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jng2058 posted:So here's a question. If you're playing a successor Marine chapter, you definitely get the Chapter Tactics of your progenitor chapter, but does that also apply to the Chapter Warlord Traits and Strategems as well? Are you talking about home made chapter? If so who cares and if someone argues just say you accidentally painted your salamanders red or something. If it's an official one like crimson fists then you can definitely use stratagems (page 385) but the rules doesn't mention relics or chapter warlord traits as applicable to successors. I wouldn't really care though as long as you're not cross picking, like a warlord trait from ultras and the iron hands axe. Basically I just treat successors as a different paint scheme and if people argue there aren't really any rules for colours. Hell I'll even just rename the names of progenitor characters if I want to use a named one, because in the end that's what a successor is, another colour and some fluff so who cares really.
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Aug 6, 2017 16:54
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Yeah agreed, the only restriction I'd argue for is that the tactics/stratagems/traits are a block, you can't mix and match. Other than that do as you will with whatever colour Marines you have.
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Aug 6, 2017 16:57
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I've got a game later today against Orks and the guy told me what he's bringing. Maybe it's just me but I don't think that I would bring a Blitza-Bommer to a 50 PL game on a 4x4 table. Sure it's got a lot of wounds and the boom bomb is nasty but unless I'm reading this wrong you only get one bomb for the entire game and the rest of the time it seems like a pretty mediocre anti-infantry platform for what it costs.
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Aug 6, 2017 17:10
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Garmann posted:Are you talking about home made chapter? If so who cares and if someone argues just say you accidentally painted your salamanders red or something. If it's an official one like crimson fists then you can definitely use stratagems (page 385) but the rules doesn't mention relics or chapter warlord traits as applicable to successors. I wouldn't really care though as long as you're not cross picking, like a warlord trait from ultras and the iron hands axe. Corrode posted:Yeah agreed, the only restriction I'd argue for is that the tactics/stratagems/traits are a block, you can't mix and match. Other than that do as you will with whatever colour Marines you have. If you're an Ultramarine successor (White Consuls, say) you play it Ultramarine all the way, including Stratagems and Relics. No "Ultramarine Tactics, Raven Guard Strat, Fist Relic" bullshit, but likewise you do get access to the whole package, Tactic-Strat-Relic. Cool, that's how I've been playing it. Thanks.
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Aug 6, 2017 17:25
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Zuul the Cat posted:Yep. It's a weapons array, so you get to fire all of it. Best part is that the Dunecrawlers have the Crawler special rule, letting them move and fire everything with no negative modifiers. Even in the power level case I'd rather have Cawl and 2 dudecrawlers than a knight any day of the week. Cawl gives your army a 50/50 chance of having +1 armor each turn against most shooting, and 2 dudecrawlers with Cawl support can take down a knight in two turns. Dudecrawlers aren't exactly glasscannons since they have an invul save (with rerolls of one if a second one is around) and the mechanicum can repair everything once it starts taking wounds. EDIT: Wait, is there no restriction on shooting and charging anymore? Only Advance/Fall Back prevents charging? Hot dog. LordAba fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 18:05
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LordAba posted:Even in the power level case I'd rather have Cawl and 2 dudecrawlers than a knight any day of the week. Cawl gives your army a 50/50 chance of having +1 armor each turn against most shooting, and 2 dudecrawlers with Cawl support can take down a knight in two turns. Yeah, the only restriction is that you won't likely get a chance to shoot next turn unless your opponent falls back or dies. Unless you're a big, sturdy flying unit like a Repulsor, of course.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:30
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/06/legion-focus-alpha-legion-aug6gw-homepage-post-2/ That Warlord Trait is still great.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:59
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The Sex Cannon posted:Counterpoint: the Repulsor has been built by Belisarius Cawl. Admech vehicles are festooned with stubbers. He's just using what he's used to. Yes but my immersion dammit! Everything would be fine if I could fit Primaris into Land Raiders. At least then they could ride around as the Emperor intended, in giant metal boxes firmly attached to the ground.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:01
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How many people actually paint the belt on Primaris Marines, as opposed to how many people think it's dumb?
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Aug 6, 2017 19:04
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MonsterEnvy posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/06/legion-focus-alpha-legion-aug6gw-homepage-post-2/ GW posted:Warptime is great either for fast-moving units like Raptors or for pulling some Tactical Marines out of trouble 
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Aug 6, 2017 19:07
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The Sex Cannon posted:Counterpoint: the Repulsor has been built by Belisarius Cawl. Admech vehicles are festooned with stubbers. He's just using what he's used to. This actually makes sense.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:24
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Alpha Legion, makes perfect sense.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:25
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So Codex: Chaos Space Marines loving owns and I'm very happy with the treatment Chaos has gotten in 8th edition. We had to wait literally what, 2 months to get Legion traits back? Only downside is waiting a bit longer for Death Guard/Thousand Sons but I'm excited to see the DG codex. Also I love the changes to Oblits and Possessed. I'm actually going to start assembling my Gal Vorbak to do some Word Bearers possessed now
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Aug 6, 2017 19:28
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No mention of infiltration ... ???
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Aug 6, 2017 19:30
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I'm a little sad that Alpha Legion is just a copy-pasted Raven Guard, but their Warlord Trait is so much more fun and the Raven Guard already had a near-perfect setup. It's better than the Iron Warriors being a lamer Fists, when the Fists already have a situational Tactic in a group of amazing all-arounders. "Take advantage of the versatility of Chaos Space Marines by deploying far away from combat armies or close to shooting armies with Forward Operatives." makes me think Alpha Legion is getting Infiltration, even if not outright mentioned yet. Heck, looking it up it's literally the same name as the Raven Guard stratagem. So now we have traits for 8 Loyalist and 7 Heretic chapters. Biggest winners and losers now that the dust has settled there? The Bee fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 19:31
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goose willis posted:No mention of infiltration ... ??? They did mention it. They just did not post the stratagem.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:38
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goose willis posted:No mention of infiltration ... ??? They get the 1CP Infiltration strategem, plus the Chaos-wide one for Cultists The Bee posted:I'm a little sad that Alpha Legion is just a copy-pasted Raven Guard, but their Warlord Trait is so much more fun and the Raven Guard already had a near-perfect setup. It's better than the Iron Warriors being a lamer Fists, when the Fists already have a situational Tactic in a group of amazing all-arounders. I'm not so sure the Iron Warriors got it as bad as you're suggesting. Yeah Bolter Drill is better than Iron Within (though it's not a bad ability), but you don't have to take the IW Warlord trait and their Artifact is really good and both much better and more exciting than what the Fists get (it's real good on a Daemon Prince). That said, I can't deny that they're the clear loser of the legions with regard to traits, because shooting at buildings is only situationally useful. The boost to Obliterators and Vindicators helps a lot, even though they aren't Iron Warriors-specific units, but they were bound to be hanging around IW armies built before 8th. As "blah" as Word Bearers looked with their core trait, their Strategem more than makes up for it and the Cursed Crozius artifact isn't a bad pickup either. My Preliminary Power Rankings for the Legions: God Tier - Alpha Legion - Emperor's Children - World Eaters Good Tier - Black Legion - Word Bearers OK Tier - Night Lords - Iron Warriors - Renegades (who only get a trait, from the look of it. Though it's a good one) Bad Tier - None TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 20:00
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Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children and World Eaters seem like the biggest winners of the lot, but I haven't seen what the Renegades rules are yet.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:01
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Death hex. Ha ha holy poo poo.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:01
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I'm...okay with Black Legion, as they stand. They're definitely middle of the pack for legions now, and they're going to basically need Abaddon to function well, but their tactic is surprisingly good, and their warlord trait and stratagem are pretty great.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:03
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TwingeCrag posted:Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children and World Eaters seem like the biggest winners of the lot, but I haven't seen what the Renegades rules are yet. I believe I remember seeing that they had advance+charge as their 'chapter tactic'
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Aug 6, 2017 20:03
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TwingeCrag posted:Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children and World Eaters seem like the biggest winners of the lot, but I haven't seen what the Renegades rules are yet. They get the ability to Advance and Charge (which is strong), but I don't think they get any strategems/warlord traits/artifacts. Though I might have just missed those.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:04
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APlayed in a doubles tourney yesterday, 900 points per player. I brought my Templars and I figured that with smaller armies they'd do okay, but I'm now at game 6 in a row of putting them back in their foam and doing pretty much gently caress all. I gotta paint up some transports and tanks for these guys because they're just getting massacred. My list was a captain, 15 strong crusader squad, assault squad, venerable Dreadnought, and 6 vanguard vetsnin a rhino. My teammate brought 72 Fire Warriors, the space pope, a Foreblade, an accelerator drone, some sniper drones and pathfinders. Basically it meant that he was getting upwards of 4 shots at longer range per dude with a bunch of rerolls. GAME 1 Vs Thousand Sons and Space Wolves TKSons near a sorcerer were getting rerollable 2+ saves against our shooting. Wolves would deep strike and assault and get evaporated by Tau overwatch, which even covered my guys because it's worded to work with "friendly" models, no keywords. They conceded turn 3 when the Wolves guy was tabled and I was finally punching TKSons with my Dreadnought. Wolves guy later pouted about "netlisty bullshit" GAME 2 Vs Primaris Imperial Fists and Primaris Iron Hands I charged across the table and got into assault, failing to do anything. My captain told my Dreadnought to shoot good and that did okay. Our opponents played smart and did a fighting retreat to get behind a building and hide from the wave of Tau shooting. At the end of the game we had them hemmed in and beaten up, my lovely sword brethren somehow had made it across the table, and while I only had 6 modes left, they only killed 8 Fire Warriors. It was a kill point game so we won handily, but it was a fun game with fun opponents. GAME 3 Vs Chaos and Necrons Necrom guy broughy a loving Pylon. It did 26 wounds to my Dreadnought and damaged my Rhino, and we just left it alone because it's pretty useless against infantry. The game had one objective drop in a random area on turn 3 (in a 4 turn game, as the event was running long and not well planned) and that area happened to be the middle, which meant we had to advance the Tau gunline and meager few Templars up on the middle. My captain killed a Chaos Lord in a duel and contested the objective, earning us a tie. Chaos guy was great and had some Rogue Trader models and cool conversions mixed in. Necron guy wasn't my favorite opponent. So yeah, we went two wins and one tie with my bad list and his Tau infantry spam and I met a few cool folks and saw some familiar faces. Not the best run event I've attended, but hopefully they'll get the hang before any future events. There were 32 people playing in this doubles tourney of a new edition so some hiccups were to be expected. Everybody seemed pretty cool though, and nobody raged or had to call over one of the store folks to judge something.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:04
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I was expecting army-wide free infiltration like Traitor Legions had but if the only compromise is strategem-based infiltration then fine Can you at least use it more than once, or can only one unit infiltrate now or something
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Aug 6, 2017 20:09
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Not sure if 72 Fire Warriors is "netlisty" tbh.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:10
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goose willis posted:I was expecting army-wide free infiltration like Traitor Legions had but if the only compromise is strategem-based infiltration then fine Can use it as many times as you have Command Points to spend.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:10
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goose willis posted:I was expecting army-wide free infiltration like Traitor Legions had but if the only compromise is strategem-based infiltration then fine It's the same as Raven Guard. So as many as you want to spend Command Points on. Gyro Zeppeli posted:I'm...okay with Black Legion, as they stand. They're definitely middle of the pack for legions now, and they're going to basically need Abaddon to function well, but their tactic is surprisingly good, and their warlord trait and stratagem are pretty great. Abaddon alone kind of makes them very powerful, just because of how strong he is. Even without him they are still solid. But he is just a massive upgrade to them.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:16
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SRM I may have gone to that event. I played a last round with some chaos since some teams left. I recall a pylon being brought an ppl being q little miffed.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:19
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I take it you cannot have a Greater Daemon in a CSM list?
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Aug 6, 2017 20:19
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goose willis posted:I was expecting army-wide free infiltration like Traitor Legions had but if the only compromise is strategem-based infiltration then fine They decrease the number of units you can infiltrate every time you ask about it.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:29
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I take it you cannot have a Greater Daemon in a CSM list? You can summon one. Though it's only really feasible for Word Bearers.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:41
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TheChirurgeon posted:They get the 1CP Infiltration strategem, plus the Chaos-wide one for Cultists That's true. Their artifact is pretty awesome, after all. I just already find the Fists' tactic questionably useful at best, so I'm not as jazzed to see it repeated as I am the amazing Raven Guard tactic. The way I see it all so far, in order of release . . . Emperor's Children: These guys are really the damned if you do, damned if you don't force. Their stratagem punishes you for not checking them in melee, and the Slaanesh trait makes sure if you do go into melee with more than one unit at a time you'll regret it. I doubt your opponent will charge a unit they can't put a substantial dent in anyway, but it also makes Emperor's Children amazing at charging enemy assault units and denying them much chance at payback. That's especially true when your Psyker is giving the whole already-sturdy unit a 5+ FNP save. These guys have a really obnoxious package that forces a lot of smart playing around them, and I love it. My main qualm is that we know almost nothing about these guys sans-codex; their Warlord Trait, artifact, and Legion Stratagem (as opposed to general Slaanesh stratagem) are all absent, and it's the shortest article. They're also one of the only two Legions that isn't trying to make you buy Chaos Terminators in their preview, so that's appreciated. Iron Warriors: Trait is situational at best. I think it could make an impact if the table is structured well, especially City of Death games, but you've already seen my musing on it when I looked at the Fists. Their warlord trait is okay, but I don't feel like it synergizes well with the rest of the army. The Iron Warriors are all about being sturdy and slow to take casualties, so I feel like auto-passing morale really isn't of much help to them. I don't see their stratagem in the preview, but I'll take Chiurgeon's word on it if it's somehow even worse than the already-anemic Bolter Drill. These guys feel like an amazing artifact stapled onto an okay at best Legion, although I'd need to know the stratagem for sure to know. Night Lords: These guys gave the full preview package, so I feel like I can judge them best. Terror Tactics would be garbage if it didn't stack, but between the -3 penalty it can achieve on its own and the further addition of other morale effects it reintroduces an element to the game that a lot of armies seem to kinda circumvent. Unless you're flailing your claws at a synapse-fed nid squad or a full to the gills Ork mob, you're likely going to cause some substantial breaks once bodies hit the floor. The Claws of the Black Hunt seem like they're just marginally better lightning claws, so we don't get any cool utility, but basically being the force weapon equivalent of a lightning claw's power weapon is nice. A free reroll for the warlord comes in handy, even if it isn't as amazingly flexible as the Salamander's trait. Their stratagem is neat for trolling plas and footslogging up to vulnerable troops, but the Alpha Legion trait kinda eats its lunch. All of the parts here synergize really well, but I can see why none of them seem exciting on their own. World Eaters: Another article that tells all. These guys have one job and they do it really, terrifyingly well. 20 Berserkers with chainswords go from 60 WS 3+ hits to 80 total. Then you laugh as you use the Khorne stratagem to fight again for another 60 swings. Charge an entire blockade of units and watch as they all melt underneath a literal tide of swings. Everything else here, including the World Eater stratagem and artifact to neutralize psykers that could stem your rampage, is just gravy. The warlord trait seems a bit unwieldy by comparison, but done right your warlord could bounce from fight to fight with characters and monsters to get really fed. A Demon Prince is already S7 with 5 swings (8 if you go double talon). One kill and you're wounding Marine-equivalent infantry on a 2+ while making enough swings to disembowel entire units. Or go with Kharn, who you can force-feed 3 fight phases of pure carnage with the aforementioned stratagem. These guys are clear winners. Black Legion: The anti-Ultramarines, except whereas Ultramarines were insanely powerful these guys are pretty cool I guess. Being able to turn rapid fire weapons into assault weapons helps with footslogging, and even one bolter shot is better than zero. My main qualm with these guys is that their kit is strangely situational. Don't have a lot of rapid fire weaponry? Their tactic becomes a shittier version of the Ultramarines' ultra-flexible one. Don't like Chaos Space Marines? That's the difference between your stratagem being Captain effectiveness or Chapter Master effectiveness. Not fighting the Imperium? Too bad, we're doubling down on Death to the False Emperor. Abaddon's presence here massively improves them, but that's less because of his entourage and more because he's Abaddon. They aren't bad, but probably the most boring unit to me. Even if they're better off than, say, the Iron Warriors. Word Bearers: The sad thing about the Word Bearers is that they're going to need to buy an Index or wait for the Demons codex to get access to all of their best toys. The great thing about Word Bearers is that they get a crapton of those toys. I don't mind their morale boost not being the best when their chapter tactic isn't going to apply to the legions of demons they'll be pulling out of the ether each movement phase anyway. Unfortunately that also hampers their warlord trait, because it doesn't matter how loud your Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion speaks when only <Legion> units listen. If there was a way to count Chaos Demons as Legion units, they'd have amazing synergy by bringing out the right demon for the job every time and then buffing it up with a distant warlord. As is , the main use of the warlord trait seems to be effectively shepherding multiple units of actual marines at once, giving extra bubble wrap room and freeing up your movement phases to get summoning. It's an interesting setup, and probably the one with the most "but"s between theory and practice, but I like the unorthodox build for an unorthodox legion. Alpha Legion: Literally Raven Guard, literally amazing. We all read the article like an hour ago so no need to break down every single point into a fine powder. What do you guys think? Anything I'm missing / off about?
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Aug 6, 2017 20:50
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All I want to know is if regular, ol' chaos marines can take bolter, bolt pistol, and chainsword again. Or even just bolter and chainsword, the pistol doesn't matter. No one seems to care enough to check yet. I'm not counting on it, but all my mans are built like this. 
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Aug 6, 2017 20:56
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I don't get how World Eaters aren't going to get their own codex when there's so much Khorne-specific stuff out there and Khorne Daemonkin were a thing last edition
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Aug 6, 2017 20:57
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I feel like I shouldn't, but I can't help but like the welding mask helmets on the new Inceptors. It's like Cawl stumbled over a old cache of Maska-1 helmets and thought "why not?"
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Aug 6, 2017 20:59
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goose willis posted:I don't get how World Eaters aren't going to get their own codex when there's so much Khorne-specific stuff out there and Khorne Daemonkin were a thing last edition All four Cult legions should, but probably only after a Death Guard style model expansion. There's enough demon of Khorne stuff that they'll probably be easier to tie together than Emperor's Children will be, but they probably want to tie more of it in a legion-shaped bow and release some new model updates for the range. Also, the new helmets fill out the extra headspace way better than the old ones, and I kinda feel like they should have been Gravis (or Inceptor at the very least) standard. It'd help the armor feel more distinct and Terminator-like, rather than Mk 10 armor with a baby bump.
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Aug 6, 2017 21:04
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SRM posted:APlayed in a doubles tourney yesterday, 900 points per player. I brought my Templars and I figured that with smaller armies they'd do okay, but I'm now at game 6 in a row of putting them back in their foam and doing pretty much gently caress all. I gotta paint up some transports and tanks for these guys because they're just getting massacred. My list was a captain, 15 strong crusader squad, assault squad, venerable Dreadnought, and 6 vanguard vetsnin a rhino. My teammate brought 72 Fire Warriors, the space pope, a Foreblade, an accelerator drone, some sniper drones and pathfinders. Basically it meant that he was getting upwards of 4 shots at longer range per dude with a bunch of rerolls. How were the TSons getting re-rollable 2+ saves? The exalted sorcerer aura only works on invuln saves, and I don't think that gets any higher than 4+ (base of 5+, and +1 for All Is Dust against 1D weapons).
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Aug 6, 2017 21:04
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TwingeCrag posted:Not sure if 72 Fire Warriors is "netlisty" tbh. My buddy came up with the list on his own when reading through the Tau index and was excited to see all his Fire Warriors would be useful, the Wolves guy was just really salty. OMG sriracha pudding! posted:How were the TSons getting re-rollable 2+ saves? The exalted sorcerer aura only works on invuln saves, and I don't think that gets any higher than 4+ (base of 5+, and +1 for All Is Dust against 1D weapons). Guess that's what happens when you play with people who are new to the game! He said All is Dust is all 1D weapons give him +1 to his save and the sorcerer allowed rerollable saves so we just went with it. For_Great_Justice posted:SRM I may have gone to that event. I played a last round with some chaos since some teams left. Was it yesterday in Quincy, MA? What army did you bring? Sykic posted:I feel like I shouldn't, but I can't help but like the welding mask helmets on the new Inceptors. It's like Cawl stumbled over a old cache of Maska-1 helmets and thought "why not?" I wanna put those on the double flamer guys to make Firebats.
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Aug 6, 2017 21:11
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So I'm looking at the Dark Eldar range online and why is half the plastic kits webstore exclusive? That's kinda stupid? Were they selling that badly?
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Aug 6, 2017 21:20
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The Bee posted:
I see more as shepherding Cultists. Who benefit most form the buffs Dark Apostles give. Like I can imagine a Word Bearers army that is just several Dark Apostles surrounded by Cultists. )With them being most spread out around the Warlord of them as his aura is bigger. The Cultist Meat Shields protect the Apostles who spend most of their time summoning more and more Daemons.
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Aug 6, 2017 21:27
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