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Kamoshida and Sae are good antagonists.
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Aug 7, 2017 03:23
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Sae is the best antagonist in the game but It just strikes me as weird that the one time the gang decide to actually go against someone who is part of the systems that run Japan because of how Japan is run RE: the high conviction rate it just gets kind of swept under the rug and she gets to join team hero no questions asked. I know Akechi is setting her up as a decoy, but she did still presumably rig cases or is at least planning to rig your's, considering what her Palace is. The only time you go against someone who isn't a literal criminal but actually part of the established power structure of the nation we just forget about it and trust things will work out. I have problems with Kamoshida but I really don't feel like having that discussion on an internet form so I won't. He is still one of the better Palace rulers and the game does a good job making you want to take him down and also making him not boring as gently caress.
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Aug 7, 2017 04:06
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Is Okumura actually a villian? He had some unsavoury practices and probably had Shido 'remove' some of his competitors, but I don't know if there was actually anything illegal in how he ran his business. I mean yeah using your daughter as a bargaining chip is skeevy but arranged marriages aren't illegal.
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Aug 7, 2017 06:14
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ApplesandOranges posted:Is Okumura actually a villian? He had some unsavoury practices and probably had Shido 'remove' some of his competitors, but I don't know if there was actually anything illegal in how he ran his business. I think having your competitors murdered or ruined or whatever it was is a crime. Even if he had Shido do it for him.
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Aug 7, 2017 06:38
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ApplesandOranges posted:Is Okumura actually a villian? He had some unsavoury practices and probably had Shido 'remove' some of his competitors, but I don't know if there was actually anything illegal in how he ran his business.  Even disregarding selling off his daughter to a creepy raper guy and having competitors killed, he sees his employees as tools, with injury and death from overwork an acknowledged and accepted outcome of his practices.
Motto fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Aug 7, 2017 |
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Aug 7, 2017 06:53
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ApplesandOranges posted:Is Okumura actually a villian? He had some unsavoury practices and probably had Shido 'remove' some of his competitors, but I don't know if there was actually anything illegal in how he ran his business. Yes, he was using low quality meat that was making people very ill. In addition: Motto posted:
He was a bad man.
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Aug 7, 2017 07:00
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Oh he's shady, but for some reason it just feels like a step down from the first three palaces. Maybe because the victims of the first three villians were teenagers/kids, while Okumura overworked adults. That and the whole 'he was totally rigged to become a target'. I mean that whole section of the game is kinda weak, but 'by the way Okumura is a scumbag who's selling his daughter' feels like it's a little tacked on just to give him an extra shot of villiany.
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Aug 7, 2017 07:00
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Yeah Okumura is probably the worst villain in the game and a step down from the previous ones. There's others just as bland but they at least get like a scene or 2 with the gang, and on top of that the pre-palace 5 stuff is the worst part of the game. Even counting that he's still a terrible person and criminal though, I don't think that can really be argued against.
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Aug 7, 2017 07:23
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I thought that was the point. Okumura isn't that bad in comparison- "Oh no this CEO doesn't care about his employees" can probably be said about every CEO in the country. Sure he's a scumbag but that's beside the point. That's why him reaching the top of the popularity rankings was a hack, because he never would've made it to #1 most wanted alone. And the arranged marriage was the only reason the team needed to take him down.
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Aug 7, 2017 07:24
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He's definitely a villain but it is true that he gets way less development than any of the game's other villains. His personal connection to the team is only through a character who is not introduced until you're already in his palace. While every single other phantom thieves target had a moderate to extremely personal connection to the thieves/joker beforehand. I did not feel like kaneshiro got much development either. Madarame got plenty but it was weirdly more after you take him down than before (mostly in yusuke's social link). None of the villains got a conclusion as good as kamoshida's. But kamoshida is a top tier villain in general
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Aug 7, 2017 07:28
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Phantom Thieves never do steal Sae's treasure, right? Meaning her change of heart was internal, kind of like Futaba?
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Aug 7, 2017 08:33
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Wordnumber posted:Halfway through playthrough 2 and it's weird how much of a step up in level design palaces 3 and 4 are from the rest. Most of them are just straight lines and 3 and 4 are still mostly that but they have some cool moments where the level loops back on itself and the pyramid in particular has a bunch of decent side areas spread about and all around better pacing then most of them. 6 and 7 have cool core concepts but they both suffer from "Actually let's just jam a terrible characterless labyrinth between these two rooms because it's not dungeon enough yet." Mementos Depths is also a straight line but I appreciate it being a marathon because of how spread out the safe rooms are. Pyramid was the peak of the dungeon experience. Space Station had a cool theme but felt a bit empty. Casino is when I started to get annoyed by some of the mechanics. Cruise by the second mouse dungeon I was ready for a "skip this dungeon" button Sea Sponge Run posted:The third palace has horribly placed save points, or lack thereof The design of the palace lets you loop back and keep using the same save points though
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Aug 7, 2017 08:45
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Cavelcade posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Phantom Thieves never do steal Sae's treasure, right? Meaning her change of heart was internal, kind of like Futaba? Correct.
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Aug 7, 2017 08:59
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Digirat posted:
Is there a huge reason people focus Kamoshida other than he's the person who has the most influence over Joker and his friends? Ofc his actions were wrong and using his authority as a teacher to pressure students is abusive but so did Shido who left Akechi's mother and filed criminal charges against Joker which caused him to be ostracized by society. This is not a who is the worst villain convo in P5 but I see him brought up all the time over artist man, gangster, Shido, and evil CEO. I felt the most depressing moment is when we revealed Shido was evil and everyone didn't care at all from their reactions. FWIW: I went a small somewhat exclusive HS and we had 3-5 teachers who vanished for various reasons we never discussed again. Also, a few students disappeared from the grade due to unknown reasons. Joker's new private school reminded me of my own exp during school 
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Aug 7, 2017 13:03
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I think something about Kamosihida that elevates him above other villeins is that the game does a good job letting him have a lasting effect on the plot and characters. Kamoshida factors into Ann and Ryuji's Confidants, Makoto and Ann's relationship, the Principle's Assassination, and Sae's investigation into Shujin. People even just talk about it casually on the train, the player is contently reminded of it and it has a big impact on a lot of elements. In caparison, Madarame and Kanoshiro both feel like stepping stones, being almost completely dropped from the plot after they confess. Madarame only really comes up in Yusuke's Confidant, and Kanoshira isn't even a factor in Makoto's. Okumura's death has a huge effect on the plot but he's such a boring charterer with no lead-up and he and Haru basically step into the plot out of nowhere so it's hard to care. Shido should by all means be a much better antagonist then he is but the conspiracy plot is so poorly handled, with most of it being experienced through the SIU Director and the Principle, characters the Phantom Thieves barely interact with if at all, that it's both hard to care and hard to attributive it to Shido. It doesn't help that Shido is upstaged by his own son an hour earlier and is also just one more unrepentant rear end in a top hat in a game of unrepentant assholes. Shido makes a much better plot device then anything else, explaining why the conspiracy exists, what's up with Akechi, and why we need to steal the Treasure of Mementos. Most of the antagonists function better as contrivances for Ryuji to scream "lovely Adults" at then comprehensive characters or even particularly effective symbols of The Problem with Modern Society.
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Aug 7, 2017 15:59
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Alder posted:I felt the most depressing moment is when we revealed Shido was evil and everyone didn't care at all from their reactions. It does hit pretty close to reality
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Aug 7, 2017 16:07
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On my replay I recently got to a point in May where the news cycle for an entire day is an employee at Wild-Duck Burger got naked randomly and it's pretty obvious Okumura made that happen, so add one to the board for him I guess. I just think it's funny how far in advance this game seeds these things.
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Aug 7, 2017 16:08
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I'd also say that Kamoshida's villainy feels more grounded in reality than Shido's who is bit more of a twirly moustache kind of villain
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Aug 7, 2017 16:09
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Considering how Okumura was a voted-in target, the fact that there's barely any reason to actually care about changing his heart until Haru's thing is revealed is probably the point. The fame from taking on Medjed had gotten to the characters, so they wanted to keep it going by going along with the public's wishes, instead of acting on their original goals of changing corrupt hearts to better society. In other words, they sold out and taking on Okumura didn't have the same good intentions behind it as their original actions. It's the point of their career where they could literally say "it's nothing personal, just business" to Okumura, at least until Haru joined up.
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Aug 7, 2017 16:10
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Hey, I'm at the point in my second play through where I need to decide who to date. Which non-Makoto girl has the most interesting romance?
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Aug 7, 2017 16:35
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I feel like the point of Okumura being a bad target would have had more weight to it if Haru's personal stake in it didn't exist and if he wasn't as bad as he was, because ultimately he is an ideal target for the Phantom Thieves, their biggest mistake isn't hanging around to watch his shadow disappear like they do with Kamoshida and the others (even if it's largely unintentionally).
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Aug 7, 2017 16:40
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Coughing Hobo posted:I feel like the point of Okumura being a bad target would have had more weight to it if Haru's personal stake in it didn't exist and if he wasn't as bad as he was, because ultimately he is an ideal target for the Phantom Thieves, their biggest mistake isn't hanging around to watch his shadow disappear like they do with Kamoshida and the others (even if it's largely unintentionally). Yeah, it would have been nice if Okumura been shown to have any redeeming characteristics before dying to make the situation a little more morally ambiguous.
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Aug 7, 2017 16:48
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Hey, I'm at the point in my second play through where I need to decide who to date. Which non-Makoto girl has the most interesting romance? Depends what you mean by interesting, but probably Kawakami.
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Aug 7, 2017 18:03
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Wordnumber posted:Shido should by all means be a much better antagonist then he is but the conspiracy plot is so poorly handled, with most of it being experienced through the SIU Director and the Principle, characters the Phantom Thieves barely interact with if at all, that it's both hard to care and hard to attributive it to Shido. It doesn't help that Shido is upstaged by his own son an hour earlier and is also just one more unrepentant rear end in a top hat in a game of unrepentant assholes. Shido makes a much better plot device then anything else, explaining why the conspiracy exists, what's up with Akechi, and why we need to steal the Treasure of Mementos. Most of the antagonists function better as contrivances for Ryuji to scream "lovely Adults" at then comprehensive characters or even particularly effective symbols of The Problem with Modern Society. Fair enough. I agree how Eggman and the Evil Govt Man ruined most of the scenes where they played a major role which should've gone to Akechi-kun and his life in Tokyo. I read someone's TL (from new P5 guide book) how they mentioned Akechi used to be a normal SL but then they wanted him to be the villain but failed to incorporate it well hence auto-rank ups which made little to no sense. I'd be fine if they killed Akechi just based on how pointless his entire existence wrt PT during the endgame despite being my 2nd favorite character in the game but making him an Uncertainty Lich is unforgivable  lovely Adults does make a lot of sense in a realistic way as it's less so crazy conspiracies vs just adults being cruel for no reason because they can towards minors/less-fortunate people. Also, at the end of the day, video games are video games regardless how much I wished it were different so I try to keep my expectations low to save myself the disappointment how Atlus failed to reform society through JRPGs.
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Aug 7, 2017 18:25
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I enjoyed the hell out if Persona 5 as it's own thing, but in the context of it's predecessors I'm not super fond of how the plot followed almost the same exact beats that 3 and 4 did.
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Aug 7, 2017 18:41
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Alder posted:I read someone's TL (from new P5 guide book) how they mentioned Akechi used to be a normal SL but then they wanted him to be the villain but failed to incorporate it well hence auto-rank ups which made little to no sense. Does anyone have this on hand or not mind digging it up? Akechi's sub plot feels super busted and I'd be interested in the hows and whys of it. It is really amazing how all over the place the script is. Mementos exists almost entirely because they couldn't drop the Igor twist and the last two anime cutsceens have a different moral then the entire rest of the game. I know they had to meld a couple scenarios together but it's still really baffling sometimes.
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Aug 7, 2017 19:16
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Wordnumber posted:the last two anime cutsceens have a different moral then the entire rest of the game. I know they had to meld a couple scenarios together but it's still really baffling sometimes. Sorry, do you mind elaborating on this? I actually thought they were fine, but I could be misremembering or reading something else into them than you were.
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Aug 7, 2017 19:54
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The whole "The whole world is Cognition and you just need to change the world is change your perspective, That's True "Aesthetics"" Spiel comes completely out of left field and after a game of people being placed in situations where hard and immediate action is required to avoid absolute disaster. It follows more from things like the Fortune Confidant where you teach Chihaya the value of not being such a sad sack, but then you have situations like when Kamikawi tries to stand up to her blackmailers and immediately gets threatened with a Super Law Suit unless the phantom thieves do something about it. No change of perspective was going to stop Kamoshida's abuse or deal with Shido running an assassins guild to get elected. Even if "just look at the world differently and everything will be different" was the theme they had in mind with the last version of the script they still do a piss poor job of leading up to it.
Wordnumber fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 7, 2017 |
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Aug 7, 2017 20:18
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Persona 5 in general just doesn't seem interested in committing to it's themes. like they wanted the pedigree of being centered around thieves and outcasts but didn't want to look all that hard at why people actually join those groups. even as all their villains are serial abusers of power P5 stops short of actually condemning the social forces at work (and on a few occasions does actually condemn rebellion, tell me again phantom thieves why standing up for the poor maligned Banks against non-superpowered scammers isn't hypocritical as poo poo)
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Aug 7, 2017 20:27
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Utgardaloki posted:tell me again phantom thieves why standing up for the poor maligned Banks against non-superpowered scammers isn't hypocritical as poo poo) What.
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Aug 7, 2017 20:54
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Wordnumber posted:The whole "The whole world is Cognition and you just need to change the world is change your perspective, That's True "Aesthetics"" Spiel comes completely out of left field and after a game of people being placed in situations where hard and impediment action is required to avoid absolute disaster. Oh, I see what you mean; I was thinking of something else then, yeah that doesn't really fit well. Utgardaloki posted:(and on a few occasions does actually condemn rebellion, tell me again phantom thieves why standing up for the poor maligned Banks against non-superpowered scammers isn't hypocritical as poo poo) If you want an actual answer it's because that action doesn't hurt the banks, it just hurts their customers and staff. Pratchet said it best "When banks fail it isn't the bankers who starve." Enriching yourself by scamming a bank and then trying to hide under the mantle of rebellion doesn't make you any less of a leech.
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Aug 7, 2017 20:54
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Wordnumber posted:Does anyone have this on hand or not mind digging it up? Akechi's sub plot feels super busted and I'd be interested in the hows and whys of it. It's from tumblr and I don't own the original guide/read JPN so take it with a grain of salt as always https://tmblr.co/ZSdw2u2OVHgk5 (NSFW). Also, the original writer is a bit  Mementos felt weird as if not only it had a terrible BGM but felt extremely pointless even if they made me visit it each time for some SL/quest. I'm still unhappy how I ran out of time and missed out some SL because of mementos-locks.
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Aug 7, 2017 22:25
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That tumblr link posted:Loki is a character well known within Norse Mythology and had a special place in earlier SMT games I remember when he was drowning his sorrows in liquor because some kid stole his $10 bill.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:51
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Special place in the games nothing. Loki had a special place in the original terrible novel, wherein he got summoned by Nakajima and proceeded to rape the guy's teacher because, uh, it's just a prank, bro? I don't really remember the specifics too much because, well, the book is really loving bad. Oh also he was the main antagonist but y'know, whatever. Loki's status as a big deal in the games has been very inconsistent though. Megami Tensei had him get rezzed by Lucifer and... end up as the third boss after Minotaur and Medusa. That's one of the higher points, really. Lotus Aura fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 12:36
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Wordnumber posted:The whole "The whole world is Cognition and you just need to change the world is change your perspective, That's True "Aesthetics"" Spiel comes completely out of left field and after a game of people being placed in situations where hard and immediate action is required to avoid absolute disaster. It follows more from things like the Fortune Confidant where you teach Chihaya the value of not being such a sad sack, but then you have situations like when Kamikawi tries to stand up to her blackmailers and immediately gets threatened with a Super Law Suit unless the phantom thieves do something about it. No change of perspective was going to stop Kamoshida's abuse or deal with Shido running an assassins guild to get elected. Even if "just look at the world differently and everything will be different" was the theme they had in mind with the last version of the script they still do a piss poor job of leading up to it. The more I think about this the more I'm starting to wonder if what they were trying to go for was more of a "this is what the world is meant to be like, and now that Yaldabaoth's got a new face piercing it has a chance to be this way again." It would fit with how it gets almost immediately followed up with the protagonist working within the system to get Shido put away, and then the scene with the rest of the thieves working to get him released and his record expunged, in direct opposition to how the game opens with him being crushed under a system that very clearly favors the powerful over a just resolution.
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Aug 8, 2017 13:14
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Keeshhound posted:The more I think about this the more I'm starting to wonder if what they were trying to go for was more of a "this is what the world is meant to be like, and now that Yaldabaoth's got a new face piercing it has a chance to be this way again." It would fit with how it gets almost immediately followed up with the protagonist working within the system to get Shido put away, and then the scene with the rest of the thieves working to get him released and his record expunged, in direct opposition to how the game opens with him being crushed under a system that very clearly favors the powerful over a just resolution. I think its premise is that that system only exists because people are too apathetic to care about stuff, and in the story that apathy is being magnified by Yaldy. Once his effect is gone people start to care about stuff again, and while that doesn't fix the system on its own it makes it possible for wilful people to fight against the system and win.
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Aug 8, 2017 13:26
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NRVNQSR posted:I think its premise is that that system only exists because people are too apathetic to care about stuff, and in the story that apathy is being magnified by Yaldy. Once his effect is gone people start to care about stuff again, and while that doesn't fix the system on its own it makes it possible for wilful people to fight against the system and win. That's probably a better way to phrase it. The key idea is that it's not meant as a culmination of the game's themes (as in "the power was inside you all along") so much as it is a "this (a world where you can effect change without brainfucking people) is your reward." Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 14:40
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The thing that's kinda bothered me about the ending since I saw it was that the game constantly sorta drills into you that maybe just because something is vast public opinion doesn't mean it's right. The comments you overhear on the loading screens are vapid and follow whatever the trend is, pretty much everything about the Phan-Site votes getting out of hand and being a bad idea, and the whole of Okumura's scenario happens. And then when you're fighting Yaldy, suddenly Floral Pants Man rallies the crowd and wait, actually, public opinion is good now, it lets you shoot a mega bullet? I think they're going more for a "people can be heroes and change the way the public thinks" vibe, or what NRVNQSR just said, but it felt a little off to me at first. I still think the game's writing is pretty top-notch, but there are some really notable awkward bits, mostly shuffled to the end of the game (Shido and Akechi having the phone call where they go "We're Evil" for like, two straight minutes).
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Aug 8, 2017 15:42
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LordHippoman posted:And then when you're fighting Yaldy, suddenly Floral Pants Man rallies the crowd and wait, actually, public opinion is good now, it lets you shoot a mega bullet? It's not that Public Opinion has itself become inherently good, it's that the public is finally looking beyond themselves and pulling together with you in order to make a better world (without lovely gods). The public comments and Okumura plot aren't meant to say that the public is always poo poo, just that when people are lazy and uncritical then they produce little of value, even as a collective. Which then contrasts with how, once their eyes are opened and they overcome their apathy, they give you the power to kill god. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 16:27
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Persona 5 felt like they hit the reset button a few times but kept some of the prior work and ideas. Dragonatrix posted:Special place in the games nothing. Loki had a special place in the original terrible novel, wherein he got summoned by Nakajima and proceeded to rape the guy's teacher because, uh, it's just a prank, bro? I don't really remember the specifics too much because, well, the book is really loving bad. Oh also he was the main antagonist but y'know, whatever. I still think that Nyarlathotep would have been a better fit for that Persona (he wouldn't have to even say anything, it could be like with Persona 1). Akechi had basically the same thing going on with Jun where he's being manipulated by cosmic forces using his parental resentment and given power which causes him to become a murderer.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:35
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