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Bicyclops posted:The irony is pretty exquisite here. The ending of that episode is where Moffat's dream-logic solutions basically completely fail in a way they never really have before or since. Amy bringing back the Doctor with a wedding rhyme and the Doctor and River saving the universe with "you may kiss the bride" both feel like they work whether or not they make much or any sense, but what's the ending of Name Of The Doctor? Clara's trapped in a place, the Doctor appears and says Come This Way To Safety, she walks a few steps and it's over. Like, she wasn't even hanging off a ledge or anything symbolic of being in danger, she just walked on a flat surface for about ten feet. There's no, I dunno, mechanics to it. Great atmosphere though. I'm kind of sad the Doctor's grave thing was dealt with two episodes later, that would have been a cool thing to have hanging over the character's head for a series.
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Aug 7, 2017 03:28
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I think the idea was that Clara was lost, with all the other versions of the Doctor dashing this way and that, with no clear single voice to indicate which was out until Eleven appeared to take her home.
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Aug 7, 2017 03:40
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"racism? in my doctor who?" "It's more likely than you think."
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Aug 7, 2017 04:35
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Echo Video posted:"racism? in my doctor who?" How is that racist?? In universe he-
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Aug 7, 2017 05:05
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Echo Video posted:"racism? in my doctor who?" im not sure i like this new regeneration
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Aug 7, 2017 05:33
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I know classic who recast actors a lot but man it was weird seeing him sans yellowface in a Pertwee story (the dinosaur one i think? It's been a while)
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Aug 7, 2017 06:24
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corn in the bible posted:maybe k-9 could come back Narsham posted:Old companion brought back? How about the appropriate companion for a Doctor who just got traumatized fighting the Cybermen? Handles Mk. 2.
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Aug 7, 2017 06:24
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garf body pam head
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Aug 7, 2017 06:49
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in reality they should bring back cool gay fbi man because he was cool
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Aug 7, 2017 08:12
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Bicyclops posted:Meanwhile, the en are awake and then are told in the very next sentence that they didn't need children after all. Something else that didn't need children: the episode. 
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Aug 7, 2017 08:22
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Jerusalem posted:Yep, lots of people do, including me. They were an extremely popular companion duo. I've always felt bad about Rory's dad, who told the Doctor to bring Amy and Rory back safe. I mean, yeah, Amy and Rory still lived happily ever after in old New York, but their dad will never see them again, y'know?
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Aug 7, 2017 08:49
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I think "Nightmare In Silver" was the first time I posted in a Doctor Who thread, and I feel like I did it so I could say "Man, those kids were annoying".
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Aug 7, 2017 09:38
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corn in the bible posted:in reality they should bring back cool gay fbi man because he was cool In fairness, Mark Sheppard's busy appearing on every other television series that has ever existed or will ever exist.
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Aug 7, 2017 11:48
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Wheezle posted:How is that racist?? In universe he- I'll bite. The best thing you could say about Talons is that it's trying to be less racist than the Yellow Peril source material it's based on; the character is playing to stereotypes and drops the me-so-sally accent when he's off the stage. This makes all of their missteps worse, since they lose (some of) the window dressing while keeping the overall theme, namely a network of inscrutable Chinamen marching in lockstep to carry out their secretive plans. The villain turning out to be a (presumably) white guy from the future is an attempt to show that they're good chaps, really, just misled; this only succeeds in robbing them of agency (for of course, they could never pose a threat to The Doctor without outside help  ), while at the same time falling flat because Chang and his men are still perfectly willing to sacrifice virginal white women to a rat monster.All in all, The Talons of Weng Chiang makes a smug "look how far we've come" attempt at a non racist portrayal, without realizing that they haven't come nearly far enough. I know I'm violently agreeing with you, I just really wanted to discuss that serial Astroman posted:What about the actors? Do they bear no responsibility for choosing to take the roles? I, too, am mystified as to why actors, especially minority actors who are commonly shut out of major roles, would choose to appear in Britain's most internationally famous television show if they disagree with their portrayal.
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Aug 7, 2017 13:28
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Astroman posted:No, you guys just want to be able to say things like lol sure thing Astroman, that's the way it goes, the people who bring it up are the ones who call it a "derail." Wheat Loaf posted:I think "Nightmare In Silver" was the first time I posted in a Doctor Who thread, and I feel like I did it so I could say "Man, those kids were annoying". Yeah, the young lady in particular literally walks into a room full of soldiers and says "Hello? I'm bored?" and even if they were Mary Poppins-esque little rascals, I don't think it really would have made her very endearing. They're captured so early in the episode, though, and then just stand around blipping and looking blankly, like they sort of don't understand what their purpose is, or was, besides to be motivation for the Doctor and Clara to beat the Cybermen. In a scenario where they were getting attacked by sentient roller coasters or carnival games instead, they could have been fun. He'll never get brought back in the TV show (because, uh, speaking of racism), but the Toymaker is really perfect for Gaiman's style of writing, and he probably would have been a better fit for the villain in Nightmare in Silver's setting (it's like The Nightmare Fair, but in space!).
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Aug 7, 2017 14:57
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Murderion posted:I'll bite. In the end, I'm not sure which is worse: writing Chang as an interesting character and then casting him as a white actor in yellowface (hey, a good part for an Asian actor, too bad none of them were right for it), or constructing Greel as a potential inditement of colonalism and then doing so little with him while making Lightfoot so obviously wonderful.
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Aug 7, 2017 15:32
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Bicyclops posted:Yeah, the young lady in particular literally walks into a room full of soldiers and says "Hello? I'm bored?" and even if they were Mary Poppins-esque little rascals, I don't think it really would have made her very endearing. They're captured so early in the episode, though, and then just stand around blipping and looking blankly, like they sort of don't understand what their purpose is, or was, besides to be motivation for the Doctor and Clara to beat the Cybermen. My takeaway was that the girl is annoying and the boy is there.
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Aug 7, 2017 15:32
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Wheat Loaf posted:My takeaway was that the girl is annoying and the boy is there. Honestly they were just poorly written characters for a family show. They were children as seen by adults who don't like children much: an annoying burden. What are the kids watching at home supposed to get out of that? How are young viewers supposed to identify with them? Maybe the Victorian children were filled with wonder and mischief and got into trouble while playing and generally being kids, but then when he had to rewrite it with modern kids and one of them is an adolescent he just made them bored and annoying because he didn't care about these characters.
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Aug 7, 2017 15:49
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Facebook Aunt posted:Honestly they were just poorly written characters for a family show. They were children as seen by adults who don't like children much: an annoying burden. What are the kids watching at home supposed to get out of that? How are young viewers supposed to identify with them? I guess there's an argument to be made that kids are supposed to identify with the younger brother, who is scared but gets no help from his sister, and who constantly advises her to do what Clara said, but then, it's like... maybe after the first 15 minutes that he disappears into Cyberland? I get the humor in the "Sorry folks, Wally World is closed!" set up, but it really does give them nothing to do.
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Aug 7, 2017 16:00
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Bicyclops posted:lol sure thing Astroman, that's the way it goes, the people who bring it up are the ones who call it a "derail." Well let's see: Bicyclops posted:In fact, it gets to be so exhausting, dealing with the same tired "I guess it's racist whenever a person of color does anything bad in media, followed by pages of pages of people bending over backwards finding fictional "in-universe"reasons why it is okay, as if the fantastical and science fiction written in our time does not have real life analogues and influences, argument after argument that isn't even "Well, I actually think it addresses regressive stereotypes via..." but flat-out denials that there is a problem, and assertions that the person who suggested insensitivity is part of some kind of "outrage police," that discussion becomes impossible. It's even entirely possible to disagree on what is regressive or progressive and to have a good discussion about it, because fiction is subject to interpretations based on individual experiences, and people might see nuance differently. You're saying here that if you point out what you perceive as racism in media, and someone disagrees with your basic premise, they are denying, deriding, and outright dismissing it. You're saying that sure, it can be discussed, but only if they start by saying "Well, I actually think it addresses regressive stereotypes via.." and that if someone denies they see what you see, then "discussion becomes impossible." It's you, it is you who is shutting down discussion.  Murderion posted:I, too, am mystified as to why actors, especially minority actors who are commonly shut out of major roles, would choose to appear in Britain's most internationally famous television show if they disagree with their portrayal. Hmm, maybe you could whitesplain to these professional actors how they are being sucked in by institutional racism into acting against their best interests as you see them. Here's their twitters, I'm sure they'd love it if you #WOKE them: https://twitter.com/ashleywalters82?lang=en https://twitter.com/007markoliver?lang=en https://twitter.com/mrjevvy?lang=en Let us know how it goes.  FWIW, I do agree that Talons of Weng Chiang is pretty horribly racist. 
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Aug 8, 2017 01:40
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The Doctor Falls: "People plus technology minus humanity. The internet, cyberspace, Cybermen..." Dark Water: "Upload the mind, upgrade the body. Cybermen from cyberspace. Now, why has no-one ever thought of that before?" nice
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Aug 8, 2017 02:37
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2house2fly posted:The Doctor Falls: "People plus technology minus humanity. The internet, cyberspace, Cybermen..." yeah except didnt they already do that with the stupid evil wifi robot cyborgs
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Aug 8, 2017 02:54
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Ooh Missy put Clara and the Doctor together, which means there's every chance she knew that in the original timeline Clara got killed by a spoonhead, so she could have jacked some spoonhead technology for herself E: Moffat set The Doctor Falls on floor 507 as an homage to Russell T Davies's habit of using 57 as a random number... he did the same thing in Last Christmas, the first page they have everyone turn to in the dream test is 57 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 03:36
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2house2fly posted:Ooh Missy put Clara and the Doctor together, which means there's every chance she knew that in the original timeline Clara got killed by a spoonhead, so she could have jacked some spoonhead technology for herself  
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Aug 8, 2017 03:52
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Astroman posted:You're saying that sure, it can be discussed, but only if they start by saying "Well, I actually think it addresses regressive stereotypes via.." and that if someone denies they see what you see, then "discussion becomes impossible." No, that's not what he said. The problem is that, when discussing racism or sexism or homophobia or transphobia or anything similar in media, the side that suggests that "actually the piece of media in question is fine" very strongly tends to completely fail to engage with the arguments being put forward, in a similar style to: http://www.theonion.com/multiblogpost/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-regio-11534
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Aug 8, 2017 08:53
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Now that's racist.
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Aug 8, 2017 08:56
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I think "Talons of Weng Chiang" is my favourite story overall. It's a toss-up between it and "Brain of Morbius". I haven't watched either in a while, though, so I will have to do so soon.
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Aug 8, 2017 09:09
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I honestly regret opening that can of worm, but man, if you can't see how difficult it can be to engage on this when the first response was literally to tell me that I was arguing that any piece of media that paints a black character in a negative light is racist... I don't know what to say. It's fine if you disagree, by the way, though personally I still feel like that episode is perilously closed to depicting characters that fit a very uncomfortable negative racial stereotype.
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Aug 8, 2017 11:53
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:
That's a much more nuanced take than "is racist"
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Aug 8, 2017 12:45
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2house2fly posted:That's a much more nuanced take than "is racist" Exactly--he started the discussion with an un-nuanced statement, kickflipped away, and then when people responded then suddenly nuance was required on thier part. I do believe racism exists. I do believe there are racist people who deliberately betray minorities in a bad light. However in this case, in what is one of the most progressive shows on tv, it's reaching to say that they were being racist, or casting black actors in these roles would be seen by the average person as confirming a negative stereotype of blacks as criminals or carjackers. The only people who see this are people who are trying to find racism, sexism, etc around every corner, and by pointing it out it not only actually creates the association to the general public who didn't see it, it also trivializes it when real examples are pointed out, making the general public more likely to dismiss them.
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Aug 8, 2017 13:19
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Stereotyping works subtle and is so ingrained you often don't even realise it unless it's pointed out, and then the reaction is often very hostile, often especially by people who think themselves as very progressive and think they can't fall victim to prejudices and stereotypes. Being a very progressive show still means a very progressive show of its time. And stuff that was fine or even progressive 30-50 years ago might still be rather cringeworthy or questionable from our point of view (and the same will hopefully happen with what we think is our most enlightened and progressive stances). Star Trek for example was very progressive with a Black woman, a Japanese man and a Russian man as main cast. Still, the woman did the "womanly" soft skill communication stuff, and the two minority men were second billing who were regaled to the more wacky things. The boss was still a white (sexy Canadian) man, and even the most progressive move by Roddenberry that the studio blocked, was "only" putting a women in place #2 of the command structure, but not at place #1 (granted, he wouldn't have a chance in hell to get that approved).
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Aug 8, 2017 13:37
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:the first response was literally to tell me that I was arguing that any piece of media that paints a black character in a negative light is racist... This is the issue in a nutshell. This is why these arguments are always such a fuckarow (in fact, it's why they are heated arguments instead of discussion). Even people who argue points frequently suggest that the people claiming something is insensitive are doing just because they're looking to be outraged which poisons the well and honestly, is patently ridiculous in every way. Astroman does it directly below: insisting that literally the only way someone could find racism in the episode is if they are searching for it everywhere. That's the lack of nuance, and it's really, incredibly stupid to believe that five people who posted about it are just walking around all day looking for something to manufacture outrage about. You have to absolutely bend over backward to believe that is how anyone except for an extremely tiny minority of people are acting, and it is always arguing in bad faith to suggest it. Always, every time. Astroman posted:Exactly--he started the discussion with an un-nuanced statement, kickflipped away, and then when people responded then suddenly nuance was required on thier part. You have a fundamental misunderstanding or how racism works. Racism is not necessarily a mean-spirited klansman cackling merrily and deliberately reflecting his hatred through his writing. An accidentally insensitive character portrayal based upon stereotypes is a part of institutionalized racism and saying "It was racist" is not an incorrect statement. That there is a kneejerk reaction to believe that word ascribes intent is not the fault of the person posting it.
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Aug 8, 2017 13:50
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http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-40851896/jodie-whittaker-reacts-to-fans-dressing-up-as-her-in-the-new-doctor-who The BBC showed Jodie Whittaker a bunch of videos of people cosplaying her Doctor and she's just delighted by it. Awesome.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:02
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Hey! I'm getting back into heavy reading. Beats heavy internet use right? Has anybody any Doctor Who novels they would recommend? Thanks!
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Aug 8, 2017 14:08
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Bicyclops posted:This is the issue in a nutshell. This is why these arguments are always such a fuckarow (in fact, it's why they are heated arguments instead of discussion). Even people who argue points frequently suggest that the people claiming something is insensitive are doing just because they're looking to be outraged which poisons the well and honestly, is patently ridiculous in every way. Astroman does it directly below: insisting that literally the only way someone could find racism in the episode is if they are searching for it everywhere. That's the lack of nuance, and it's really, incredibly stupid to believe that five people who posted about it are just walking around all day looking for something to manufacture outrage about. You have to absolutely bend over backward to believe that is how anyone except for an extremely tiny minority of people are acting, and it is always arguing in bad faith to suggest it. Always, every time. I read this in 4's voice because of your av.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:47
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Bicyclops posted:An accidentally insensitive character portrayal based upon stereotypes is a part of institutionalized racism and saying "It was racist" is not an incorrect statement. sure but in that case surely it's necessary to acknowledge the progress made in this episode, whose racist side characters have a level of sympathy and depth you don't often see in the show full stop, never mind in nonwhite characters
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Aug 8, 2017 14:53
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To add to the above,Astroman posted:However in this case, in what is one of the most progressive shows on tv This idea comes up a lot - that being progressive is only a single axis, that you can't be progressive on some issues but regressive on another. This is absolutely not the case - see, for example, the large number of anti-lesbian gay men there have been in recent decades, or the extremely vocal group of Trans-exclusionary Radical Feminists that pop up (especially in The Guardian, which is generally considered the most progressive newspaper in the UK as a direct example of how being "progressive" doesn't mean you can't be prejudiced or represent prejudiced views). On top of that we know Doctor Who can be insensitive (to put it mildly) on a lot of issues. Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS is by no means the only episode which skirts close to (or embraces fully) being an example of institutionalised prejudice.
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Aug 8, 2017 15:08
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CommonShore posted:I read this in 4's voice because of your av. Look, Astroman, you're an incredibly handsome man, probably...
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Aug 8, 2017 15:12
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Lampsacus posted:Hey! I'm getting back into heavy reading. Beats heavy internet use right? Has anybody any Doctor Who novels they would recommend? Do you want the one where people try to gently caress Ace, or the one where people actually gently caress Ace
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Aug 8, 2017 15:36
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Burkion posted:Do you want the one where people try to gently caress Ace, or the one where people actually gently caress Ace Or the one where metal Ace attacks you with jizzy hands 
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Aug 8, 2017 15:43
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