf definitely uses people to further his ends, but I am pretty comfortable saying that there is a significant difference between him manipulating various people toward his goals and the guy who literally schemed to turn people into undying wraiths bound to his will. Sauron only did that to the ruling classes, it was never widespread public policy. Radagast is the only truly moral maiar/wizard in the books, and even he was portrayed as likely to seek to enforce his form of order on middle earth eventually (as Man continued to encroach upon nature).
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Aug 4, 2017 20:56
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Bongo Bill posted:I deeply appreciate how this thread consists mostly of bullshitting about subversive readings. I like thinking about LOTR from the point of view of one of the thousands of Gondorian peasants living in one of those western parts of Gondor directly south of the White Mountains. "Well so I guess the Evil One arose in Mordor and came out with a huge army of monsters? Or something? And we won? I dunno, I was busy fixing the barn roof and drinking homebrew and having sex with my wife."
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Aug 4, 2017 21:14
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hannibal posted:They actually discuss this during the meeting in Rivendell - something about throwing it into the ocean. But someone (Gandalf maybe) says no, they have to solve it here for all time, not punt it down the road for future generations, because they know the Ring will find a way to turn up again like it did after it was lost in the Gladden Fields. Glorfindel suggests it, Gandalf shoots him down. It's right after they've floated a bunch of alternative solutions -- giving it to Bombadil (he doesn't care enough about it), sending it to Valinor (the gods wouldn't let you, according to Elrond), or hiding it away in Rivendell or Lorien or the Havens (they aren't strong enough to defy Sauron). Gandalf brings up that the lands and seas may change in the future and the ring be brought to light again, which is a pretty fair point honestly. They also make an argument against trying to send it overseas because that's what Sauron will expect them to do (?) and he will try and seize the Ring on the way to the Havens -- not really clear how since the Nazgul don't seem to be about again yet. Then right after that Boromir wonders why all they can talk about is "hiding and destroying", etc. My point/joke was not that Gandalf had so many better options because he obviously didn't, but that he left Frodo in a desperately risky situation without even letting him know what was going on. Frodo is understandably pretty upset when he figures out what was going on. In "Shadow of the Past", when Gandalf lets on that Bilbo's ring was a Ring of Power, Frodo asks him how long he's known, and if Bilbo knew. Gandalf evades the first question and answers the second, exonerates Bilbo of blame. Frodo asks again how long he has known about the Ring, and Gandalf gets kind of testy with him: quote:‘Known?’ said Gandalf. ‘I have known much that only the Wise know, Frodo. But if you mean “known about this ring”, well, I still do not know, one might say. There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess. In other words, he has been at least suspicious about the Ring, and felt certain it was a ring of power, for longer than Frodo has been alive. He goes on to explain to Frodo a bit about the history of the Ring, how Sauron lost it, Gollum, etc. Frodo is still kind of worried that Gandalf is jerking him around here: quote:“But how have you learned all this about the Ring, and about Gollum? Do you really know it all, or are you just guessing still?’ Gandalf is feeling a bit needled here. Frodo's overriding concern seems to be whether Gandalf was aware that he was leaving Frodo ignorantly in keeping of a deadly powerful magical artifact that destroys its owner, or whether he was himself negligent and ignorant about a deadly powerful magical artifact. It seems that there's a bit of both, which doesn't exactly reassure Frodo. Later in their conversation Gandalf tries to give a better accounting of his behavior: quote:“All the same,’ said Frodo, ‘even if Bilbo could not kill Gollum, I wish he had not kept the Ring. I wish he had never found it, and that I had not got it! Why did you let me keep it? Why didn’t you make me throw it away, or destroy it?’ This still doesn't console Frodo very much. He doesn't blame Gandalf for anything because the situation is obviously not Gandalf's fault, and because without him he would still be completely clueless, and because going forward Gandalf's advice is really all he has to go on. But in the course of the conversation it's clear he feels kind of hard done by.
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Aug 4, 2017 21:14
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Elrond just doesn't want to have to call another Council in a thousand years with the same faces asking the same questions. "Where should we hide it this time?" "Well, Anduin didn't work, and the sea didn't work. Maybe a really deep shaft in Moria?"
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Aug 4, 2017 21:20
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hannibal posted:They actually discuss this during the meeting in Rivendell - something about throwing it into the ocean. But someone (Gandalf maybe) says no, they have to solve it here for all time, not punt it down the road for future generations, because they know the Ring will find a way to turn up again like it did after it was lost in the Gladden Fields. Even if it doesn't turn up again, the free peoples are still losing the war badly, since its works survive (like the foundations of Barad-dur) and Sauron still has access to most of his native power (which would be increased again if he got it back). They would've been totally defeated if not for the ring's destruction.
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Aug 4, 2017 22:18
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skasion posted:Glorfindel suggests it, Gandalf shoots him down. It's right after they've floated a bunch of alternative solutions -- giving it to Bombadil (he doesn't care enough about it), sending it to Valinor (the gods wouldn't let you, according to Elrond), or hiding it away in Rivendell or Lorien or the Havens (they aren't strong enough to defy Sauron). Gandalf brings up that the lands and seas may change in the future and the ring be brought to light again, which is a pretty fair point honestly. They also make an argument against trying to send it overseas because that's what Sauron will expect them to do (?) and he will try and seize the Ring on the way to the Havens -- not really clear how since the Nazgul don't seem to be about again yet. ? The orcs talk about the flying beasts on the trip to isengard after the fellowship splits. So at least by then, I guess.
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Aug 4, 2017 22:51
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SHISHKABOB posted:How long did it take them to get back to running around Before that Legolas shoots one of their beasts over the eastern bank of Anduin at Sarn Gebir (23 February). Frodo crosses Bruinen on 20 October so it's four months at most. When they're still at Rivendell (Nov/Dec) Elrond sends out scouts including his sons to check for any sign of the Nazgul; they find their horses drowned downstream of the ford and Gandalf concludes that they have fled back to Mordor and that, if they leave now, the Riders will need to track back to Rivendell before they can pick up any trail to follow the Fellowship.
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Aug 4, 2017 23:06
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sat on my keys! posted:Even if it doesn't turn up again, the free peoples are still losing the war badly, since its works survive (like the foundations of Barad-dur) and Sauron still has access to most of his native power (which would be increased again if he got it back). They would've been totally defeated if not for the ring's destruction. Taking an extreme long view, it sort of doesn't matter, though. Wait long enough and the Dagor Dagorath happens and Melkor is defeated. The Men aren't even involved in the Last Battle so ehhh if they all die.
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Aug 4, 2017 23:12
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webmeister posted:Elrond just doesn't want to have to call another Council in a thousand years with the same faces asking the same questions. Imagine, if you will, a Balrog just sleepin it off in the deep places, waking up in a foul mood because some Durin or other dropped a rock on his head, and then here comes the Ring looking for a new owner at the bottom of the deepest hole in the mountain. We're talking a whole new Sauron here. Kinda makes you glad Gandalf won his fight. Dude had a ring of power on him when he fell-- a ring of fire, no less. Might have given him a slight edge in the fight, since I suspect a Balrog is a higher order of Maiar than an Istari, but that's still a hell of an artifact to risk giving to a demon of ancient Beleriand.
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Aug 5, 2017 00:33
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I don't the power levels of balrogs and Gandalf is ever explicated. Gandalf is more than an Istari since he has a ring.
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Aug 5, 2017 00:41
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euphronius posted:I don't the power levels of balrogs and Gandalf is ever explicated. Gandalf is more than an Istari since he has a ring. There's a section in Book of Lost Tales that explicates the relative power levels and history of the Istari a bit, but yeah, there's no direct comparison, and even it is ambiguous (I think Manwe implies saruman is more powerful and his wife implies olorin, ie., Gandalf, is). Balrogs as I understand it are just Maiar who joined Team Badguy and also invest power into a particular physical form, so some balrogs were more powerful and some less, like other Maiar. Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was defeated by Ecthelion of the Fountain, a Noldor, but Feanor himself was defeated by a group of Balrogs. And of course Gandalf's power was mostly veiled in human form, too.
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Aug 5, 2017 01:16
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Right and Gandalf having a Ring throws it all off. Since he beat Durins Bane I guess his power levels were higher that day. Gandalf the White vs the Witch King is an interesting question too.
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Aug 5, 2017 01:19
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Rereading it's interesting Galadriel sends out a search party for Gandalf. The party tells her he fell into an endless pit but she still looks for him.
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Aug 5, 2017 01:22
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Not just any ring: the Ring of Fire specifically. Which is why Gandalf knows the Dark Fire will not avail the Balrog: Gandalf has geared up for the encounter. And yeah Death of the Mentor is an overused trope today but when I was a kid having read The Hobbit at a really young age and then moving on to LotR when only slightly older, that first time you read Gandalf going over the edge, holy poo poo, it was like getting hit by a truck Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Aug 5, 2017 |
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Aug 5, 2017 01:36
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Radio! posted:Taking an extreme long view, it sort of doesn't matter, though. Wait long enough and the Dagor Dagorath happens and Melkor is defeated. The Men aren't even involved in the Last Battle so ehhh if they all die. Turin Turambar 
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Aug 5, 2017 09:48
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Ashcans posted:I suppose that Gandalf could have tried to get him to bury it in the back yard or something instead of holding on to it. Or just drop it in a loving hole. Worked for one of the Silmarils.
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Aug 5, 2017 16:17
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HerraS posted:Turin Turambar Iluvatar takes one look at Turin and goes "YIKES you guys can keep this one".
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Aug 5, 2017 16:26
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Or just drop it in a loving hole. Worked for one of the Silmarils. Tbh I never understood this bit: okay it's probably hard to get things out of fiery chasms in the earth even if you're a god, but why couldn't Ulmo just fish out the one that got thrown into the sea? The gods weren't obviously resigned to losing the Silmarils before they got thrown down there, they were actively trying to bring them back to Valinor when Maedhros and Maglor stole them, so why did they just let them sit down at the bottom of the world after the fact? Were they just too dispirited to even bother?
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Aug 5, 2017 16:33
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skasion posted:Tbh I never understood this bit: okay it's probably hard to get things out of fiery chasms in the earth even if you're a god, but why couldn't Ulmo just fish out the one that got thrown into the sea? The gods weren't obviously resigned to losing the Silmarils before they got thrown down there, they were actively trying to bring them back to Valinor when Maedhros and Maglor stole them, so why did they just let them sit down at the bottom of the world after the fact? Were they just too dispirited to even bother? Arkenstone is that Silmaril but everyone is pretending it isn't because the political implications would cause too much strife
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Aug 5, 2017 16:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Arkenstone is that Silmaril but everyone is pretending it isn't because the political implications would cause too much strife Considering the Silmarils are like the platonic ideal of a MacGuffin and their only real power beyond glowing is 'everyone wants them' I don't think it would be possible to pretend a Silmaril was anything but. Like I always got the impression that they were at least as 'magnetic' as the Ring.
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Aug 5, 2017 17:01
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When The Hobbit was first written and not yet coherently linked to the myths of Beleriand & the Noldor, the Arkenstone was basically a repurposed Silmaril, in the same way as the elvenking of Mirkwood was basically a repurposed Thingol (or the Necromancer a repurposed Thu, or Elrond a repurposed Elrond). When rendering myths from this era into Old English Tolkien even rendered "silmaril" as "eorcanstan" so it's pretty obvious.
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Aug 5, 2017 17:13
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Considering the Silmarils are like the platonic ideal of a MacGuffin and their only real power beyond glowing is 'everyone wants them' I don't think it would be possible to pretend a Silmaril was anything but. Like I always got the impression that they were at least as 'magnetic' as the Ring. Maybe the fires of the earth damaged it. I mean, it did draw down a dragon.
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Aug 5, 2017 17:38
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skasion posted:When rendering myths from this era into Old English Tolkien even rendered "silmaril" as "eorcanstan" so it's pretty obvious. Okay this is actually super cool. Where did you learn that?
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Aug 5, 2017 17:40
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Radio! posted:Okay this is actually super cool. Where did you learn that? It's somewhere in the early books of History of Middle Earth, Lays of Beleriand maybe? e: real talk though, the Arkenstone isn't consistent with the Silmarils as Tolkien eventually conceived of them. Probably the most obvious magical power of the Silmarils, that they were enchanted by Varda to burn those who try to possess them undeservingly, is totally incompatible with Bilbo blithely stealing one. skasion fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 5, 2017 |
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Aug 5, 2017 17:43
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Also the Tolkien Professor guy went over it in one of the early Return of the Shadow episodes  E: he also said Rivendell means "valley with a river in it" so 
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Aug 5, 2017 17:50
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I'm still disappointed I can't find The History of Middle Earth series as an ebook. 
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Aug 5, 2017 17:53
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skasion posted:It's somewhere in the early books of History of Middle Earth, Lays of Beleriand maybe? He didn't steal it! He chose his own fourteenth share! Also, Bilbo didn't steal it to possess it, but to transfer it to another. He's basically Beren in this scenario. I also like the theory that the Arkenstone was one of Feanor's practice-pieces.
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Aug 5, 2017 18:16
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Feanor would cast his practice-pieces into the depths of the earth, the overly-dramatic rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 5, 2017 18:43
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I thought the Silmaril thing was that there's one in the earth, sea and sky in the end.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:23
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hannibal posted:I thought the Silmaril thing was that there's one in the earth, sea and sky in the end. Such was my take.
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Aug 5, 2017 21:52
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hannibal posted:I thought the Silmaril thing was that there's one in the earth, sea and sky in the end. Sure if you want the "official" reading
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Aug 5, 2017 22:07
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That's what the text says. The two never get mentioned again after they are lost, and the third got turned into a star or whatever.
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Aug 5, 2017 22:21
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SHISHKABOB posted:That's what the text says. The two never get mentioned again after they are lost, and the third got turned into a star or whatever. Elvish fairy tales.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:01
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The real Silmaril is late-stage colonial ideology.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:28
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Everything the elves and wizards say is FAKE NEWS and Denethor was right
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Aug 6, 2017 02:57
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sassassin posted:Elvish fairy tales. Which part, the silmarils or what happened to them?
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Aug 6, 2017 03:18
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