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I mean if you have a friend in the county recorder office and backdate the lien and things well maybe you can. You'd be surprised how archaic our property recording system is
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Aug 8, 2017 04:19
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We can say "who are you to question it" because it's clear you don't know how it works. For example, the plumber does not set the sale price, it's goes to auction or a private sale for fair market value. Even then, (at least Texas iirc) mechanics liens have to go thru a judicial foreclosure, which means the plumber has to convince a judge to foreclose on the property. And then chances are there's a bank with a mortgage which will redeem the debt rather than have the house sold And all that ignores the hoops the plumber has to jump thru to get a lien and perfect it against superior security interests in the house. Or if it's not a state like Texas with strong homestead protections, then the plumber could get a judgment and then a judgment lien and do the same thing as any other creditor. Your security company absolutely could get a security interest in the building or other property and force the sale if that was what was contracted. A plumber might get preference under the law, but so do a bunch of other creditors. Turns out public policy prefers protecting some creditors over others! Crazy poo poo! Don't call people that know what they're talking about robots or stupid when you have no clue what you are talking about xxEightxx posted:I mean if you have a friend in the county recorder office and backdate the lien and things well maybe you can. You'd be surprised how archaic our property recording system is Once again, committing fraud is not a valid argument EwokEntourage fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 04:31
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You'd think that but me and my commissioner friend owned half this town and we would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids
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Aug 8, 2017 04:34
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Also I just noticed he agreed with the person who literally takes people land away from them
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Aug 8, 2017 04:38
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Well... You'd be surprised how hard a validly recorded lien is to contest.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:45
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I'm arguing against that being a built in remedy, not it being a remedy at all. You should have to sue for it, not just some paperwork you fill out saying "I totally did work on this house and now own it." I realize many states are probably harder than that, but not all of them. And yes, a lay person is allowed to have a say in the law. That's the point of democracy
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Aug 8, 2017 04:56
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EwokEntourage posted:
I have no strong opinions about plumbers liens and your argument seems perfectly reasonable but the guy he called a robot was making the "what's wrong with debtors prisons, people should pay their debts" argument so "robot" seems pretty fair imo
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Aug 8, 2017 05:01
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:I have no strong opinions about plumbers liens and your argument seems perfectly reasonable but the guy he called a robot was making the "what's wrong with debtors prisons, people should pay their debts" argument so "robot" seems pretty fair imo Holy poo poo in all the I-texted-my-friend-to-kill-himself I missed this gold. Truly the highlight of the legal question megathread. How do I five star a post? The all new legal questions megathread: ask us itt how to fill out a form to take your neighbor's house
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Aug 8, 2017 05:06
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That's not what i said at all. I said don't contract for services you have no intention of paying. That's theft. Is it immoral in your world for a bank to repo a car that hasn't been paid for an extended period of time?
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Aug 8, 2017 05:06
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"have no intention of paying" when contracting for service seems a shallow interpretation of reasons that one might not be able to pay once the service is performed, but I fear it's actually bad faith.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:08
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Mr. Nice! posted:That's not what i said at all. I said don't contract for services you have no intention of paying. That's theft. Is it immoral in your world for a bank to repo a car that hasn't been paid for an extended period of time? I feel like that question depends on so many other factors to answer. Does this person rely on the car for transportation? Without it will the person be able to reliably get to work, the grocery store, a doctor? It really depends, depending on where you live it can be pretty easy to get by without a car, but there are lots of places where public transportation is so lovely if you take away a person's only means of transportation then they can be kind of screwed over.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:11
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I say that because this is a drawn out process. There are opportunities to work with the other person to settle the obligation long before lien foreclosure would come into play.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:11
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Mr. Nice! posted:That's not what i said at all. I said don't contract for services you have no intention of paying. That's theft. Is it immoral in your world for a bank to repo a car that hasn't been paid for an extended period of time? right, I think he was calling you a robot for thinking that is the only way someone could end up being unable to pay their plumber
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Aug 8, 2017 05:15
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Doorknob Slobber posted:I feel like that question depends on so many other factors to answer. Does this person rely on the car for transportation? Without it will the person be able to reliably get to work, the grocery store, a doctor? It really depends, depending on where you live it can be pretty easy to get by without a car, but there are lots of places where public transportation is so lovely if you take away a person's only means of transportation then they can be kind of screwed over. The mechanic isn't stealing the person's car. The car's owner gave them possession of the vehicle for the purpose of fixing it. The mechanic is typically required to give a quote for repairs and notify people if there is more work that has to be done. Yeah, someone can get screwed by circumstance if their only vehicle breaks down. It sucks, but that doesn't mean that it justifies theft of parts/services.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:19
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:right, I think he was calling you a robot for thinking that is the only way someone could end up being unable to pay their plumber Jeb Bush 2012 posted:right, I think he was calling you a robot for thinking that is the only way someone could end up being unable to pay their plumber It started with a talk about an auto mechanic foreclosing on a car. The plumber strawman came later.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:20
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Mr. Nice! posted:It started with a talk about an auto mechanic foreclosing on a car. The plumber strawman came later. your post that I am referring to literally includes the word "plumber" and yes, responding to "I think this is too harsh" with "don't contract for services you have no intention of paying. That's theft" is literally the defence for debtor's prisons. that's what we do with thieves!
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Aug 8, 2017 05:22
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KillHour posted:I'm arguing against that being a built in remedy, not it being a remedy at all. You should have to sue for it, not just some paperwork you fill out saying "I totally did work on this house and now own it." I realize many states are probably harder than that, but not all of them. And yes, a lay person is allowed to have a say in the law. That's the point of democracy Again, you have no clue what you are actually arguing against. I'm not going to do the research on 50 different states. However, you said you read the wikipedia page. That same page states "Mechanic's liens are enforced exclusively through judicial foreclosure sales, i.e., through court proceedings similar to mortgage foreclosures." So, according to the one page you read on the topic, mechanic liens have to go thru the courts to be enforced, which means that yes, you have to sue for it. Even then, its more than just "some paperwork." Lay people can have a say on laws, sure. You can vote. Go vote. Don't tell people they're wrong when you don't know what you are talking about.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:24
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:your post that I am referring to literally includes the word "plumber" You are literally the one person talking about prison for not paying a debt Wahhhh why are people talking about how the law works in the thread for legal advice EwokEntourage fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 05:25
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Aug 8, 2017 05:29
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I think the problem was bringing morality into the legal thread.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:32
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EwokEntourage posted:You are literally the one person talking about prison for not paying a debt no poo poo man, I totally thought mr. nice was in favour of debtors prisons, that was 100% the point of my post
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Aug 8, 2017 05:33
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The idea that any recentish law grad would be in favor of debtors prison is laughable. Most of us would be there.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:41
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:your post that I am referring to literally includes the word "plumber" Mr. Nice! posted:lol You're right, I did have plumber in there because people had already been talking about that strawman as well. I was making jokes because the whole thing as presented was ridiculous. Also, can you think of a more appropriate word than theft to refer to taking physical items (whatever parts were used in repairs) and the labor to install them without intent to pay? The entire process to perfect the lien allows for plenty of time where something could be worked out in crazy exigent circumstances.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:41
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nm posted:The idea that any recentish law grad would be in favor of debtors prison is laughable. Most of us would be there. My friend let me introduce you to the members of the local federalist society.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:43
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Mr. Nice! posted:My friend let me introduce you to the members of the local federalist society. The only moral debt forgiveness is my debt forgiveness.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:44
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Mr. Nice! posted:You're right, I did have plumber in there because people had already been talking about that strawman as well. I was making jokes because the whole thing as presented was ridiculous. Also, can you think of a more appropriate word than theft to refer to taking physical items (whatever parts were used in repairs) and the labor to install them without intent to pay? The entire process to perfect the lien allows for plenty of time where something could be worked out in crazy exigent circumstances. again, the point is that you can 100% end up being unable to pay your plumber without ever having *intended* for it to happen. this is what I meant by the references to debtors prisons - it seems more or less fair to send someone to prison if they deliberately borrow a hundred grand while cackling internally about how the lender will never see a penny, but we don't treat failure to repay debts as theft for pretty obvious reasons I'm happy to take your word for the last part, but it's not what you said in your post, which is why you sounded robot-ish and why I thought it was fair for the guy to call you a robot about it
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Aug 8, 2017 05:49
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I'll make my shitposting responses to dumb poo poo more clear in the future. 
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Aug 8, 2017 06:00
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Mr. Nice! posted:I'll make my shitposting responses to dumb poo poo more clear in the future. Maybe if you were actually responding to dumb poo poo it would be more obvious. 
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Aug 8, 2017 06:10
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It takes effort to deconstruct and point out all the flaws in a radical strawman. I think it's more constructive to laugh at it. But i also did include correct information. Don't agree for someone to repair your car if you don't intend on paying for it. I agree that an auto can be a necessity and it sucks impossibly bad to be without one, but that doesn't suddenly make it ok to rob the mechanic. Likewise in the case of the emergency plumber: there's a long jump between fixing something and foreclosure. The process various between jurisdictions and a number of the things would potentially be covered under insurance. Insurance default coverage varies with jurisdiction as well, but there are definitely riders that can be added that cover most anything.
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Aug 8, 2017 06:22
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Mr. Nice! posted:It takes effort to deconstruct and point out all the flaws in a radical strawman. I think it's more constructive to laugh at it. I'm not the one making strawmen here, guy. "If you have the time and money to adequately plan ahead for your future and everyone involved is acting in good faith, you probably won't get foreclosed on," is completely ignoring my point that it is trivial to come up with examples where someone isn't intentionally robbing anyone and still can't afford to pay and that the remedy to that probably shouldn't involve making someone homeless or without transportation. But you just have to go full Galt and talk incessantly about how the innocent mechanic is getting robbed blind by these dastardly ne'er-do-wells that intentionally set out to defraud hard-working job creators. Guess what? I don't give a poo poo if Midas or Jiffy Lube loses $500 and has to send it to collections. Boo-hoo. That's the cost of doing business.
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Aug 8, 2017 06:44
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What could possibly happen in the 20 minutes that you're sitting at a jiffy lube between drop off and payment that suddenly make it not theft to drive off without paying? You're crafting extremely implausible scenarios that have no basis in reality. I know that bad poo poo can happen. Our lack of a social safety net is tragic and needlessly destroys lives. However people aren't posting legit situations to show a flaw in the lien scheme.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:11
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What is your solution then
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Aug 8, 2017 07:30
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Workmen's liens are hardly the product of a capitalist society, they're there to give the self-employed working class some measure of protection because they wouldn't be able to eat if people stopped habitually paying them.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:53
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KillHour posted:Maybe if you were actually responding to dumb poo poo it would be more obvious. Hello! My legal advice to you is that he was responding to dumb poo poo. Hth! Mr. Nice! posted:I know that bad poo poo can happen. Our lack of a social safety net is tragic and needlessly destroys lives. However people aren't posting legit situations to show a flaw in the lien scheme. Hell, even with a social safety net I've experienced myself the problems with a lien system (and I live in a very socialist country). For one, it's entirely possible to avoid due process against typically bad creditors, such as insane people under guardianship (concrete example), by simply never notifiying the legal guardian of a process to establish a lien (the insane person is obviously going to be a no show in court). It's technically an invalid lien, but it may still beyond the ability/cost effectiveness of that insane person to contest it in court later, even if they understood that they could (didn't wanna). Obviously, that's a non-US and a rare case, but it happens even in a society with very significant social safety nets. Just like pretty much everywhere in the system, a bad thing can happen. Is this reason to abolish the entire system of liens which is a really old and really integral part of a functioning society (aka. property law), which allows critical work to be done now and the details sorted out later? I don't see a single reason why that should happen. It's also not going to happen. So in the case of liens, it's a good idea to accept the reality we live in because that's the one that y'all have to deal with.
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Aug 8, 2017 10:03
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EwokEntourage posted:Also I just noticed he agreed with the person who literally takes people land away from them I view my job as a moral good: I take land from private owners and return it to the soothing bosom of the State. It's socialism in action! Seriously though, I have no problem with mechanics liens for the car mechanic or the plumber. As pointed out, it's not an instant process. I wish there was a better safety net so everyone who needed repairs to their home or car could afford it without having to get a third job, but there isn't. It would be immoral for the people who do the labor to repair your home to be easily swindled out of the money by forcing you to sue every time to get paid. Winning a lawsuit is no guarantee you'll be paid anyway; I'm a also a collections attorney and I routinely collect on 10+ year old judgments. These scenarios don't happen often. My mechanic always calls me first with an estimate and I approve the charges. I recently had 3k in plumbing emergency repairs. I told the guy I didn't have 3k, so he fixed it and let me pay it off monthly. If he had fixed my house and I refused to pay, I'm actually a bad guy and I deserve to have my house auctioned. I also deserve to receive the equity after the plumber and mortgage company are paid. I'm literally in favor of the strongest possible socialism we can have and I don't want laborers to have no way to collect when owed money. And since the judicial system is expensive and usually random, I'm glad they have an easier remedy to secure payment. Sometimes just the threat or filing of the lien results in getting their money. Edit: left an important verb out of an above sentence. Hot Dog Day #91 fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 11:00
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If you owe a company money absent a loan agreement, and they think they can make it back faster by putting you to work, e.g. hard labor, they can legally kidnap you and put you to work. No need for prisons, we can privatize the punishment.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:14
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Hmm, I took this bag of cheetos, but by the time I got to the counter I realized I couldn't afford them so I walked out with them. YOU CAN'T SEND ME TO DEBTOR'S PRISON.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:18
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blarzgh posted:Hmm, I took this bag of cheetos, but by the time I got to the counter I realized I couldn't afford them so I walked out with them. YOU CAN'T SEND ME TO DEBTOR'S PRISON. Does the bag have a gold fringe? In that case they can't put you in debtor's prison you unless you consent to create cloister.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:35
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Aug 8, 2017 14:53
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Debtors prison sounds pretty good boys. So long as it's nothing like actual prison.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:53
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