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100 degrees Calcium posted:Lot of cops in this thread We're all coprades here.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:47
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R. Mute posted:i think this was the biggest give away that you're p new to the whole socialism thing because you're assuming there's a consensus on anything lol
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Aug 10, 2017 00:47
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100 degrees Calcium posted:Lot of cops in this thread im in ur meeting, eating all your foodz
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Aug 10, 2017 00:53
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the thought that anything but collective action will lead to the end of capitalism is as naive as thinking that your personal boycott of starbucks is meaningful in any way or that you having a vegetable patch doesn't implicate you in the exploitation of the non-western world by the west. a cop is a cop and all cops are bastards, there's no doubt about that. but if a cop can kill the cop inside his head, he's more than welcome to join the cause. if the cops in question are shooting black kids and gleefully breaking up protests, that's another matter, but ultimately we're all tainted in a way and there's no way to disengage from the system without destroying it first. you can argue there's a difference between actively and passively participating, that's true, but most cops generally haven't achieved the level of class consciousness to get with that and i assume most join up to stop murders and write tickets, not to enforce the capitalist regime. really, this idea that all cops are tainted and are automatically footsoldiers of the capitalist regime by choice sounds very... liberal to me.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:55
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No liberal. No Liberal. you're the liberal.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:57
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100 degrees Calcium posted:No liberal. No Liberal. you're the liberal. .. . . a trot!!
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Aug 10, 2017 01:00
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all cats are beautiful
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Aug 10, 2017 01:01
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You're echoing nothing but your own empty skull. Police exist to maintain order, something literally every civil society needs, socialist or otherwise. Abolishing the police is utopianism, marxism is scientific socialism.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:03
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R. Mute posted:really, this idea that all cops are tainted and are automatically footsoldiers of the capitalist regime by choice sounds very... liberal to me. It doesn't have to be with full knowledge and by choice obviously, but their ignorance to class dynamics doesn't change the fact that their job is to aid in oppression and exploitation, and their unions are structured to shield them and guard against reforms. If they attain some semblance of class consciousness I'd imagine they'd stop being law enforcement, if you look at the military veteran's caucus for DSA, their messaging is amazingly crafted to acknowledge their past as part of the imperialist military and literally nobody gives them poo poo (they've also called for this person to step down). The issue with this NPC guy is NOT taking the pains to disclose his past organizing. I'm not saying ex cops and ex military can't be leftists, I am saying active duty military and cops are tools of the liberal empire and kill/oppress people to protect private property and capital, and their unions aide them materially in this. This is a FAIRLY NONCONTROVERSIAL stance. rudatron posted:You're echoing nothing but your own empty skull. Police exist to maintain order, something literally every civil society needs, socialist or otherwise. Abolishing the police is utopianism, marxism is scientific socialism. Actually it's very wiggly at times and crafted to be so, writings range from utopian, to scientific, to revolutionary to reformist, mostly because Mario & Luigi were more concerned about giving people the right framework to attack capital and not dictate to them what should exist after the fall of capitalism 
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Aug 10, 2017 01:05
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I think the consensus most people not on twitter (or here) seem to be reaching is actually p good, and it isn't Fetonte is a cop and all cops must be purged due to the taint of capital. it's just unfortunate it's surrounded by very online opinions, many of whom are openly hostile to the DSA Slanderer posted:i don't think anyone disagrees the criminal justice system in this country needs to be reworked. this is an achievable goal! I love that this wet fart of a hot take keeps showing up police=! law enforcement to say that police must exist in future is as dumb as saying capitalism must exist (hell capitalism is an older institution) rudatron posted:You're echoing nothing but your own empty skull. Police exist to maintain order, something literally every civil society needs, socialist or otherwise. Abolishing the police is utopianism, marxism is scientific socialism. oh good. I guess at least you've moved beyond the stage of "this is how you should talk to normies" and admitting it's your own knee-jerk reaction Minty has issued a correction as of 01:10 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 01:07
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ThndrShk2k posted:If you want a Marxist approach am I to assume I was misinformed in my earlier search regarding this subject?
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Aug 10, 2017 01:08
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democratic supercops of america
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Aug 10, 2017 01:09
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Loving Life Partner posted:If they attain some semblance of class consciousness I'd imagine they'd stop being law enforcement
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Aug 10, 2017 01:09
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Maybe a cop or military personnel joining a DSA reading group is the step they needed to take to gain class consciousness....?
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Aug 10, 2017 01:14
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whats the analog term for red-pilling but when you convert someone to socialism (sorry comrades the MGTOWs already stole your color)
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Aug 10, 2017 01:15
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Maybe! I'm not even saying bar cops or active military, all I've said that the guy did wrong is not disclosing his past, which is pretty much what everyone is annoyed with from the statements I've seen
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Aug 10, 2017 01:15
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rudatron posted:You're echoing nothing but your own empty skull. Police exist to maintain order, something literally every civil society needs, socialist or otherwise. Abolishing the police is utopianism, marxism is scientific socialism. You have, as usual, no loving historical conception and I wonder why you even bother trying. Police forces are an invention of the late 18th/early 19th century that literally came with capitalism. They exist to enforce the bourgeois order from the get go.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:16
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:but let's at least recognize police unions as they exist right now for the vile, regressive organizations that they are.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:19
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:90% of thread disagrees:Loving Life Partner posted:This is a FAIRLY NONCONTROVERSIAL stance. thanks conrad
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Aug 10, 2017 01:23
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Loving Life Partner posted:Maybe! I'm not even saying bar cops or active military, all I've said that the guy did wrong is not disclosing his past, which is pretty much what everyone is annoyed with from the statements I've seen
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Aug 10, 2017 01:24
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R. Mute posted:again, it's not a struggle session. *hides fuckbarrel* it isn't??
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Aug 10, 2017 01:25
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ThndrShk2k posted:Should we accept how they are or influence change? You're free to give it a try, but I can't think of a bigger waste of time.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:26
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MrWilderheap posted:But there's never been any indication he'd be supportive of police unions. It's just something from his past. I don't think there's anything deceptive about not mentioning that if support for police unions isn't actually his position. The DSA Veterans WG statement has what I think is the best take on the matter. Some of them committed actual atrocities in foreign countries while serving the US imperial war machine—that's not just something from their past, it's an important part, and they're all up front and transparent about it. Their position is not in support of imperialism, but they don't avoid mentioning their past because their past informs that position. They certainly don't avoid mentioning potentially salient episodes from their past when seeking leadership positions. Even if Fetonte didn't think his police union work was relevant, many in the DSA membership certainly do, and an NPC candidate should know that and address that head-on.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:26
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R. Mute posted:if only we had an organisation that could reach them, connect with them... how am i supposed to get RTs from doing this?
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Aug 10, 2017 01:27
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unbutthurtable posted::90% of thread disagrees: this thread is almost as bad as twitter with the hot takes and doesn't seem to be representative of the conversations DSA people are having, so I'd take it with a grain of salt idunno about "non controversial" but "no active duty cops/military, yea ex-cops/veterans" is a very common sentiment, and imo being wary of active duty is a fairly rational stand to take, since those organizations are designed to oppose socialist orgs and have historically been used to do so, and members of them would have mixed loyalties at best
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Aug 10, 2017 01:27
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Agnosticnixie posted:You have, as usual, no loving historical conception and I wonder why you even bother trying. Police forces are an invention of the late 18th/early 19th century that literally came with capitalism. They exist to enforce the bourgeois order from the get go. This is just...wrong. China had dedicated law enforcement officials appointed by local magistrates like 2700 years ago.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:28
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This is just...wrong. China had dedicated law enforcement officials appointed by local magistrates like 2700 years ago. Yeah, ever play Total War: Rome 2? Ever heard of VIGILES? Checkmate.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:30
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unbutthurtable posted:Yeah, ever play Total War: Rome 2? Ever heard of VIGILES? I only play the good Total War games that have ninjas or orcs in them
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Aug 10, 2017 01:31
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Minty posted:this thread is almost as bad as twitter with the hot takes and doesn't seem to be representative of the conversations DSA people are having, so I'd take it with a grain of salt I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, I'm disagreeing with the idea that anyone can just spout off an idea and claim it's non-controversially the proper DSA position and that anyone who doesn't agree shouldn't be in the organization.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:31
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I only play the good Total War games that ninjas or orcs in them I was on your side here, I was just too lazy to do the quote correctly.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:32
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I strongly urge all those upset about cop guy to connect with their local chapter and release a statement. These statements will pressure the national and help the people up there who want to get rid of the cop to get rid of the cop. We can do this, online is good, actually, but a coordinated statement from your general membership and/or steering or organizing cmte is better. Look up the left caucus' statement for a template.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:35
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the soviet union existed for 7 decades yet still had cops for the entirety of that? I don't understand the idea that people will ever stop murdering, stealing, raping, and damaging communal property. that has nothing to do with capitalism, it's just human nature, that's the kind of poo poo we get up to. also not to mention people committing thought-crimes against the state, somebody has to arrest them
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Aug 10, 2017 01:36
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And again, the issue with this cop is that he deliberately obfuscated his coppitude, not that all cops are zombies. They are, but if they are completely transparent about their turn to socialism they can be here (although I'd never vote for one to NPC). The deliberate obfuscation of coppy's past proves he isn't willing to reconcile with it.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:38
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This is just...wrong. China had dedicated law enforcement officials appointed by local magistrates like 2700 years ago. The NYPD, an unbroken chain of service since ancient China. Impermanent posted:I strongly urge all those upset about cop guy to connect with their local chapter and release a statement. These statements will pressure the national and help the people up there who want to get rid of the cop to get rid of the cop. We can do this, online is good, actually, but a coordinated statement from your general membership and/or steering or organizing cmte is better. Look up the left caucus' statement for a template. please don't pressure the DSA into having knee-jerk reactions where we cannibalized ourselves for the entertainment of loving twitter liberals. Impermanent posted:And again, the issue with this cop is that he deliberately obfuscated his coppitude, not that all cops are zombies. They are, but if they are completely transparent about their turn to socialism they can be here (although I'd never vote for one to NPC). The deliberate obfuscation of coppy's past proves he isn't willing to reconcile with it. he's not a cop you idiot Trumps Baby Hands posted:the soviet union existed for 7 decades yet still had cops for the entirety of that? I don't understand the idea that people will ever stop murdering, stealing, raping, and damaging communal property. that has nothing to do with capitalism, it's just human nature, that's the kind of poo poo we get up to. also not to mention people committing thought-crimes against the state, somebody has to arrest them thank you for this. no one has brought up that there is a crime thing so therefore cops
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Aug 10, 2017 01:39
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Aug 10, 2017 01:42
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lol
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Aug 10, 2017 01:42
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can anyone hook a comrade up with the rocket chat details? and is it more or less sane than twitter?
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Aug 10, 2017 01:52
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The reason we're arguing why cops = ?good/bad? is because Fetonte helped a law enforcement union (CLEAT) do union stuff, along with the great Texas CWA (Which CLEAT is part of) It's not specifically about Fetonte being a cop, but more of if you help law enforcement do union stuff to be less bad, do you get cop cooties and are as bad as a cop yourself now? If he was an active duty cop that would be pretty weird If he was a former cop and didn't reveal it that would be dishonest If he was a former CWA union guy who helped out unions in his state for better worker rights and CLEAT is a union that needed the magic of socialism/unionism, is that bad? Now I know there are arguments that it was dishonest for him not to put in that CLEAT was part of his work, but we do not know the full extent of how much and with what in regards to him working with them. It'd be pretty embarrassing to kick a guy out to find out he was helping with potential reform issues, even if minor in influence, just because of not liking cops. ThndrShk2k has issued a correction as of 02:01 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 01:52
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Iridium posted:can anyone hook a comrade up with the rocket chat details? from what i've heard, if you don't like twitter you're in for a bad time
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Aug 10, 2017 01:59
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cop lied thread died
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Aug 10, 2017 02:00
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