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Elfgames posted:Which makes it hilarious that he was ever against DW because compared to D&D DW actually has way more rules about what a GM can and should do. Frank severely misunderstood (or maybe never noticed) that GM actions have to "follow the fiction" in PbtA games and it all spun out from there
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Aug 12, 2017 17:40
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hyphz posted:I can.. vaguely see an argument there? Shadowrun doesn't have magical transport spells though, they have cars, which cost money.
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Aug 12, 2017 17:40
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Any game without explicit rules against lifting yourself should allow sufficiently strong characters to fly.
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Aug 12, 2017 17:50
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Nuns with Guns posted:Frank severely misunderstood (or maybe never noticed) that GM actions have to "follow the fiction" in PbtA games and it all spun out from there
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Aug 12, 2017 18:05
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Frank thinks all of Onyx Path's products are "vaporware" because PoD and PDF don't count as real publishing. Yes, that doesn't make any goddamn sense even if you agree PoD "doesn't count." He thinks Rich Thomas is scamming everyone with Kickstarter to live a million-dollar lifestyle because he doesn't understand how production and fulfillment work. He has made the contention that Mummy: the Curse doesn't exist, because the "guest developer" KS reward means it is a fanfiction game written by fans who paid Onyx Path for the privilege. Dude has some pet issues.
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Aug 12, 2017 18:18
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That Old Tree posted:Frank thinks all of Onyx Path's products are "vaporware" because PoD and PDF don't count as real publishing. Yes, that doesn't make any goddamn sense even if you agree PoD "doesn't count." Explain to me why anyone would ever take him seriously? The more I hear about Frank the more it reads like the diary of a schizophrenic.
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Aug 12, 2017 18:21
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Kwyndig posted:Explain to me why anyone would ever take him seriously? The more I hear about Frank the more it reads like the diary of a schizophrenic. No one really does, anymore? If they ever did. There are like a dozen people left on his self-fellating forum who nod sagely when he goes on a tear, but I think his biggest claim to fame is being such a weird rear end in a top hat that people on other forums notice. He appears to have a good head for references, which is why his star shone brightest alongside D&D3. Plus he did some work on Shadowrun for a hot minute, and had some juicy deets on that one time Catalyst imploded.
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Aug 12, 2017 18:30
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hyphz posted:I can.. vaguely see an argument there? The argument isn't that mundane travel details shouldn't be glossed over. The argument is that because Shadowrun does not have rules about MPG or gas tanks or needing to refuel your car (as far as I can remember) using a car is mechanically better than a spell because spells have limitations in the form of strain and metaphysical fuel. Instead of casting fireball, ram your car into the narrow corridor and mow down all of the security guards. Instead of casting some spell to speed up, simply drive your car wherever you go. Which is still absolute loving nonsense because of two things: 1: as previously mentioned, there are rules for damaging items, your car is not eternal and indestructible. Money is still very much a resource in this game where you are broke and do illegal/quasi-legal poo poo for cash. 2: because there are no rules in regards to mileage and gas tanks, there is absolutely nothing stopping your GM from saying you are now out of fuel. He is putting the car on a pedestal despite many, many absent rules protecting him from the Magical Tea Party he describes. His premise is so sloppy and incoherent and contradictory of what it stands for, it's definitely not right but I can't even call it wrong because its not even in the same place as it qualifying as wrong, it's standing across the street from wrong sipping a smoothie and picking its nose. I can, however, accurately call it wildly stupid, which it definitely is. e: a friend has explained to me the whole Gridlink system thing and how some cars do run on ethanol so that's what I get for being angered and flying off the handle but the one I am mildly familiar with (4e) doesn't have rules for gas. Anyway. That kinda invalidates most of this post but I will firmly stand behind "you can lose your drat car". Vox Valentine fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 18:40
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Kwyndig posted:Explain to me why anyone would ever take him seriously? The more I hear about Frank the more it reads like the diary of a schizophrenic. If you take a look at the state of the world a dude who spends all his time and energy having dumb opinions about elfgames seems almost quaint by comparison. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 18:57
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As someone who backed Exalted 3E I definitely believed it was Vaporware for three years.
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Aug 12, 2017 19:40
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Evil Mastermind posted:I think I still have a quotes file somewhere full of Trollman's greatest hits, like how picking up a bow in 4e was houseruling (because monster default gear wasn't "real"), how being able to drive a car in Shadowrun was OP compared to magic (because you can just drive a car whenever you want and not worry about stuff like drain), and how you had to specifically make battleship armor immune to melee attacks to prevent players from kicking battleships to death. This is absolutely an amazing mental image.
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Aug 12, 2017 19:48
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That concern isn't without precedent in RPGs, it's just that the precedent is Kevin Siembieda making MDC for Rifts.
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Aug 12, 2017 20:01
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It's more the idea that the Rules are The Rules, and if there's nothing in the rules that says a ... Why do I still remember this poo poo?
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Aug 12, 2017 20:08
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It also came up in a Feng Shui 1E sourcebook- they made vehicles too easy to destroy with a particular kung fu style, because chase rules and driving weren't in the corebook. So when they added them, there was a sidebar specifically to address that power, as otherwise rules-as-written anyone with it could spend three chi and kick a Buro skyfortress to death.
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Aug 12, 2017 20:11
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He is proof that Newtons third law applies to RPG gamer's. An actual, equal and opposite reaction to the folk who think any games faults can be fixed by the application of a good GM.
remusclaw fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 20:22
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I'm still trying to get over the fact that his last name is "Trollman". On the internet. It's been years since grognards.txt and I still don't believe it.
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Aug 12, 2017 20:26
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Was he the one going on about how customer service is some kind of evil scheme Fred Hicks invented to trick people into buying his products?
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Aug 12, 2017 20:28
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Rand Brittain posted:Was he the one going on about how customer service is some kind of evil scheme Fred Hicks invented to trick people into buying his products? No, that was GMS.
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Aug 12, 2017 20:30
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Here's the original car thing
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Aug 12, 2017 20:32
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Oh, ok. It seems there that his argument is not so much "driving a car is overpowered compared to magic" but that "mages have to be much more powerful in modern settings than fantasy ones, because things that require magic in fantasy settings can be done relatively easily with technology in modern ones."
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Aug 12, 2017 20:40
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Trollman's whole thing boils down to his belief that all GMs are bastard evil GM types, and that the rules of a game exist to protect you from the GM's sinister plottings. The rules have to be as complete and close to the laws of physics of the setting as possible in order to give you the most leeway in defeating the GM and his attempts to control you. So like, a common complaint from his forums in 4e was that enemy rules were different from PC rules so you could no longer metagame (metagaming isn't just good to Trollman, it is a flat out necessary component in the war against the GM), and the literal example was "in 3.x if a tower just appears overnight I can use spellcraft and other skills and then look up spells to determine exactly how it was raised and when and all of it's details, but in 4e, all I can do is go inside and explore it!" He's legitimately insane, as is everyone who goes along with his philosophy.
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Aug 12, 2017 20:53
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He is also straightforwardly wrong, because for example the first 4E DMG goes into a lot of detail about the fact that enemy attack values and suchlike are presumed to be derived from like P% magic item bonuses, Q% feat bonuses, etc. such that a magic weapon will only improve a monster's damage by X instead of Y and so forth. I don't remember reading a single thing from him in the old grognards.txts thread about any system besides 3.X D&D that didn't contain at least one massive factual error or lie. 4E monsters do work like PCs... it's just that the inner workings of their character sheets are abstracted and they benefit from arbitrary ends-based custom powers generally assumed to be innate powers based on their origin. So for example there is no specific feat which grants a balor the ability to shoot fireballs at-will and if a tower appears overnight it could have been the work of a god or a superintelligent ant colony or a temporal paradox or, hell, a custom-designed magic spell made up by the DM that's the equivalent of a spell or feat in an as yet unreleased game supplement.
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Aug 12, 2017 21:02
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hyphz posted:Oh, ok. It seems there that his argument is not so much "driving a car is overpowered compared to magic" but that "mages have to be much more powerful in modern settings than fantasy ones, because things that require magic in fantasy settings can be done relatively easily with technology in modern ones." But that's not true either, it just betrays a fundamental lack of imagination on his part.
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Aug 12, 2017 22:03
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Or the fact that even if mages can't use technology, there's usually nothing stopping them from getting someone else to just drive the loving car.
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Aug 12, 2017 22:33
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Kwyndig posted:Or the fact that even if mages can't use technology, there's usually nothing stopping them from getting someone else to just drive the loving car. Sounds like things that potentially put you at the mercy of your GM! Remember, Frank's position is that characters need to be ENTIRELY self sufficient and ignore teamwork, because otherwise the GM might get'cha.
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Aug 12, 2017 22:43
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ProfessorCirno posted:Sounds like things that potentially put you at the mercy of your GM! That's the opposite of most RPGs goal. Hell that's the opposite of what most people consider to be good life goals. Why are you even playing games if you're not going to engage the other players???
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Aug 12, 2017 22:53
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There's a cool dude on the latest Fate anime that is a modern necromancer who dresses like a biker, uses a skeleton arm as a fax machine, shoots magically empowered fingers from a shotgun and on a wizard fight he had the stroke of genius of running over the enemy with a car after distracting her with a human heart grenade so maybe modern magic supplements should have this kind of stuff.
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Aug 12, 2017 23:18
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Someone make a loving decent Nasuverse RPG. I really like the idea of Mages being super assholes who are incredibly decadent and not that big of a deal now that the mystery that powers magic has been completely supplanted by technology.
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Aug 12, 2017 23:19
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Hostile V posted:
I feel like I wouldn't want to play with a GM who wouldn't just tell us to gently caress off in this situation.
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Aug 12, 2017 23:34
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Kwyndig posted:That's the opposite of most RPGs goal. Hell that's the opposite of what most people consider to be good life goals. Why are you even playing games if you're not going to engage the other players??? You mistakenly believe they actually play games.
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Aug 12, 2017 23:42
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Plutonis posted:Liesmith is close to finishing that one actually On this forum?
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Aug 12, 2017 23:51
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Kwyndig posted:Or the fact that even if mages can't use technology, there's usually nothing stopping them from getting someone else to just drive the loving car. I don't think it's "mages can't use technology", it's that a spell that lets you move really fast is a lot less valuable in a world where cars are available than in ones where they are not. Of course, he seems to make a silent assumption that mages have to be more powerful than anyone else. As compared to Unknown Armies where it says "yea, magic is kinda weak compared to guns, but who the heck is going to persuade the cops that they were attacked with magic?"
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Aug 13, 2017 01:11
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Kwyndig posted:Explain to me why anyone would ever take him seriously? The more I hear about Frank the more it reads like the diary of a schizophrenic. He had a critical eye towards 3.X at a time when there otherwise wasn't a lot of such things going on. He and some other people from TGD also did the "Tome" series of homebrew to try to fix 3.X's issues. As That Old Tree said, Trollman has a bunch of hang-ups, and what he considers to be a good game is filtered through a very specific lens that sometimes isn't that consistent, but, for example, he's correctly diagnosed Pathfinder as not being that good, and 5th Edition as not being that good, when the standard of discourse everywhere else is "ooohhh ahhh PF/5e are the best RPGs everrrr it's so balanced!"
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Aug 13, 2017 01:14
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Kwyndig posted:That's the opposite of most RPGs goal. Hell that's the opposite of what most people consider to be good life goals. Why are you even playing games if you're not going to engage the other players??? I've known two guys along that sort of way of thinking in real life over the years, and both of them pretty much ended up getting blacklisted from all the groups at the FLGS that were around in each case. One got outright banned from the FLGS altogether, though I think that was over some tantrum he threw at a Magic tournament. It seemed pretty clear that most if not all of those same sorts demanding the masses rise up against the tyranny of GMs back in the day on RPG.net were similarly not getting lots of game invites offline.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:46
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hyphz posted:I don't think it's "mages can't use technology", it's that a spell that lets you move really fast is a lot less valuable in a world where cars are available than in ones where they are not. Again, this notion requires a lot of assumptions in order to arrive at that particular conclusion. It's not at all difficult to envision a type of "move places real fast" spell that is actually quite useful and valuable in a modern/near-future world where automobiles and air transport abounds, and yet still has enough restrictions and drawbacks in its use to not simply be an unqualified better option than just driving somewhere. "Magic has to be more powerful than everything else, because" is a premise that should always be viewed with the utmost suspicion imo, unless you're talking about a game where being powerful rear end in a top hat wizards is the main driving point (Mage, Ars Magica). Desiden posted:It seemed pretty clear that most if not all of those same sorts demanding the masses rise up against the tyranny of GMs back in the day on RPG.net were similarly not getting lots of game invites offline. Let's be real here though, for every Frank Trollman there's an equal and opposite grog out there complaining about entitled players and jerking off to stuff like Tucker's Kobolds.
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Aug 13, 2017 06:09
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ProfessorCirno posted:Trollman's whole thing boils down to his belief that all GMs are bastard evil GM types, and that the rules of a game exist to protect you from the GM's sinister plottings. The rules have to be as complete and close to the laws of physics of the setting as possible in order to give you the most leeway in defeating the GM and his attempts to control you. So like, a common complaint from his forums in 4e was that enemy rules were different from PC rules so you could no longer metagame (metagaming isn't just good to Trollman, it is a flat out necessary component in the war against the GM), and the literal example was "in 3.x if a tower just appears overnight I can use spellcraft and other skills and then look up spells to determine exactly how it was raised and when and all of it's details, but in 4e, all I can do is go inside and explore it!" I'm pretty sure the dude's just intolerable to have at a table, so all of his experiences with GMs are bad because they can't stand him.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:05
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Is there any evidence Trollman has taken a turn in the GMs seat and what kind of GM he is?
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Aug 13, 2017 13:20
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LongDarkNight posted:Is there any evidence Trollman has taken a turn in the GMs seat and what kind of GM he is? I think it's safe to assume he's DMed for his friends. I don't imagine he'd be a terrible DM, albeit details-oriented.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:15
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On the contrary, I imagine he'd be the worst kind of “gotcha“ DM, precisely because he feels the players have all the necessary tools to counter him at their disposal, and if they don't use them, tough.
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Aug 13, 2017 16:00
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With how concerned he is in avoiding DM dickery, he doesn't seem like someone that would deliberately gently caress players over. Accidentally doing that by assuming people will be as analytic about each situation as him seems pretty likely at some point though.
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Aug 13, 2017 16:16
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