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Red Baron posted:You got me, my napkin math law isn't perfect yet. Writing laws that correctly mirror the intentions behind them and cannot be abused is hard even for experts, and that's a major point here - no need to get butthurt as in HURR, HURR, YOU GOT ME, YOU DO IT THEN.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:56
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it's fairly easy to identify a nazi.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:57
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Science has not yet discovered anything smaller than how surprised I am by this.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:57
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Red Baron posted:Americans hate communism with a fiery passion so who the gently caress cares if no one can hold a communist rally? Communism is an academic idea at this point, not a political system we'll ever have. Wow, nailed it. The only way to counter right wing domestic terrorism is to... outlaw non-violent gatherings of leftists? https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312?lang=en
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Aug 13, 2017 13:58
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You can write the most specific laws you want, the whole issues of prejudice is that you can't force authorities to enforce them equally. See 'tough on crime' laws and the War On Drugs. The police routinely lie about what's a 'peaceful protest' and what's a 'riot' so they can brutalise who they like.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:58
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screamin and creamin posted:Writing laws that correctly mirror the intentions behind them and cannot be abused is hard even for experts, and that's a major point here - no need to get butthurt as in HURR, HURR, YOU GOT ME, YOU DO IT THEN. the experts have been very happy to let nazis and the KKK have an exception black panthers are not afforded the same free speech protections one might say that's because the experts were at least somewhat sympathetic to the first two movements
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Aug 13, 2017 13:58
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the word "dumb" got me shadowbanned on twitter but nazis can tweet with abandon. what a world.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:58
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Red Baron posted:You got me, my napkin math law isn't perfect yet. MAKE IT MORE SPECIFIC TO NAZIS THEN! That's the beauty of this approach, you just keep on refining it until it's obsidian-edged. You can't. That's the whole loving point. Nearly any hate speech language beyond an explicit ban on Nazi ideology is open to expanded interpretations, and an explicit ban on Nazi ideology would be ineffective because you'd still get white supremacist garbage that avoids looking "too Nazi". Condiv posted:black panthers are not afforded the same free speech protections They are, legally, and should be represented, but they got hosed over in the past.
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Aug 13, 2017 13:59
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How come Germany has effective anti nazi laws if it's impossible?
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Aug 13, 2017 14:00
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america is exceptional[ly dumb].
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Aug 13, 2017 14:01
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Red Baron posted:No, because they don't meet the criteria, and just insisting that gay people or BLM are like Nazis does not suddenly make it so. They don't behave the same and so the law would not catch them. What, we gonna appoint some loving cyber brains in goo who carry out judgement on these things and are always 100% accurate? Or is it going to be interpreted by judges who are going to be appointed by Republicans, and have a vested interest in using these laws to silence all political groups the Right doesn't like? THe supreme court argued that unlimited political donations don't constitute bribery, you really think they wouldn't rule that republicans are not nazis but democrats always are? quote:e. I would love to see the GOP try to find a genocide done in the name of any of those.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:01
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screamin and creamin posted:Writing laws that correctly mirror the intentions behind them and cannot be abused is hard even for experts, and that's a major point here - no need to get butthurt as in HURR, HURR, YOU GOT ME, YOU DO IT THEN. Listen, my morning IV of meth and freedom hasn't kicked in and I'm still a little snippy, bad. I just don't believe there's not something that can be done to make the current position Nazis hold a little more uncomfortable. It's plain as day that their ideologies bring nothing to the table and may in fact take away. It seems to me like we have a moral obligation to continue to fight Nazis and their ilk wherever they are, no matter how tricky the laws might be to write. Our last strategy of just ignoring them has now blown up in our faces, what else are we supposed to do? Fulchrum posted:What, we gonna appoint some loving cyber brains in goo who carry out judgement on these things and are always 100% accurate? Or is it going to be interpreted by judges who are going to be appointed by Republicans, and have a vested interest in using these laws to silence all political groups the Right doesn't like? Yes, the laws will be tricky to put together. I can't think of anything right now that is analogous between Nazis did this, symbolism, or rhetoric and any of those groups. And hell, drop the planning genocide bit and now they're all safe from Fox. Only mimics of historical groups that actually pulled it off are stripped of their rights. I'm not going to nail the wording perfectly at 9 AM, my point is that it can be done and we are obligated to do it because they're Nazis, the worst people on earth. e. Yeah, this still kills communist gatherings. Red Baron fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 14:01
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:How come Germany has effective anti nazi laws if it's impossible? Both sides of the wall lived under an oppressive and totalitarian system with a gun pointed to their head for decades until they had every single thought of naziism beaten out of them. No, there isn't another way. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 14:02
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Dr. VooDoo posted:If i had the money I would buy the land right behind that stupid rock and erect a massive statue of Sherman that would be lit up so bright each night they put on one of those laser shows it could be seen from space while blaring Union battle hymns I would air drop a 75 foot tall statue of him right on top of that loving rock doing the power stance with a speech bubble attached to his head saying "To the ocean, chaps!"
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Aug 13, 2017 14:02
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:How come Germany has effective anti nazi laws if it's impossible? Actual enforcement to the point of overzealousness. (mostly showing up in video game censorship)
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Aug 13, 2017 14:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:How come Germany has effective anti nazi laws if it's impossible? Germany has far more restricted political speech than the United States.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:03
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Red Baron posted:No, because they don't meet the criteria, and just insisting that gay people or BLM are like Nazis does not suddenly make it so. They don't behave the same and so the law would not catch them. Because, you know, in addition to gently caress the Nazis and gently caress the loving Klan, gently caress the South.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:05
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:They are, legally, and should be represented, but they got hosed over in the past. no, they aren't. i linked earlier in the thread to a recent case where a black prisoner was punished for reading black panther material. the judge struck down his 1st amendment claims cause he had incited violence by partaking of black panther literature... https://www.courthousenews.com/inmate-loses-claim-over-black-panther-literature/ so as you can see, we already have provisions in place for violent speech like the nazis use. it's just not used against nazis, rather, against nonviolent poc. i think we should reverse the situation. black people reading a book isn't incitement to violence, kkk rallies and nazi rallies are!
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Aug 13, 2017 14:05
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Red Baron posted:Listen, my morning IV of meth and freedom hasn't kicked in and I'm still a little snippy, bad. Nothing bad can ever come from quickly writing up and passing laws in the emotion-fueled heat of the moment. I'm not convinced that the problem here is that these people are able to express their opinions. I think that everything else they did (and what the institutions that are supposed to defend other people's lives didn't) is the problem.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:07
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Inescapable Duck posted:Actual enforcement to the point of overzealousness. (mostly showing up in video game censorship) The second I posted it I knew someone was going to whine because it made them slightly edit videogames and thus was as bad as nazis
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Aug 13, 2017 14:07
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Again, enforcement. How the law is written barely matters when they can choose who to punish and who not to. You can't force racists and bigots to not be racist and bigoted just by writing words down on a piece of paper and calling them laws. You have to make them, with force if necessary, and if they're in power, replace them with people who won't be racist and bigoted. (this may take a few tries) You can't trust the people who think saying the right words is the same thing as doing the right thing.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:08
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Even if it were true that both sides were equally violent (it's not), one side is loving Nazis and the other is anti-Nazi for fucks's sakes. Gee I wonder who to support.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:09
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screamin and creamin posted:Nothing bad can ever come from quickly writing up and passing laws in the emotion-fueled heat of the moment. they can already express their opinions. and they do! daily! on stormfront and all over the internet! why do they need to be able to rally to express those "kill all minorities" opinions? these rallies only ever breed violence. and they harass and intimidate minorities, when they don't straight out lead to minorities or leftists being killed or maimed. we don't allow incitement to violence as free speech for a reason. and nazis are reason #1
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Aug 13, 2017 14:10
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Germany has far more restricted political speech than the United States. yeah don't celebrate the nazis, don't champion violence, genocide, oppression and don't violate article one of the constitution that says the dignity of any human being is inviolable period "restricted"
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Aug 13, 2017 14:11
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Condiv posted:no, they aren't. i linked earlier in the thread to a recent case where a black prisoner was punished for reading black panther material. the judge struck down his 1st amendment claims cause he had incited violence by partaking of black panther literature... Point conceded. I am upset by this and think that this limit should be overturned, not extended to others.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:11
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Germany has far more restricted political speech than the United States. I fail to see how that's supposed to be a bad thing in this case
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Aug 13, 2017 14:11
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az posted:yeah don't celebrate the nazis, don't champion violence, genocide, oppression and don't violate article one of the constitution that says the human dignity of any person is inviolable period Andrast posted:I fail to see how that's supposed to be a bad thing in this case They literally use it to arrest leftists who post memes on Facebook
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Aug 13, 2017 14:12
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Sounds like Bannon alright No, that's got Gorka's prints all over it.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:12
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Is there some nazi significance to this plate number?
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Aug 13, 2017 14:12
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nazis have no love of the first amendment, would do away with it entirely if they had the chance, and use it cynically as a shield against government action against them while they advocate for violent overthrow of the government and violent purges of everyone they disagree with the incitement to violence clause seems tailormade to punish such behavior, but it's never brought to bear against nazis. just minorities
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Aug 13, 2017 14:13
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screamin and creamin posted:Nothing bad can ever come from quickly writing up and passing laws in the emotion-fueled heat of the moment. Their opinions involve actually killing people, which strikes me as a problem of some size. It would be better to just not have more Nazis be made, but where do you start on that? How long will it take to complete? You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, certainly we can somehow apply a similar patch to this.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:14
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Red Baron posted:
How are you not getting this yet? Disingenuous shitheels will argue that any group they do not like is a mimic of a historical group of monsters. And other disingenuous shitheads who hold legal positions will rule in their favor.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:14
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:They literally use it to arrest leftists who post memes on Facebook What about all the other countries that have hate speech laws?
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Aug 13, 2017 14:14
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:They literally use it to arrest leftists who post memes on Facebook Heh I see this is going nowhere fast, carry on doing nothing.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:15
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Who is going to make these laws when all 3 federal branches are conservative controlled and most states are too? Who are you trusting to enforce them when state and federal law enforcement all skew right too? The Nazis should be declared terrorist groups since they explicitly say they want all nonwhites dead and all that. Then you can have the FBI ruin their poo poo, which of course is their job after all. But uh I am not optimistic about that either. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 14:16
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The point is, you don't and shouldn't need to make new laws to arrest fascists, the ones on the books will do just fine. It's a matter of the will to do it.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:17
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Germany has far more restricted political speech than the United States. They don't have an orange fascist in power atm, so it seems to be working for them. Also thanks for the kind words that have been coming in yesterday + today. You guys rock.  epilogue: Koalas March posted:I should add that iirc Germany works because they actually face their ugly history and teach their people about it in conjunction with the anti-fascist laws. This is about the only approach that would work but obviously we'd need to elect a different government before even trying. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 14:17
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Fulchrum posted:How are you not getting this yet? Disingenuous shitheels will argue that any group they do not like is a mimic of a historical group of monsters. And other disingenuous shitheads who hold legal positions will rule in their favor. How are you not getting that we already have an unequal system, and minorities and others do not have the same rights as coddled white people that want to play fascist dress up? An ideal is only worth defending when it means something. There is no equality or free speech in America as is. With that being true, why not gently caress over Nazis? We'll still have a broken system afterwards either way, it's just that one way fucks over Nazis.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:17
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Germany has far more restricted political speech than the United States. yeah, it owns. by the way, a US tourist apparently went on vacation in Germany, got plastered, threw a Hitler salute and got promptly beaten up by the locals. Germany seems to be doing pretty well in comparison to the US right now.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:18
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I should add that iirc Germany works because they actually face their ugly history and teach their people about it in conjunction with the anti-fascist laws. This is about the only approach that would work but obviously we'd need to elect a different government before even trying. We can't even teach students in the US about slavery without white washing it to hell and back.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:19
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