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Neeksy posted:Man Danes have a lot of different flavor of right wing parties but only one left. That sounds like hell, like USA-level hell. I count four with names containing left, red or social, and you are telling me it is just one?  Also, the no true socialism argument is not a good one.
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Aug 5, 2017 05:58
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Cardiac posted:I count four with names containing left, red or social, and you are telling me it is just one? Denmark has been pre-dominantly conservative for so long that I feel like it applies. For example, danes hated immigrants decades before it was cool. Just like Sweden spent the decades leading up to 2015 becoming more liberal in its views on immigration Denmark spent that time becoming more restrictive*. This is not a true scotman's fallacy affair, those parties aren't 'left' by any meaningful metric. *EDIT: It's a very popular subject of social studies since we're so similar by other metrics. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Aug 5, 2017 |
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Aug 5, 2017 06:30
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Cardiac posted:I count four with names containing left, red or social, and you are telling me it is just one? Cardiac posted:Also, the no true socialism argument is not a good one. 1990's: The Moderates extol the need the need for solidarity in this new post-USSR world. They deliberalize the labor market, to ensure that no Swede has to fear the loss of their job in the case of an economic downturn. 2000's: The Moderates support the Social Democrats in instituting UBI, and various reforms that increases welfare payments, as well as the ease of getting them. 2010's: The Moderates continue instituting policies along those lines, nationalize a few major Swedish corporations, and start talking about how opposing capitalists is the core job of their party. Are the Moderates still a "moderate" party?
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Aug 5, 2017 06:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The Liberal Party is called Venstre (Left) because it was the leftmost (only) alternative to the anti-democratic pro-royal power Højre (Right, now called the conservatives). As time went on, this party and the country evolved to the point that a faction of more liberal-minded politicians broke off from the main party, and created the Radical Left party. Radical because it wanted universal suffrage. The parties are and only ever were left-wing in the French Revolution sense, not in the socialist sense. Sorry, I missed the Radical Left and wasn't counting Venstre anyways. Three then, social democrats, red-greens and socialist left? A Buttery Pastry posted:Imagine this: Is this an actual example from Danish politics? If so, which party? Also, I would expect political parties to change with time and voter populations. Examples are C in Sweden who used to be the farmers party and now went libertarian/well-meaning inner city liberals and incidentally from negative to positive on immigration as in open borders means better business. I can remember one C politician in Sjöbo in the 90s who would right in today's SD. Even V have changed a lot and is no longer an obvious puppet party for USSR. Why no true socialist doesn't hold is because it is mostly used in left wing rhetorics as means to say "look at us, we are the true socialist party", the others are fakes and therefore their failures are not the fault of socialism. Cue Life of Brian.
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Aug 5, 2017 06:51
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I asked my GF's mother if she was left-wing and it came across as "did she support Venstre"... and hoo boy did she not.
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Aug 5, 2017 06:59
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Cardiac posted:Why no true socialist doesn't hold is because it is mostly used in left wing rhetorics as means to say "look at us, we are the true socialist party", the others are fakes and therefore their failures are not the fault of socialism. Cue Life of Brian. I think the context of 2017 most would consider left socially progressive and economically progressive. Think Corbyn, Sanders, Melencheon, etc. Like we're not talking about any high-bar of Marxists hand-whinging about what is truly SOCIALISM here (like D&D loves to do), just basic social democracy. Jumping from that point, most of the parties we are talking about here in Denmarks case don't match 2017's standards as they are socially conservative and/or economically liberal. 10 years ago being left meant being economically liberal and being right meant being socially progressive, both which are certainly not the case today. Political definitions and perspectives are not rigid constructs, they change over time.
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Aug 5, 2017 07:12
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Cardiac posted:Sorry, I missed the Radical Left and wasn't counting Venstre anyways.  Cardiac posted:Is this an actual example from Danish politics? If so, which party? Cardiac posted:Also, I would expect political parties to change with time and voter populations. Cardiac posted:Why no true socialist doesn't hold is because it is mostly used in left wing rhetorics as means to say "look at us, we are the true socialist party", the others are fakes and therefore their failures are not the fault of socialism. Cue Life of Brian. Like, take the Red-Green Alliance/Unity List/Enhedslisten - it's literally based on the idea that we should abandon this splitter attitude because it's loving dumb, and the party is nearing its 30th birthday. Ideologically it's probably one of the most diverse in terms of their membership, since it's basically just a collection of people who want to overthrow capitalism. The membership ranges from Stalinists/Trotskyists/Maoist on the one hand, to various democratic/anarchist socialist on the other, and probably quite a few classic social democrats too. Like MiddleOne says, I'd accept a classic social democrat (or their modern more explicitly socially progressive version) as left-wing, but I'm not going to accept a pro-privatizing anti-welfare politician as left-wing, for obvious reasons.
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Aug 5, 2017 07:29
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There are two 'leftist' parties in DK. Enhedslisten and Socialistisk Folkeparti. The latter being mainly a populistic party, and seemingly turns as the wind blows, whether it's about being though on immigrants or being fiscally conservative, so who knows what they'll do. Alternativet has leftish perspectives as well (on climate in particular), but it hard to pinpoint because they have no actual policies, certainly socially progressive. Other than that there are a couple of centrist parties like Radikale Venstre, and the centre-right Social Demokratiet (used to be a classical workers party, like the British Labour, but 'third wayed' themselves into being centre-right). The rest are various flavored of right wing political ideologies, neo-classical capitalist - venstre. Literal, comedy hour, Ayn Rand libertarians - Liberal Alliance. Classical royalist/nationalist conservative (Konservative). An actual, honest to god, trump-style alt-right party - Nye Borgerlige. And of course, one of the biggest parties in Denmark, populist and nationalist, outspokenly racist - Dansk Folkeparti.
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Aug 5, 2017 09:18
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Like, take the Red-Green Alliance/Unity List/Enhedslisten - it's literally based on the idea that we should abandon this splitter attitude because it's loving dumb, and the party is nearing its 30th birthday. Ideologically it's probably one of the most diverse in terms of their membership, since it's basically just a collection of people who want to overthrow capitalism. The membership ranges from Stalinists/Trotskyists/Maoist on the one hand, to various democratic/anarchist socialist on the other, and probably quite a few classic social democrats too. Like MiddleOne says, I'd accept a classic social democrat (or their modern more explicitly socially progressive version) as left-wing, but I'm not going to accept a pro-privatizing anti-welfare politician as left-wing, for obvious reasons. The talk about splitters and ideological purity tests seems really weird since at least Northern Europe seems to tend towards big tent type left-wing parties. For instance, here in Finland the various parties on the left formed the Left Alliance in 1990 and it hasn't splintered since then. There's three tiny communist parties who all get less than 1 percent of the vote put together and aren't represented in parliament, but no one really pays them any mind. Arguably there are problems with the big tent left parties on account of them being ideologically incoherent and from that you get a lack of actual goals.
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Aug 5, 2017 10:54
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Kemper Boyd posted:The talk about splitters and ideological purity tests seems really weird since at least Northern Europe seems to tend towards big tent type left-wing parties. People have a tendency to look at France and the UK and assume that's how it went in every European nation.
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Aug 5, 2017 11:51
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Naser Khader, who recently came out in favour of literal old school colonialism, is backing the Danish People's Party in their call to mobilise the military to fight gang crime. I'm currently residing inside a no-probable-cause-required-zone. Rust Martialis posted:I'm moving to Denmark this month from Canada. The state of Danish politics still befuddles me after the OP, and as a non-citizen I suppose I have time to learn. I'll be joining PROSA as I have a job at NNIT. My Danish so far is via completing Duolingo and repeatedly redoing lessons, so I suspect reading a deep review of Danish politics in Danish is going to have to wait... Anden spiser ikke kød, etc. I've worked there, enjoy the awesome cafeteria. Condoleezza Nice! posted:What happened to Enhedslisten? They're preparing their voters for further rightward shifts, completing the last stage of the metamorphosis into Social Democrats, and have recently said that immigration is a topic not worthy of final demands in future coalition negotiations. They've obviously learned very little from the shitshow last time, where they notably voted in favour of welfare cuts and war. Wonder how that will turn out if Social Democrat Henrik Sass gets his way and they institute "Australian model" third world concentration/rape camps for refugees. Lima posted:Everyone wants a slice of DF's pie, including the social democrats. Also, they seem to have a bit of an issue with neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers and violent criminals and people defending molotov attacks on children constantly joining their ranks, but oh well, that's Danish politics for ya.  A Buttery Pastry posted:The Social Democrats changed against the wishes of the voter population, hence losing about a third of their voters. Two years into Thorning's leadership they were lower in the polls than they'd been since before Systemskiftet. That's quite an accomplishment.
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Aug 5, 2017 14:48
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SplitSoul posted:Also, they seem to have a bit of an issue with neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers and violent criminals and people defending molotov attacks on children constantly joining their ranks, but oh well, that's Danish politics for ya. Allow anyone with a pulse to join and weed out the village idiots later seems to be how you manage a party in tyool 2017. I'm not sure NB will ever get to the latter part though 
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Aug 5, 2017 16:44
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One thing that troubles me is the whole Øresund region deal where Danes can live in say, Malmö, and avoid things like the car registration tax. That just seems like something put in to please high income Danes who want to drive expensive cars at a trade-off of 30 minutes more drive to work... and now they're talking about extending the Metro across?
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Aug 5, 2017 17:02
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Rust Martialis posted:One thing that troubles me is the whole Øresund region deal where Danes can live in say, Malmö, and avoid things like the car registration tax. That just seems like something put in to please high income Danes who want to drive expensive cars at a trade-off of 30 minutes more drive to work... and now they're talking about extending the Metro across?
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Aug 5, 2017 17:08
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Saw Bjørnie speak. House was packed. Four times the turnout of the other parties. His speech was good, some recycled stuff from the 1. May speech, but still a strong message. Sort of surprised by the "we're not going to take your house/apartment" thing. I always thought socialized housing and abolishing that kind of property was a big thing for Red. I guess even Bjørnie won't touch the housing bubble. Also, you'd think if he's being that pragmatic this time around he'd move a bit on the NATO question too. Maybe call for some kind of reform in addition to cancelling stupid poo poo like the F-35 purchase. Instead, they seem to be using the massive unpopularity of Trump as an opportunity to bash it. Bjørnie does not really have any answer other than "we'd rather risk being stomped than contributing to any stomping" which is admirable but not very reassuring to me in this scary world. In addition to having the support of old-school radicals and the "dirtbag left" he's reaching his hand out to more conventionally liberal social democrats with the message that a battle of values is important, but not sustainable without economic reform, and he comes off as quite convincing I think. Meanwhile Støre is trying to compete with the right in regards to tax cuts, so I doubt Red will have to worry much about Støres statement that he will never form a government with them, he won't have the chance to form any. Anyway, Moxnes has my vote. He's got principles, and is willing to fight for them on an arena that is not limited to the relative political safety of identity politics while capital runs off with all the cash and we continue the slide into a class-divided country.
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Aug 6, 2017 02:32
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So what are the chances of Rødt actually getting into parliament this year? Seems people are always predicting it, but it never seems to happen. Also, do you mean to say that Ap won't get the chance to form a government? Last time I looked at the polls they seemed to be in a pretty good spot to do so if they dragged Sp along.
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Aug 6, 2017 08:51
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Randarkman posted:So what are the chances of Rødt actually getting into parliament this year? Seems people are always predicting it, but it never seems to happen. R getting into parliament is fairly dependent on how SV does, if they look to be safely above 4% you'll see a non-trivial (for this context) amount of swing voters come down on the R side and probably getting Moxnes into parliament Previously their hottest shot was Dahle, but Bergen isn't as attractive a prospect for R as Oslo, and with the left looking dangerously close to being wiped out in the last election a bunch of people rallied to SV to try and shore them up
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Aug 6, 2017 11:16
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Biomute posted:Saw Bjørnie speak. House was packed. Four times the turnout of the other parties. Hell yeah. Biomute posted:Sort of surprised by the "we're not going to take your house/apartment" thing. I always thought socialized housing and abolishing that kind of property was a big thing for Red. I guess even Bjørnie won't touch the housing bubble. I read that as trying to put distance between himself and AKP(m-l), which in 2017 is still a thing that anyone left of Ap is forced to do. Biomute posted:Also, you'd think if he's being that pragmatic this time around he'd move a bit on the NATO question too. Maybe call for some kind of reform in addition to cancelling stupid poo poo like the F-35 purchase. Instead, they seem to be using the massive unpopularity of Trump as an opportunity to bash it. Bjørnie does not really have any answer other than "we'd rather risk being stomped than contributing to any stomping" which is admirable but not very reassuring to me in this scary world. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Leaving isn't really on the table in the foreseeable future anyway, so it's just about establishing a strong bargaining position to possibly reverse/prevent some of the stupidest poo poo and extend the middle finger to Stoltenberg (though I doubt he could care less now that he got his payday). And even if we did manage to leave NATO somehow, we'd still have allies and options defense-wise. Biomute posted:Anyway, Moxnes has my vote. He's got principles, and is willing to fight for them on an arena that is not limited to the relative political safety of identity politics while capital runs off with all the cash and we continue the slide into a class-divided country. 
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Aug 6, 2017 12:13
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Randarkman posted:So what are the chances of Rødt actually getting into parliament this year? Seems people are always predicting it, but it never seems to happen. As far as I am concerned AP is in a similar position to Hillary and the Democrats. They poll reasonably well, but the parts of their base that actually care and don't just vote out of habit are not too happy about AP not really having much of a position on anything except that they should be in power. Their leader is not an actual left candidate, but a boringly "most competent candidate ever" who's rich as all hell and extremely mercantile with their politics. Additionally, they've recently been cozying up to the right by promising tax breaks and guarantees that they won't roll back the tax breaks given by the previous right-wing government. So, basically they're solidifying AP as a centre party, meaning the tranformation is pretty much complete and there's no longer much of a difference between them and høyre apart from a few token issues. I think that's going to bite them in the rear end, even with SPs support, as we've seen in other countries that the people are hungry for an actual leftist answer to the rise of the far right. It looks like Støre is hoping to do what Macron did, but his opposition is not as monstereus, and his base has other options.
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Aug 6, 2017 12:27
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Biomute posted:As far as I am concerned AP is in a similar position to Hillary and the Democrats. They poll reasonably well, but the parts of their base that actually care and don't just vote out of habit are not too happy about AP not really having much of a position on anything except that they should be in power. Their leader is not an actual left candidate, but a boringly "most competent candidate ever" who's rich as all hell and extremely mercantile with their politics. Additionally, they've recently been cozying up to the right by promising tax breaks and guarantees that they won't roll back the tax breaks given by the previous right-wing government. So, basically they're solidifying AP as a centre party, meaning the tranformation is pretty much complete and there's no longer much of a difference between them and høyre apart from a few token issues. I think that's going to bite them in the rear end, even with SPs support, as we've seen in other countries that the people are hungry for an actual leftist answer to the rise of the far right. It looks like Støre is hoping to do what Macron did, but his opposition is not as monstereus, and his base has other options. Good analysis. I don't think you're wrong, and on the balance while I don't want Erna and the Capitalist Fellation Squad to have an ounce of power ever again, I can't bring myself to vote Støre and Høyre Light when I can vote with my conscience. Bjørnie is getting my vote again. Sooner or later the message will get through.
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Aug 6, 2017 14:55
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Speaking of analysis, anyone want to do a new write-up on Norwegian parties as well as the upcoming election to replace my old one in the op?
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Aug 7, 2017 17:50
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Looks like i will be voting Venstre for purely tactical reasons this year. Feels bad, but sometimes you have to stuff that camel meat down your eathole.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:24
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Baudolino posted:Looks like i will be voting Venstre for purely tactical reasons this year. Feels bad, but sometimes you have to stuff that camel meat down your eathole. Stealth vote for FrP.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:59
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Venstre is poo poo. They subsist on crumbs H throws them from their table.
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Aug 9, 2017 08:39
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Randarkman posted:Venstre is poo poo. They subsist on crumbs H throws them from their table. I question why it even exists as a party anymore.
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Aug 9, 2017 10:37
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Baudolino posted:Looks like i will be voting Venstre for purely tactical reasons this year. Feels bad, but sometimes you have to stuff that camel meat down your eathole. After their continuing support for the present government I genuinely don't see how this is a reasonable option, unless one desires frp cabinet members
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Aug 9, 2017 11:51
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jensen has, supported by V, de facto made herself an intrinsic part of any bourgeois government. V needs to bite the bullet and accept a minority ap government to teach them that you can't keep using ultimatums and get what you want One of the worst parts of this government has been frp ministers doing their best to erode the relatively healthy Norwegian political discourse and culture and it's been really frustrating
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Aug 9, 2017 11:57
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V. Illych L. posted:jensen has, supported by V, de facto made herself an intrinsic part of any bourgeois government. V needs to bite the bullet and accept a minority ap government to teach them that you can't keep using ultimatums and get what you want Bjørnie will stop them <3
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Aug 9, 2017 12:02
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Nice piece of fish posted:I question why it even exists as a party anymore. Says the man who votes Rødt..
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Aug 9, 2017 12:36
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Nice piece of fish posted:Bjørnie will stop them <3 This dude? 
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Aug 9, 2017 12:43
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Alhazred posted:Says the man who votes Rødt.. Ah, but the revolutionary spirit will never die. Vastly superior to the centrist-right gray mélange of inescapable mediocrity.
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Aug 9, 2017 12:52
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Is wearing a Bjørnie 2017 shirt to work acceptable?
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Aug 9, 2017 12:57
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Biomute posted:Is wearing a Bjørnie 2017 shirt to work acceptable? After september it will be mandatory, Comrade.
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Aug 9, 2017 13:00
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V. Illych L. posted:After their continuing support for the present government I genuinely don't see how this is a reasonable option, unless one desires frp cabinet members Oops! Did my extreme enthusiasm give the game away? I
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Aug 9, 2017 19:10
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Nice piece of fish posted:I question why it even exists as a party anymore. I think my high school history teacher summed Venstre up pretty well. It was basically that Venstre is plagued by the fact that they accomplished all of their original political goals 100 years ago.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:32
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They still haven`t delivered their promise of a hen for every man. Where is my mødderfoking hen Venstre?
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Aug 10, 2017 16:21
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The plan was made obsolete by Tinder.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:14
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Collateral Damage posted:The plan was made obsolete by Tinder. They burnt every man???
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Aug 10, 2017 21:22
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Something something governments get girlfriends
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Aug 10, 2017 21:23
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I only want the means of egg production to be redistributed you perverts. The means of reproduction can safely be handled by the free market, just cut away some red tape. Welfare for a man`s stomach, free enterprise for his stick.
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Aug 10, 2017 22:24
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