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Somfin posted:Surely, then, there will come a time when the punching will cease, due to 100% of the nazis being punched. quote:E: Anyway, we're fine with immoral acts which facilitate other, more moral acts, at least at a societal level. I wouldn't want the Confederacy to have won. That doesn't mean I think killing is okay, I just agree with the justification in that case.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:30
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OwlFancier posted:Major government investment in propaganda to spread support for integration, reform of land use to make people live together with different ethnicities, wealth redistribution to decapitate the wealthiest and invest the revenue in everybody else, encourage immigration combined with spending money to ensure new immigrants are integrated into the system both by supporting them against reactionary elements and supporting everybody else with information pressure to acclimate them to the idea. I've been 100% in support of all this stuff for years. Shockingly, when I suggest large amounts of immigration and forced race mixing, the leftists (or at least the white faux leftists we have floating around here) are in general the first to suggest that this is just some (((elitist))) plot and globalization is the enemy of all those manly-man workers who'd otherwise be toiling in some field or coal mine.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:35
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The big difference between now and 20 years ago is absolutely that they were afraid and lived on the margins whereas now they can support and reinforce each other in a visible way. Silencing and hurting them absolutely drives them back to the margins. They can never really be eliminated, but when they're able to make friends and find community they get bolder and prouder and think it's ok for them to be that way. My father was a loving racist until the day he died but he was too scared to ever act on it or be anything other than polite to any black person he encountered at work or on the street. He only felt safe to express himself when he was at home because he believed there would be no consequences there. If he were alive and computer literate right now I have no doubt that he'd be getting bolder. How bold? I have no idea, but after he died we discovered that he had a bunch of guns stashed in his basement. He was just a collector, but if his ugly ideas had received any reinforcement I don't know how far it would have gone.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:36
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I mean, just marginalizing people and putting them in poverty hasn't ever had negative effects that I can think of, historically?
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Aug 6, 2017 18:39
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, just marginalizing people and putting them in poverty hasn't ever had negative effects that I can think of, historically? As long as you continually make sure they are repressed enough to not threaten the rest of the state, it seems like a win-win. Again, this isn't some racial group, it's individuals with odious opinions who are trying to gently caress over minorities. There has to be some price paid for fighting for the wrong side.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:46
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rkajdi posted:As long as you continually make sure they are repressed enough to not threaten the rest of the state, it seems like a win-win. Again, this isn't some racial group, it's individuals with odious opinions who are trying to gently caress over minorities. There has to be some price paid for fighting for the wrong side. My point is historically that hasn't worked out very well basically ever. It is important to offer an alternative so that it does not become a threatening group, otherwise what you are running is a tinpot dictatorship trying to crush all dissent and my first question to you as far as that goes is how long does it produce a stable society for? You can't simply beat people into not having a political position, if their circumstances lead them into radicalism then they're going to keep trending towards it and more will be created until you address the cause. Suppression is an element of dealing with dangerous political ideologies but it needs to come with a counterbalance.
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Aug 6, 2017 18:52
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, just marginalizing people and putting them in poverty hasn't ever had negative effects that I can think of, historically? And hey, if we drive bigot conservatives into poverty, they'll achieve class consciousness right? 4th dimensional Marxist revolutionary chess! Seize the means of seizing the means of production!
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Aug 6, 2017 18:52
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Where did intentionally driving people into poverty come into this discussion? We're talking about preventing nazis from monetizing youtube.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:10
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Rumda posted:Fortunately you're not a arbiter of moral truths, you're just a guy who is defending white supremacists. I'm a fairly liberal guy so I think if the role of arbiter of moral truths had any actual power (without requiring coercion) life wouldn't be so bad... for example I think any form of racial supremacy is immoral and thus by my magical powers there would be none. (And we'd also finally be able to destroy that Infinite Nazi Generator hidden in Richard Spenser's basement once and for all.) I'm sorry that it bothers you that I don't think its ok to just go around punching people who say things that offend you but I'm also defending your right to spout moronic poo poo as well. And if someone punches you for saying that then I fully support your right to punch them back.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:13
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nazis should be fought in the streets
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Aug 6, 2017 19:14
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Sneakster posted:Depends on how good of a punch it is. I think you'll need to perform a grand dragon punch.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:15
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 this is what Nazis want. they should absolutely be punched.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:18
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business hammocks posted:Where did intentionally driving people into poverty come into this discussion? We're talking about preventing nazis from monetizing youtube. I mean: rkajdi posted:And again, depriving them of money. We live in a society that requires you to work to live, and if you're doing 2-3 part time scrub jobs to keep your head above water, you have much less time to put together your great rant about how SJW masculine women are ruining your video games with their cooties. Kind of sounds like advocating poverty as a tool of societal control?
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Aug 6, 2017 19:19
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OwlFancier posted:Kind of sounds like advocating poverty as a tool of societal control? Liberal authoritarianism is never pretty.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:22
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rkajdi posted:Alright, what you're suggestion for suppressing ethno-nationalism and destroying the ethno-state idea then? The US is the closest, and we're still around a hundred thousand votes away due to the electoral college making decent urban areas less important. Well to quote some of those pesky ~Cultural Marxists~ :"Those who do not want to talk critically about capitalism should also keep quiet about Fascism".
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Aug 6, 2017 19:35
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rkajdi posted:And again, depriving them of money. We live in a society that requires you to work to live, and if you're doing 2-3 part time scrub jobs to keep your head above water, you have much less time to put together your great rant about how SJW masculine women are ruining your video games with their cooties. Hopefully getting them less exposure and money will help, but if I've learned anything from the Internet its that when one service is denied another will be created (BUT PROBABLY NOT INFINITE)
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Aug 6, 2017 19:49
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business hammocks posted:Where did intentionally driving people into poverty come into this discussion? We're talking about preventing nazis from monetizing youtube. You can't drive them into poverty anyway. Assuming one has no family or active social life you can work a full time job and still have time to post hateful poo poo on the internet.
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Aug 6, 2017 19:59
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business hammocks posted:Where did intentionally driving people into poverty come into this discussion? We're talking about preventing nazis from monetizing youtube. What do you think cutting off their YouTube revenue is going to do? It's not like Sargon has much job training with his sub high school education. It's going to push him back down into the working class where hopefully he's ground up and spit out an old broken man. Sorry, hugging out the Nazis only works for the kind of hugging where you stop being able to breath and can't break free. Again, there has to be a price paid for being on the wrong side. Our pathetically poor attempts at reconstruction in the US show that being the bigger man just gets you stabbed in the back.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:07
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Arguing for the need to protect minorities and also that poverty is good and also that punitive justice is good seems like a somewhat inconsistent position. I mean I suppose it's not necessarily inconsistent but it doesn't really tack with any established position that I know of. Though I wonder if you would describe yourself as a classical liberal? They were big on the creation of a servile underclass to cater to the enlightened.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:09
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rkajdi posted:What do you think cutting off their YouTube revenue is going to do? It's not like Sargon has much job training with his sub high school education. It's going to push him back down into the working class where hopefully he's ground up and spit out an old broken man. Taking their wingnut welfare away doesn't deprive them of the ability to find regular wage work. That's nothing close to systemic marginalization, although I guess if your face is all over youtube calling for trans people to be put into concentration camps maybe fewer people will want to hire you.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:14
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Why not just kill the nazis?
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Aug 6, 2017 20:18
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Most Nazis are already in poverty. The ringleaders might be doing well for themselves
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Aug 6, 2017 20:21
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There's strong indications that far right support isn't a function of income. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/ Back in Nazi Germany, the professional middle class was quite well represented in the early party, especially when it came to doctors and lawyers who were overrepresented in the party. Doctors and lawyers are also absolutely petit bourgeoisie.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:29
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JFairfax posted:
christ. please tell me we shot all the guards when we liberated those places.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:29
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Most were mysteriously beaten to death in prison awaiting judgement
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Aug 6, 2017 20:31
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Dapper_Swindler posted:christ. please tell me we shot all the guards when we liberated those places. lol no the CIA (OSS) recruited lots of them
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Aug 6, 2017 20:35
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rkajdi posted:What do you think cutting off their YouTube revenue is going to do? It's not like Sargon has much job training with his sub high school education. It's going to push him back down into the working class where hopefully he's ground up and spit out an old broken man. Out of curiosity, how are we defining who is and isn't a Nazi outside of those who actually call themselves Nazi? Do you just have to be racist or does it also require other classic Nazi positions about white supremacy, totalitarianism, etc?
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Aug 6, 2017 20:35
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JFairfax posted:lol no the CIA (OSS) recruited lots of them The guards? I thought they only really bothered with people who might have useful intelligence?
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Aug 6, 2017 20:37
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fallenturtle posted:Out of curiosity, how are we defining who is and isn't a Nazi outside of those who actually call themselves Nazi? Do you just have to be racist or does it also require other classic Nazi positions about white supremacy, totalitarianism, etc? Much like the Supreme Court and pornography, I know it when I see it.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:37
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rkajdi posted:Sorry, hugging out the Nazis only works for the kind of hugging where you stop being able to breath and can't break free. The Elmyra Theory of Fighting Nazis.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:38
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OwlFancier posted:The guards? I thought they only really bothered with people who might have useful intelligence? you're right, I'm exaggerating. also let's not forget that america kept it's legalised racism for two decades after nazi germany was forced to stop theirs.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:40
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Also Nazi Germany got their inspiration for their racist laws from America lol
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Aug 6, 2017 20:42
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JFairfax posted:Also Nazi Germany got their inspiration for their racist laws from America lol Also the idea for gas chambers came from when America forced Mexican immigrants to Deluise themselves in gas chambers.
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Aug 6, 2017 20:44
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American racist thought leaders have gotten their ideas during trips to India or Japan It's a oroboros except it's also always pooping
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Aug 6, 2017 21:09
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:American racist thought leaders have gotten their ideas during trips to India or Japan So what you're saying is the British Empire is what's wrong with everything?
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Aug 6, 2017 21:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Lotta folks happy to substitute their unexamined intuitions about the social ramifications of state-sanctioned internal political violence for any actual source of legal or moral authority in this thread. We're headed down the same track as the last one. I think the people who think punching Nazis will effectively stop them don't have a very strong argument, but I also find both the slippery slope of "but this will make the Nazis escalate!" and the argument it's morally wrong to be very weak. The idea that punching Nazis is somehow the first step towards something terrible happening seems to just as based off of unexamined intuitions than the idea it'll effectively stop them. edit: It's also important to distinguish between punching Nazis and changing the laws to make punching Nazis legal. The latter I can understand being a problem, but private citizens deciding to do this thing doesn't seem to be much of a problem as long as we leave "don't punch people" laws on the books and don't start changing them to apply selectively to different groups. (And you could also argue that "fighting words" exceptions could be written to exist for certain situations like this, though that presumably wouldn't really apply to something like antifa planning a Nazi-punching attack.) Fados posted:It's both funny and sad how some posters here really believe that some tech giants banning these assholes from Tweeter or Youtube is gonna make any difference in the medium or long term, because the fact is that this trend (ethnic nationalists) is getting more and more common everywhere (just look at Modi's India or China's Capitalism with "Chinese Characteristics"). This liberal hand-wringing over laws and free-speech or whatever is pretty much fun and games, and all the anti-sjws feed on this, which amounts to keeping people perpetually entertained in pretty much scholastic and fundamentally irrelevant bullshit. It's no coincidence that many of the non alt-right shitlords come together under the "classical liberal" banner. If your greater point here is "this stuff happens for broader and deeper reasons and can't be counteracting just through negative social push-back (if it ever had the chance of becoming a real danger, anyways)" I would probably agree, though this still doesn't necessarily make punching Nazis (or banning them from social media) bad, and it's plausible such things could at least slow their rate of growth. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 21:29
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I think whatever benefits it might give is counterbalanced by the pacifying pleasure liberals will get with the shadenfreud of the (probably hilarious) demise of the current quasi-nazies. This is what scares the most tbh, that this functions just like another boss fight in DBZ, and that you will get ridiculously more powerful enemies, even while the corpse of your current-past enemy is still lukewarm.
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Aug 6, 2017 21:56
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Ytlaya posted:...I also find both the slippery slope of "but this will make the Nazis escalate!" and the argument it's morally wrong to be very weak... I can understand the position that morality is a weak argument, but with the slippery slope, do you think its unlikely given enough Nazi's punched that they might try to retaliate?
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Aug 6, 2017 22:53
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Oh no the Nazis might get violent just like they were promising to do in the first place, we'll just have to risk it
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Aug 6, 2017 22:56
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Yeah I mean, left to their own devices they initiate violence fairly indiscriminately to enact their policies, why let them build up until they feel comfortable starting it?
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Aug 6, 2017 22:57
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