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Rhukatah posted:Are there any books you can recommend criticising the Soviet construction of socialism from the left? I'm currently reading Post War by Tony Judt which discusses collectivization/Stalinization in Czechoslovakia at some length and I'd love a similar treatment of the subject from a modern Marxist perspective. nothing i've read, no. the cold war hosed up soviet historiography so for obvious reasons you're not gonna find a lot from that perspective, in english anyway
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Aug 9, 2017 22:08
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I seriously don't understand the hand waving of this guy obviously deliberately concealing his cop union work in order to have a better shot at a leadership position, that's the whole problem. If he gets bounced out of national, there's another person with a super extensive history organizing ready to take their place who is a person of color AND hasn't organized cop unions. This guy isn't the loving Usain Bolt of organizing, there are plenty of great people in the mix with exhaustive histories of good work. If enough of your chapters are demanding he step down based on his shadiness, especially the shadiness of this type, then put it to a vote and, live or die by it, and then move the hell on, dang.
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Aug 9, 2017 22:21
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I'm extremely mad online
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Aug 9, 2017 22:24
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Loving Life Partner posted:I seriously don't understand the hand waving of this guy obviously deliberately concealing his cop union work in order to have a better shot at a leadership position, that's the whole problem. If he gets bounced out of national, there's another person with a super extensive history organizing ready to take their place who is a person of color AND hasn't organized cop unions. This guy isn't the loving Usain Bolt of organizing, there are plenty of great people in the mix with exhaustive histories of good work. If enough of your chapters are demanding he step down based on his shadiness, especially the shadiness of this type, then put it to a vote and, live or die by it, and then move the hell on, dang. So wait, kick him out or have a vote on it?
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Aug 9, 2017 22:32
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Well to kick him out they'd have to have a vote on it. I feel like the grounds for it, and the support for the vote as far as the statements from various chapters are compelling enough to put it to a vote. If national does vote and don't get 2/3rds then it's whatever, it's over and done with.
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Aug 9, 2017 22:33
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I'd be shocked if it didn't get to that point, but right now we're not there yet. We've not even gotten statements from the NPC or from him specifically.
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Aug 9, 2017 22:40
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There needs to be an official document dictating what the range of his involvement was. There's that email that was quoted but that's nothing official afiak
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Aug 9, 2017 22:44
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I realized that I needed to take a step back from things and wait for something beyond mad nude tweets to make an actual decision hth
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Aug 9, 2017 22:53
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Business Gorillas posted:I realized that I needed to take a step back from things and wait for something beyond mad nude tweets to make an actual decision hth wisdom here
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Aug 9, 2017 22:59
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Well my friend is an organizer and got a really lovely finger wagging e-mail from two old guard national folks, with basically every bad fallacious take on the situation. I don't think it's indicative of the national's direction, but it's still not a good sign.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:12
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Loving Life Partner posted:I seriously don't understand the hand waving of this guy obviously deliberately concealing his cop union work in order to have a better shot at a leadership position, that's the whole problem. If he gets bounced out of national, there's another person with a super extensive history organizing ready to take their place who is a person of color AND hasn't organized cop unions. This guy isn't the loving Usain Bolt of organizing, there are plenty of great people in the mix with exhaustive histories of good work. If enough of your chapters are demanding he step down based on his shadiness, especially the shadiness of this type, then put it to a vote and, live or die by it, and then move the hell on, dang. I'm not trying to hand wave anything here. But there is not much information out yet. He hasn't even had a chance to say anything in his defense and people are already smearing the entire Austin chapter as police collaborators. I think if people who have had involvement with reactionary institutions like police unions want to leave them and be a part of a socialist organization that is a good thing. They shouldn't have to be afraid that they will be rejected simply because of their past. I'm not convinced he did anything shady just by talking about the positive aspects of his career when trying to get people to vote for him.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:17
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Loving Life Partner posted:Well my friend is an organizer and got a really lovely finger wagging e-mail from two old guard national folks, with basically every bad fallacious take on the situation. I don't think it's indicative of the national's direction, but it's still not a good sign. Tbh considering what dsa was doing before the surge (lol) vs after, I don't give a hot gently caress about "old guard" and immediately ignore people that try to pull that card on me
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Aug 9, 2017 23:29
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Loving Life Partner posted:I seriously don't understand the hand waving of this guy obviously deliberately concealing his cop union work in order to have a better shot at a leadership position, that's the whole problem. If he gets bounced out of national, there's another person with a super extensive history organizing ready to take their place who is a person of color AND hasn't organized cop unions. This guy isn't the loving Usain Bolt of organizing, there are plenty of great people in the mix with exhaustive histories of good work. If enough of your chapters are demanding he step down based on his shadiness, especially the shadiness of this type, then put it to a vote and, live or die by it, and then move the hell on, dang. either way, a little bit of solidarity should be the standard within a socialist organisation and this public sharpening of knives is distasteful.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:33
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Helping to organize police unions is bad, full stop period, there's no uhh, wiggle room here from a leftist perspective, if you wanna make hay about this point, go join the Democratic party or something. That being said, you can do A Bad, like organizing a cop union, or being a cop, or military service and depart from those positions, but if you're going to seek leadership roles in a socialist organization, it'd be a very good idea to make people aware of that history, and denounce it. I think everyone is pissed off with good reason. Even if he had been explicit about his organizing past and gotten elected it'd still have been an issue and I imagine there would still have been calls for his stepping down, just maybe not as surprised/upset and more principled.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:57
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i can understand why people are pissed he lied his way onto the dsa npc and now has his hands on levers of unlimited wealth, access, and power
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Aug 9, 2017 23:58
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Loving Life Partner posted:Helping to organize police unions is bad, full stop period this isn't a universal physical law you dork. Slanderer has issued a correction as of 00:07 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 00:03
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Slanderer posted:this isn't a universal physical law you dork Yes it is? The police are bad, and their unions actively fight against reforms and accountability for abuse, and initiatives to address racism and other forms of oppression. it's mostly because the police as a whole are bad and thus so are there representative bodies, but still.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:06
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Loving Life Partner posted:Helping to organize police unions is bad, full stop period, there's no uhh, wiggle room here from a leftist perspective, acab and most cop unions are mainly used to defend cops when they shoot black people, but it's not like theoretically a cop union can't be good - if they focus on workers rights, protecting whistleblowers, pushing back against all those bad law enforcement policies out there, whatever.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:09
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R. Mute posted:why These would be in contradiction with each other, because part of that would also be advocating for massive reductions in police forces; i.e. abolition. It's cool that the inability to get over bullshit like "cops are working class too" might be what breaks good will towards DSA from a lot of the other left and activist orgs after they've done massive amounts of effort to fix up the DSA into something that isn't a book club for left-leaning dems.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:11
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I dunno what to say to you other than there's a home for you in the democratic party and you're not a socialist. Like this is settled and done business for anyone on the left. Cops are the enemy of the proletariat and the working class at nearly every juncture in the chain of exploitation, especially and particularly when they agitate for their rights, look at Standing Rock, look at the demonstrations being bust up about AHCA. "ACAB, but" is the dumbest way I've ever seen to start a sentence trying to appeal to "the good things people can do for cops"
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Aug 10, 2017 00:12
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Loving Life Partner posted:Yes it is? The police are bad, and their unions actively fight against reforms and accountability for abuse, and initiatives to address racism and other forms of oppression. it's mostly because the police as a whole are bad and thus so are there representative bodies, but still. yes, the police unions do lovely things that benefits themselves. so do teachers unions, so do auto worker unions. "but," you say, "cops are different because they are the brutal fist of capital?" put down the book nerd, because cops are the enforcers of our lovely society, which currently serves capital. we are currently working to change who and what our government serves, and what our society is about---the purpose and the purview of the police change along with that. they do not exist in a vacuum to bow to capital, they bow to us (and if they dont, we're going to loving make them bow). the alternative is revolutionary politics, which is the purview of dweebs in functioning states and anti-intellectuals in collapsed states.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:15
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uhh good luck with the entryism i guess lol
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Aug 10, 2017 00:18
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 : "were cops in the soviet union enemies of the proletariat" : "no because they were actually militia and thus not cops
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Aug 10, 2017 00:18
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Loving Life Partner posted:I dunno what to say to you other than there's a home for you in the democratic party and you're not a socialist. Like this is settled and done business for anyone on the left. Cops are the enemy of the proletariat and the working class at nearly every juncture in the chain of exploitation, especially and particularly when they agitate for their rights, look at Standing Rock, look at the demonstrations being bust up about AHCA. "ACAB, but" is the dumbest way I've ever seen to start a sentence trying to appeal to "the good things people can do for cops" Hypothetically, if anyone on the npc was involved in the democratic party in the past and didn't explicitly declare it do you think that's worthy of condemnation as well?
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Aug 10, 2017 00:18
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Slanderer posted:
The USSR was a transitional mess after revolution that devolved into state capitalism and isn't really a framework for any kind of movement going forward, but good job tilting at that strawman.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:19
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Loving Life Partner posted:I dunno what to say to you other than there's a home for you in the democratic party and you're not a socialist. Like this is settled and done business for anyone on the left. Cops are the enemy of the proletariat and the working class at nearly every juncture in the chain of exploitation, especially and particularly when they agitate for their rights, look at Standing Rock, look at the demonstrations being bust up about AHCA. "ACAB, but" is the dumbest way I've ever seen to start a sentence trying to appeal to "the good things people can do for cops" Glad you can speak for everyone.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:19
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It's a real shame that being an actor of the state unpersons you so when you are exploited by the state to provide labor and value you are not compassioned with basic human rights. It is equally shameful that in the event of possibly showing compassion* towards those rights that unions can fight for that you are unpersoned as well. *to the extent of what information is known on the extent of their participation at the time (which is practically not much)
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Aug 10, 2017 00:22
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I don't speak for everyone, but I'm echoing pretty much everyone on the left who is taking a Marxist/socialist approach to this issue, which typically you wanna do if you're a socialist. If you're still married to the concept that cops serve people and not the liberal empire/capitalist/landlord class, and that you can somehow snatch the apparatuses of the liberal state and bend them to your will rather than needing to deconstruct them and build them anew, I got like, 3 or 4 reading suggestions for you and historical examples of where that failed terribly (the USSR being one of them lol). Combating false consciousness is hard, but dang who the hell likes cops and who wouldn't jump at the chance to hate their guts given solid theory and historical reason to do so  ThndrShk2k posted:It's a real shame that being an actor of the state unpersons you so when you are exploited by the state to provide labor and value you are not compassioned with basic human rights. Every minute you "protect and serve" liberal property owners by enforcing systems of exploitation, oppression, harm and death you're literally an enemy of the loving people. This is the most bullshit take I've ever seen, even in a thread of watery socdems.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:25
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Loving Life Partner posted:I don't speak for everyone, but I'm echoing pretty much everyone on the left who is taking a Marxist/socialist approach to this issue, which typically you wanna do if you're a socialist. If you're still married to the concept that cops serve people and not the liberal empire/capitalist/landlord class, and that you can somehow snatch the apparatuses of the liberal state and bend them to your will rather than needing to deconstruct them and build them anew, I got like, 3 or 4 reading suggestions for you and historical examples of where that failed terribly (the USSR being one of them lol). you will never build a mass movement or sway anything but a fraction of voters in the united states do you want to win, or do you want to cling to a very rigid praxis?
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Aug 10, 2017 00:27
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Loving Life Partner posted:I don't speak for everyone, but I'm echoing pretty much everyone on the left who is taking a Marxist/socialist approach to this issue, which typically you wanna do if you're a socialist. If you're still married to the concept that cops serve people and not the liberal empire/capitalist/landlord class, and that you can somehow snatch the apparatuses of the liberal state and bend them to your will rather than needing to deconstruct them and build them anew, I got like, 3 or 4 reading suggestions for you and historical examples of where that failed terribly (the USSR being one of them lol). Then why don't you lead with that and let people make their own loving decisions instead of running around like a MAGA idiot talking about brown people, rear end in a top hat?
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Aug 10, 2017 00:28
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If you want a Marxist approach am I to assume I was misinformed in my earlier search regarding this subject?ThndrShk2k posted:https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/895115863103352833 ThndrShk2k has issued a correction as of 00:32 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 00:28
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i don't think anyone disagrees the criminal justice system in this country needs to be reworked. this is an achievable goal! but to say that police won't exist as they currently do in that better future just because they're not arresting drug users or sex workers is silly---they're still just be cops. we had cops before the war on drugs, guys. is the Fraternal Order of Police a hosed up union? hell yes it is. Is it the only possible cop union? of course not. other ones exist right now.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:29
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Tercio posted:you will never build a mass movement or sway anything but a fraction of voters in the united states I don't have to sway anyone, the point of the Marxist critique of capital is that the system is exploitative and destined to destroy itself, this has been an ongoing process in the United States for the past 100 years. There'll be uprisings and insurrection when things get bad enough, leftists just have to point everyone in the right direction. The system cannot correct itself and it cannot help but drive wages/the working class into the dirt until it collapses or is destroyed. Even if some social democrat party wins a modicum of power running on reforms (which is literally impossible because of the way electoral politics are structured and biased against radical reformation), without a true reckoning for the basis of class based antagonism and the capitalist mode of production all it does bribe the proletariat in America to forestall revolution with bloody capital extracted from the developing world (UBI, Universal healthcare). Many on the left were heartened by the convention, because between Momentum and Praxis' run of the NPC it seemed like the org was taking some big leaping bounds leftward, but apparently it's not he case, I'onno.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:32
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Loving Life Partner posted:in a thread of watery socdems. lol, best of luck in the next leadership contest for your jacobin reading group your movement's not going anywhere
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Aug 10, 2017 00:32
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I Am A Robot posted:I 100% agree with this and I find people's propensity to form firm conclusions before details are investigated and confirmed to be both disturbing and unsurprising. It's surprisingly easy for things to appear one way and in actuality be another. What's the source on this? I'd like to share it, if this is more than just a copy/paste
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Aug 10, 2017 00:33
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Loving Life Partner posted:I don't speak for everyone, but I'm echoing pretty much everyone on the left who is taking a Marxist/socialist approach to this issue, which typically you wanna do if you're a socialist. tell me, how did the 2016 presidential elections change your life
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Aug 10, 2017 00:40
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crop tops not cops
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Aug 10, 2017 00:40
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Lot of cops in this thread
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Aug 10, 2017 00:43
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Strangelet Wave posted:Regardless of your position on the ACAB question we all know it's an important matter worth debating openly and transparently and before the election, not after. But there's never been any indication he'd be supportive of police unions. It's just something from his past. I don't think there's anything deceptive about not mentioning that if support for police unions isn't actually his position.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:43
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100 degrees Calcium posted:Lot of cops in this thread the dsa leadership log on?
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Aug 10, 2017 00:46
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