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One of these days I'm going to have more money than sense, buy a clapped out Garand, and do whatever it takes to get it rebarreled in .276 Pedersen.  I'm really, really hoping the case length and case head dimensions are close-ish enough that I don't have to worry about the loving mag edit: I also dream of CETMEs in 7.92 Kurz, as god intended
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Aug 6, 2017 01:11
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Guys, you have to realise that the bolsheviks had a pretty hosed up situation. They tried to do a bunch of experimentation, when things weren't so bad, but war communism, not living up to the ideals of the constitution, all that business was purely a result of every capitalist country invading as soon as they could wrap up their little world war diversion. I mean, look at the countries that invaded soviet russia, and the timeframe. The U.K, Canada, United States, Japan, France, on the allied side, as well as the Germans. The United States imprisoned huge amounts of japanese on the mainland, after Pearl Harbour, when there wasn't any real invasion risk. What happened to Soviet Russia, and the rise of hitler and his appeasement by the western powers, probably scared the poo poo out of Stalin, and though it doesn't justify the excesses, it makes them understandable, at least from his perspective. He tried multiple times to ally himself with the western powers, and they refused. The agreement they signed with Nazi Germany was purely to buy time, and make the best of a bad situation. Selling grain whilst some ukrainians starved does suck, but it wasn't because Stalin personally hated ukrainians, but because they needed the capital to modernize. I think it's easy to be critical of that, but remember that that country played the biggest role in defeating fascism, sacrificing millions of lives in a war of extermination. Intentions should count for something, especially if we're talking about survival situations. Another thing that really blew my mind about the sides of the 20th century, was that British supported Greeks shot a peaceful protest in Greece, organised by the communist party of greece, in 1944! The Nazi's weren't even defeated yet, and they had to fight against peaceful protesters cause they were communists? Not to mention how the Nazis were treated after the war by the allied governments.
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Aug 6, 2017 03:27
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Aug 6, 2017 03:38
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Ardent Communist posted:Selling grain whilst some ukrainians starved does suck, but it wasn't because Stalin personally hated ukrainians, but because they needed the capital to modernize. I think it's easy to be critical of that, but remember that that country played the biggest role in defeating fascism, sacrificing millions of lives in a war of extermination. "some Ukranians" You know, "some Ukranians," just a few million or so. What's millions of dead people between friends?
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Aug 6, 2017 04:28
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This isn't D&D dude.
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Aug 6, 2017 04:50
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Grenrow posted:"some Ukranians" In the grand scheme of Soviet-related body counts? Chump change.
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Aug 6, 2017 05:00
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Haha what are you talking about? You guys were just talking about Stalin and the mistakes he made, so it was totally an on-topic post. D&D's a cesspool, and it's not cause it's overly leftist. I didn't think a military history thread would be denying the accomplishments of the Soviet Union during WW2, and millions of Ukrainians dying is some, as opposed to all or none or a little. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, I'm honestly speaking for my side. If the best you can say is ad hominen attacks about my name or pedantry, doesn't that make me look better and you worse?
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Aug 6, 2017 05:02
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Was having an early modern warship just tip over like the Swedish and English flagships a common occurrence?
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Aug 6, 2017 05:10
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Ardent Communist posted:Haha what are you talking about? You guys were just talking about Stalin and the mistakes he made, so it was totally an on-topic post. D&D's a cesspool, and it's not cause it's overly leftist. I didn't think a military history thread would be denying the accomplishments of the Soviet Union during WW2, and millions of Ukrainians dying is some, as opposed to all or none or a little. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, I'm honestly speaking for my side. Why the gently caress is a political ideology your side rather than something you're willing to fairly evaluate the failings of so as to try and avoid them?
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Aug 6, 2017 05:18
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Ardent Communist posted:I'm honestly speaking for my side I think you're the only person here who is taking a political side. Surely you can see that describing the situation as " Selling grain whilst some ukrainians starved" is callous as all hell regardless of what your political leanings are? Like 8 million Ukrainians died. This is literally like describing the holocaust as "some Jews were forced to stay in camps".
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Aug 6, 2017 05:27
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Ardent Communist posted:I'm honestly speaking for my side. *Patton Oswaltishly* I don't think you know what this thread is for...?
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Aug 6, 2017 05:37
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If you think about it, that's another example of how Ukraine is the Ireland to Russia's United Kingdom.
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Aug 6, 2017 05:38
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ZearothK posted:If you think about it, that's another example of how Ukraine is the Ireland to Russia's United Kingdom. - Silly accent - Loves potatoes - Aren't very good at tanks It adds up.
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Aug 6, 2017 05:45
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Ardent Communist posted:Haha what are you talking about? You guys were just talking about Stalin and the mistakes he made, so it was totally an on-topic post. D&D's a cesspool, and it's not cause it's overly leftist. I didn't think a military history thread would be denying the accomplishments of the Soviet Union during WW2, and millions of Ukrainians dying is some, as opposed to all or none or a little. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, I'm honestly speaking for my side. Shut up, tankie.
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Aug 6, 2017 06:13
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Because you can definitely still do that. Self-criticism is a pretty good Marxist idea. We could talk about how it benefited the Vietnamese against the much stronger materially American forces and their vietnamese puppets. You don't have any side? You just....what? Let the horrible things that happen just keep happening with no attempt to stop it, no basis to fight against the exhaustion of all of the earth's resources? Just go from one issue to the next? This is actually D&D stuff, so I don't need to continue it, but I'm kind of pissed off that people can not see that there is a war going on, and being neutral just benefits the current ruling class. The Vietnamese communists would practice self-criticism as a way to promote good practice against the Americans, for example putting machine guns at treetop level to make it easier to shoot down helicopters, and responding to the typical american tactics of hunkering down and calling in massive artillery strikes when ambushed, by either closing the distance rapidly so that the grunts would be afraid to call in artillery for risk of hurting themselves, or by launching a light attack and then running immediately, so that all of the incoming rounds would hit empty jungle.
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Aug 6, 2017 06:37
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I believe in the military they call that "Tactics" although I may be wrong.
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Aug 6, 2017 06:54
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OctaMurk posted:I think you're the only person here who is taking a political side. Surely you can see that describing the situation as " Selling grain whilst some ukrainians starved" is callous as all hell regardless of what your political leanings are? Like 8 million Ukrainians died. This is literally like describing the holocaust as "some Jews were forced to stay in camps". I really, really thought this thread had enough intellectual people to at least argue the topics, rather than just recycling facts in a vacuum. After all, it's definitely a guy who has had absolutely no effect on military thinking who said "We see, therefore, that War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means."
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Aug 6, 2017 07:00
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The Nazis holocaust was bad because it didn't benefit the state. -Ardent Communist Jesus loving Christ
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Aug 6, 2017 07:06
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Might think that someone named "Ardent Communist" could be doing a gimmick. I hope.
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Aug 6, 2017 07:10
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Tias posted:Couldn't agree more. I mean, blame Stalin for being Stalin, he did some extremely messed up things, but most of what we consider 'stalinist' approaches( war communism, gulags, repression, militarization of trade unions and murder of dissenters) were all initiated by Lenin( and Trotsky). leftishly: how dare you insult Leon-kun e: please don't involve me in the current fight I was just trying to be funny Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 07:18
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Jobbo_Fett posted:The Nazis holocaust was bad because it didn't benefit the state. -Ardent Communist I didn't say it was bad because it didn't benefit the state, I said it benefited no one. It certainly didn't benefit the jewish people, it didn't benefit the nazis (aside from the small amount of personal wealth that was confiscated) and bringing this back on-topic, the trains, the guards, the resources that went into building and running the camps could have been used to better fight the war of extermination that the loving nazis started! You say I'm bloodthirsty while supporting an economic system that has destroyed millions of lives, sees thousands starving everyday while we grow enough food to feed everyone, sees worker protections fall by the wayside, resulting in injuries and death, and the world's resources being used up to increase quarterly profits! You're probably couldn't even see the parallels between the professionalisation of feudal armies from levies to mercenaries and the current day, as less people are motivated by non-material things to fight for their rulers' interests. Or even the similarities between knights and the social system they supported and million dollar aircrafts and the social system they support. I don't see much need to continue posting here, since it's becoming obvious that you'd rather talk about warfare completely detached from the day to day politics that influence how wars are fought and by what. I've made enough of my point. Ardent Communist fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 07:28
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Ardent Communist posted:Guys, you have to realise that the bolsheviks had a pretty hosed up situation. They tried to do a bunch of experimentation, when things weren't so bad, but war communism, not living up to the ideals of the constitution, all that business was purely a result of every capitalist country invading as soon as they could wrap up their little world war diversion. I mean, look at the countries that invaded soviet russia, and the timeframe. The U.K, Canada, United States, Japan, France, on the allied side, as well as the Germans. My favourite tankie canard is that the half-hearted occupation of a few ports and cities around the fringes of Russia for a year or so and an equally half-hearted Japanese smash and grab in the Far East represented an existential threat to Soviet power that justified decades of repression.
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Aug 6, 2017 07:33
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Ardent Communist posted:Capitalism is good because millions have to die to benefit a small ruling minority. - You, apparently. He said unironically in contrast to a dictator who sacrificed millions of Ukrainians for his own gain.
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Aug 6, 2017 07:37
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Ardent Communist posted:You don't have any side? You just....what? Let the horrible things that happen just keep happening with no attempt to stop it, no basis to fight against the exhaustion of all of the earth's resources? Just go from one issue to the next? Sometimes, people like to talk about a thing in history that they find interesting, to other people who find history interesting, without having to endlessly hand-wring over the politics of the thing.
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Aug 6, 2017 07:40
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:My favourite tankie canard is that the half-hearted occupation of a few ports and cities around the fringes of Russia for a year or so and an equally half-hearted Japanese smash and grab in the Far East represented an existential threat to Soviet power that justified decades of repression. Jobbo_Fett posted:He said unironically in contrast to a dictator who sacrificed millions of Ukrainians for his own gain.
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Aug 6, 2017 07:53
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"for his own gain" != "money" Like, maybe not read too much into forum posts  Glad you agree with the dictator part though.
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Aug 6, 2017 08:03
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Jobbo_Fett posted:"for his own gain" != "money"
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Aug 6, 2017 08:08
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Where's keldoclock when you need him?
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Aug 6, 2017 08:17
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Can we just not do this in here.
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Aug 6, 2017 08:30
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Killing millions of Ukrainians, who sought their own independence, along with deportations and more in an attempt to keep yourself in power seems like a pretty good gain to me, personal or otherwise. And he was a dictator, plain and simple. Now, 
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Aug 6, 2017 08:32
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Gentlemen. You can't fight in here. This is the Military History thread!
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Aug 6, 2017 09:08
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Exactly, fights go in the current events thread.
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Aug 6, 2017 09:11
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Only those who have disassenbled and reassembled a Carcano rifle bolt should be allowed to post here. loving hate that bolt...
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Aug 6, 2017 09:13
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Baron Porkface posted:Was having an early modern warship just tip over like the Swedish and English flagships a common occurrence? Rahn Phillips goes into how ships were built in Six Galleons For The King Of Spain, which Cythreal and Vincent Van Goatse should really take a look at, if you guys are at all interested in the early modern colleagues of the people you're interested in right now. https://www.amazon.com/Six-Galleons-King-Spain-Seventeenth/dp/0801845130 HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 09:55
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Ardent Communist posted:Yeah man, they definitely didn't give any material or moral support to the White army, who threatened to take Moscow and St. Petersberg, which were almost starving. They didn't set up puppet governments in the lands that the germans managed to secure with the treaty of brest-litovsk, which the Soviets definitely signed because they were in a great situation that had no chance of losing. It was all hunky-dory for the Soviet government, who just became big meanies for personal gain. The deaths of millions are okay as long as they are not for personal gain.
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Aug 6, 2017 10:44
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:The deaths of millions are okay as long as they are not for personal gain. NB. 'personal gain' does not include consolidating absolute authoritarian power over a hundred million people.
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Aug 6, 2017 10:58
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Ardent Communist posted:Guys, you have to realise that the bolsheviks had a pretty hosed up situation. They tried to do a bunch of experimentation, when things weren't so bad, but war communism, not living up to the ideals of the constitution, all that business was purely a result of every capitalist country invading as soon as they could wrap up their little world war diversion. I mean, look at the countries that invaded soviet russia, and the timeframe. The U.K, Canada, United States, Japan, France, on the allied side, as well as the Germans. On the off, off change you're not trolling: Trotsky and Lenin militarized the trade unions, and let military campaigns against democratic socialists in the USSR, culminating in massacres - for no other reason than destroying any kind of democratic power outside their dictatorship. If you don't have to massacre somebody for any reason besides padding your own cult and destroying democracy, you are the loving bad guy in the picture. Whataboutism doesn't make a lot of sense, and even if it did you can't compare US enemy alien internment( that, while horribly racist, made military sense at the time) to throwing a good worker in a frozen work camp to most likely be murdered before his 5 years are up, for looking the wrong way at a police commissar. The UK behaved towards Greece in the way state imperialists are expected to, you ought to hold an internationalist soviet government to higher standards. Tias fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 11:09
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Ok so if the 30YW became an anime, how fitting would the clothing style of that time be in said animé and would wallenstein or pappenheim be the main protagonist with purple hair? And where doea Gustavus Adolphus fit into all of this?
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Aug 6, 2017 11:13
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Wallenstein did nothing wrong.
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Aug 6, 2017 11:24
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At least, nothing I'd say out loud, lest his terrifying wizard rear end show up in a time portal and murderize me.
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Aug 6, 2017 11:25
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