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Larry Parrish posted:Just living is labor IMO. posting is the greatest labor of all. marx was a prolific shitposter in his day.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:16
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cops that don't bust heads over drug offenses and profile brown people are basically unrecognizable enough to be something out of sci-fi tho
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Aug 10, 2017 16:21
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not that big of a stretch. you can do it in one intuitive leap! consider explaining single payer healthcare to someone: "you know medicare? well what if everyone had medicare? thats single payer healthcare" apply the same thing to police: "you know how cops are in rich white suburbs? well what if they were like that everywhere."
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Aug 10, 2017 16:28
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Slanderer posted:apply the same thing to police: I thought you were calling for a positive change! Jokes aside I get that you mean "You know how cops are nice and friendly to white suburbanites and basically part of the community, what if the commune enforcement represented the people and provided an equal and accountable service to all.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:31
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Larry Parrish posted:Maybe this is MANSPLAINING but I'd rather continue to call everyone a worker or labourer than use more inclusive but more meaningless terms. ya im not sure what's best workers doesn't include the disabled or unemployed comrades is, im told, going to scare everyone right of stalin away brothers and sisters is bad because of non binary people like what's left
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Aug 10, 2017 16:31
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big black turnout posted:ya im not sure what's best Disabled people still are able to provide labor in some function, be it a service or physical. Even if they do not work their significant commodity they have is their labor potential. Unemployed people are not unemployed because they lack the capacity for labor, but because they don't have an outlet for that labor to transfer value into a necessary commodity (such as food and housing) It's important to make sure that the working class knows that they are not together because they are employed, but they are together because the greatest value they have is their ability to do work, regardless of how their physical capacity can be limited.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:36
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big black turnout posted:ya im not sure what's best we're all just folk now
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Aug 10, 2017 16:43
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ThndrShk2k posted:Overreactionary towards any sort of minority? I think it's important to be able to say that the thing you are fighting for is real and achievable, and I think this requires that it exists (at least in part) somewhere already. Trying to sell someone on utopian archo communsim is going to be completely alienating unless they have a large body of Policing reform is no different. Loving Life Partner's anarcho-primitivist navelgazing is not really convincing or relatable to anyone who is not already pretty deep in, since it's so disconnected from everyday life. But saying that you want police to be better, that you want them to serve the community, and that you want to decriminalize non-harmful things is something that you can convince normal people about! There are real world examples you can point to. I couldn't imagine trying to convince anyone that decriminalizing drug use is a net benefit to society without the data to back it up---it flies in the face of what we're taught, either explicitly or implicitly through culture (such as portrayals of drug users in media). You can start to piece together a better theory of policing based on existing examples---they should not carry firearms (like in the UK), they should be good at helping old ladies get home (like in Norway), and they shouldn't be racist (like in [REDACTED]). None of this is revolutionary, and none of this is abolishing police as they currently exist.
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Aug 10, 2017 17:09
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Baby Babbeh posted:BDS, Afro Socialist Caucus, no revenue split for chapters, prioritizing monthly dues, national grievance process, no hard split from Democrats, police abolishment as an official plank, national focus on single payer and labor solidarity Cool. Thank you.
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Aug 10, 2017 17:22
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serious q does the DSA have a stance on gun ownership
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Aug 10, 2017 17:25
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bump_fn posted:Rest In Peace the dsa
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Aug 10, 2017 17:35
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Slanderer posted:This always seemed like a failed attempt to salvage the "abolition" label, because it's pretty much meaningless. If the police stop arresting people for nonviolent crimes, does that mean they no longer exist in their current form? Not really! They're still cops, doing cop stuff. If the police stop being so racist, does that mean they've completely changed? Nope, that's just an improvement, a way of making Better Cops. it's almost as if the DSA is saying there are large, systemic problems inherent to the structure of the police style of law enforcement, and that "reform" isn't enough
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Aug 10, 2017 17:39
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bump_fn posted:serious q does the DSA have a stance on gun ownership Honestly yeah I would also like to know the DSA's stance on gun ownership
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Aug 10, 2017 17:43
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You're mad that cops aren't "workers"? Heh, wonder how the disabled people they ripped from wheelchairs to arrest the other week feel about that. 
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Aug 10, 2017 17:44
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bump_fn posted:serious q does the DSA have a stance on gun ownership I think it's been completely avoided on the national level but my local (florida) chapter has been hanging out with Redneck Revolt people, it's probably not worth getting into since it's such a local cultural signifier
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Aug 10, 2017 17:44
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instead of police reform we need a police reboot. good thing is we already got the grim and gritty version out of the way and this time we can make a happy, colorful version
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Aug 10, 2017 17:45
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Minty posted:it's almost as if the DSA is saying there are large, systemic problems inherent to the structure of the police style of law enforcement, and that "reform" isn't enough it also seems like the actionable items in the Praxis statement on abolition are reforms. weird how that works!
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Aug 10, 2017 17:46
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While we still don't know the extent to his involvement, here's another good statement from a DSA group not condemning Fetonte, but still calling for resignation for his omission of the information as it bypass the democratic process. https://twitter.com/QueerDSA/status/895683908360187904 (Hasn't been reviewed by the NPCs who are also leaders in the group though)
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Aug 10, 2017 17:46
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Slanderer posted:it also seems like the actionable items in the Praxis statement on abolition are reforms. weird how that works! and the actionable items on capitalism abolition are reforms. I guess they aren't actually serious about this overthrowing capitalism thing
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Aug 10, 2017 17:48
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Is a paradigm shift abolition?
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Aug 10, 2017 17:51
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bump_fn posted:serious q does the DSA have a stance on gun ownership Not one that I've seen, and definitely not one passed as a priority at the recent convention. I strongly suspect that the kind of people who now dominate DSA membership range from the sort who think gun control is a strategically dead issue to the sort who think we should be subsidizing firearm purchase and training for the marginalized.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:05
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bump_fn posted:serious q does the DSA have a stance on gun ownership 
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Aug 10, 2017 18:06
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Yeah see this is what I was hoping to hear but I guess "no national platform" is better than "NYC and SF said no so no guns"
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Aug 10, 2017 18:13
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with the country being run by maga chuds i think taking a stance against firearms would be very unwise
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Aug 10, 2017 18:15
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The only society that arms for self defense would not be necessary is an utopian society that would be unachievable within many lifetimes. (if at all)
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Aug 10, 2017 18:24
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Can anyone point me to resources about what post-police law enforcement would look like? I've read/heard a lot about police abolition but not about what comes after aside from like empowered neighborhood watch groups.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:39
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Professor Bling posted:Yeah see this is what I was hoping to hear but I guess "no national platform" is better than "NYC and SF said no so no guns" Im from NYC and I say arm them all!
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Aug 10, 2017 18:49
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Professor Bling posted:Yeah see this is what I was hoping to hear but I guess "no national platform" is better than "NYC and SF said no so no guns" gently caress off. SF DSA is not anti-gun as a chapter.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:57
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fermun posted:gently caress off. SF DSA is not anti-gun as a chapter. Not really the point
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Aug 10, 2017 18:59
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liberalism within the DSA must be rooted and out and destroyed and a good litmus test to find the liberals is to bring up guns
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Aug 10, 2017 19:00
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 [img_skeleton_yikes.jpg]
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Aug 10, 2017 19:06
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fermun posted:gently caress off. SF DSA is not anti-gun as a chapter. hmmm maybe a dude asking about political stances on guns in a leftist org is gonna make assumptions about coastal ideals in heavily legislated states that tend to be overly represented in leftist orgs and is asking in order to rid himself of those assumptions if need be because he can't find the information elsewhere  but to change up and not be a dick for a minute, tone aside, thanks for letting me know that I'm wrong in my assumptions. I honestly didn't know and had an assumption based on living in the midwest and having spent only a year or so in monterey; I fully admit that statement was a poo poo assumption and I'm glad to have learned otherwise
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Aug 10, 2017 19:14
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what if we just had less guns tho
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Aug 10, 2017 19:18
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Slanderer posted:what if we just had less guns tho More guns but in the hands of leftists.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:19
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:
In the past few months Trump has done a lot to radicalize veterans (and radicalize active duty but that's harder to measure) against capitalism and the current status quo. It would be a mistake to give the rightwing/centrists ammo that the left is anti-military when the reality is anything but. Having a powerful military and robust system that protects workers are not mutually exclusive. EDIT: My gun position is I want to nationalize the entire arms industry
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Aug 10, 2017 19:21
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:More guns but in the hands of leftists. My kind of gun control.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:23
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Venom Snake posted:In the past few months Trump has done a lot to radicalize veterans (and radicalize active duty but that's harder to measure) against capitalism and the current status quo. It would be a mistake to give the rightwing/centrists ammo that the left is anti-military when the reality is anything but. Having a powerful military and robust system that protects workers are not mutually exclusive. a strong military supports the internationalist effort by allowing us to liberate our brothers and sisters abroad from the tyranny of capital
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Aug 10, 2017 19:25
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I'm a gun and I should have rights. Gun rights is human rights.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:26
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Venom Snake posted:In the past few months Trump has done a lot to radicalize veterans (and radicalize active duty but that's harder to measure) against capitalism and the current status quo. It would be a mistake to give the rightwing/centrists ammo that the left is anti-military when the reality is anything but. Having a powerful military and robust system that protects workers are not mutually exclusive. What about a gun position of requiring all able bodied persons to serve two years, then do militia service once a month until 45?
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Aug 10, 2017 19:26
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Question about the cultural signifiers associated with gun ownership (I live in NYC, if that's relevant): does it apply to all guns? I only ask because it seems to me that a lot of the "assault weapon" paranoia isn't really based all that much on the mechanics of certain types of weapons, but the doodads people put on them to make them look like they're military weapons. And if I'm perfectly fine with long guns for hunting and sporting and (at least in the case of shotguns) home defense in more rural areas, I can't be *too* upset by something that's mechanically similar. But that said, handguns, in terms of risk to society, seem to be more trouble than they're worth (to me, at least, but I'm not trying to convince people of that too seriously) due to their ease of transport and concealment and, to my understanding, are the real problem in terms of weapons accessibility in high crime areas. Anyway, I'm just curious about non-coastal leftist thoughts on the above, but I don't mean to open a can of words if people think this is unwise to even get into.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:27
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