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Red Baron posted:Their opinions involve actually killing people, which strikes me as a problem of some size. It would be better to just not have more Nazis be made, but where do you start on that? How long will it take to complete? the "can't yell fire" thing was actually part of a SC decision that threw leftists in jail for anti-war agitation. it's not relevant. what is relevant is that under current precedent, speech that is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." is not protected speech
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Aug 13, 2017 14:19
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Prester Jane posted:Ahem. As someone who spent literally the past three years trying my damnedest to calmly explain the threat posed by these groups and their very real potential for violence (and eating no small amount of poo poo for doing so) let me just tell you that I have learned that normalcy bias is a motherfucker when it takes hold of groups. While there were those who were willing to listen there were also plenty of goon who went well out of their way to make it loving impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the topic. Hell, my thread was initially created in large part because certain posters had a conniption fit that I dared to suggest that the militias were a problem or that radical Christians were not going to simply roll over and make their peace with gay marriage. I agree that the left now has a better, more concrete understanding of what the stakes are. I think one of the reasons people have such a hard time delving into the question of fascist paramilitary organizations in America is because it means that being reasonable is pretty much done and we've moved directly to the violence stage of social collapse. That's not easy for many even on the left to stomach. Also, very few people know what to do in a situation like this. Forming your own militias might be one answer, but it also looks like the answer that leads to CWII, and no one really wants to accept that that is where all of this is going. I think there was also some resistance to your work because it assumes to be scholarly, but doesn't actually link to or work in the context of other scholarly work done in the field. That sort of makes it more suspect. I personally wish you'd spend more time making connections to actual research in your own work, it would strengthen it and give you a chance to engage with other thesis about how these sorts of organizations function. I think you should keep doing what you're doing and I think you're doing good work, but you need to situate yourself more strongly in the context of existing research.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:20
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Fulchrum posted:How are you not getting this yet? Disingenuous shitheels will argue that any group they do not like is a mimic of a historical group of monsters. And other disingenuous shitheads who hold legal positions will rule in their favor. Okay, so it sounds like your plan is some combination of replace elected officials with ones more favorable to us. Additionally, there's some part where you begin to drive down the recruitment numbers, but I don't know how you do that. Saying that we can't do X because of disingenuous shitheads is always true though. If some pundit argues that BLM = Nazis and it goes to court there's a chance you get a judge that immediately sees through this bullshit comparison. There's a chance it might not win, but we have to do something about our Nazi infestation. Condiv posted:the "can't yell fire" thing was actually part of a SC decision that threw leftists in jail for anti-war agitation. it's not relevant. what is relevant is that under current precedent, speech that is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." is not protected speech Ah, well, now I know.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:20
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Koalas March posted:They don't have an orange fascist in power atm, so it seems to be working for them. We literally had to watch our first democracy get shredded from the inside out and kickstart the worst human conflict in history to learn the lesson that democracy has to have some kiddylocks on it to work and yet people from around the world will snidely snipe at us for being oppressive and mean towards the far right  Things are far from perfect but this one thing actually works out well enough thus far.And please keep doing what you do I like your perspective on things in the states.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The root issues are that GBS mods get burned out and/or doxxed plus there's a constant influx of reddit racists plus good posters stopped reading GBS years ago and stay siloed off in subforums reading via bookmarks. Keeping gbs modded is a hard thankless job. Why don't they raise the rate to post in GBS? If you want to shitpost, pay the price. Getting banned would have a much a greater financial impact and there would be some disincentive to lose say 20bux each time.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:22
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botany posted:yeah, it owns. I just saw that, 2.76 blood alcohol, and in Dresden too  Excactly one week after two chinese tourists got nailed for heiling our seat of government, there should be pamphlets handed out on the planes over here about this kind of poo poo.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:26
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Oh boy, we may be heading for another one of these fun little times. Note that the "National Policy Institute" is owned by Spencer.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:28
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Red Baron posted:Okay, so it sounds like your plan is some combination of replace elected officials with ones more favorable to us. Additionally, there's some part where you begin to drive down the recruitment numbers, but I don't know how you do that. Use policies, social programs and organisations to stop youth alienation, improve education and access to mental health facilities, teach people effectively about the realities of oppression, slavery and genocide and the history of activism and political violence, encourage community building and mentorship so young people can feel like they're part of something without having to join a group full of people no one else wants. Don't give them a chance to be radicalised.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:30
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x-post from the suck zone: Scent of Worf posted:who can forget this gem: we need to cut this kinda poo poo out too.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:31
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az posted:We literally had to watch our first democracy get shredded from the inside out and kickstart the worst human conflict in history to learn the lesson that democracy has to have some kiddylocks on it to work and yet people from around the world will snidely snipe at us for being oppressive and mean towards the far right I pretty much see this as the only way forward. Society has learned that Nazis and their ilk have nothing to add to the discourse and that this set of ideas should be off limits. Curating this kind of bullshit is the only way we can have some form of social progress.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:33
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Cythereal posted:Oh boy, we may be heading for another one of these fun little times. "We must follow the law, upholding the first amendment...a provide access to a public space" That's not actually the law, is it? Like a public school doesn't actually have to host whatever fuckit what asks to speak?
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Aug 13, 2017 14:35
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I totally agree that something needs to be done about white supremacists, that wasn't really where I was trying to go. I'm gonna bow out of this discussion because it's exceptionally draining to defend anything related to Nazis. My perspective is based on maintaining as many of the minimal legal protections available to the far left as possible, and there aren't any hate speech laws on the books in any country that don't open up that possibility. I don't buy "lol the left is already fuckin doomed" as an argument. It's hard for me to continue that particular line of argument without personal examples that explain why I feel this way, but this account is doxxable, so if I've convinced nobody, sorry; but I wanted to get across why I support the ACLU and hopefully someone is at least thinking about what collateral damage could be.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:36
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Sharing again: https://twitter.com/exitthelemming/status/896631887715852289
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Aug 13, 2017 14:36
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In the glow of murder and violence by Nazis in Charlotteville, the country turns to the president to hear some reassurance and support that this and other violence will not be tolerated and America will be a safe home for everyone. The President nears the podium and every viewer both present and watching from their homes waits in silence. Donald Trump clears his throat, waves to the people, the tension intensifies as everyone waits with bated breath. President Trump lifts a mic from the podium and lowers it behind. No one knows what he's doing when suddenly the tension breaks in an epic climax as a loud, wet, disgusting fart squeezes past the president's flabby rear end cheeks. He then drops the mic, yells out "sad", and leaves the podium while people beg him to denounce Nazis and Nazis take his silence as justification that they are right. At the hands of Republicans in DC America burns, the world turns, all is lost.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:37
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https://twitter.com/swin24/status/896727574914748416 McMaster is an embarrassment.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:41
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Aug 13, 2017 14:42
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good job nyt: https://twitter.com/jonbernhardt/status/896721746614726657
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Aug 13, 2017 14:47
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The alt right talking point right now is that 1) the guy that ran over the people was a lone wolf and does not represent them, 2) some people displayed nazi symbols and it is absolutely clear that they are nazis, but again those are lone wolves and do not represent them, 3) that they were allowed to stand with them because free speech bro.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:48
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I totally agree that something needs to be done about white supremacists, that wasn't really where I was trying to go. I'm gonna bow out of this discussion because it's exceptionally draining to defend anything related to Nazis. My perspective is based on maintaining as many of the minimal legal protections available to the far left as possible, and there aren't any hate speech laws on the books in any country that don't open up that possibility. I don't buy "lol the left is already fuckin doomed" as an argument. It's hard for me to continue that particular line of argument without personal examples that explain why I feel this way, but this account is doxxable, so if I've convinced nobody, sorry; but I wanted to get across why I support the ACLU and hopefully someone is at least thinking about what collateral damage could be. Yeah, "just be clever with laws" is definitely an overly optimistic strategy even as much as I don't like admitting it, but I just wanted to make the same point as you that there has to be some kind of directed, purposeful action against them if we want to rid ourselves of their awfulness. I also don't believe the left is doomed by any means. I think we pick some poo poo leadership and I think the left should be much more left than it is now because means most proposed policy doesn't really jazz up potential voters. This is troubling to me mostly because the right is blazing new trails in being awful in terrifying ways and the left still doesn't seem to be getting more effective at reaching its base. It's 5000% possible to beat the worst pile of Rs ever, I just don't know why they can't pull it off.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:49
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and then they wonder why the press is dying
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Aug 13, 2017 14:51
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Red Baron posted:I mean, poo poo, just leave the 1st alone and make a new law that says, "Because Nazis are agents of a hostile foreign government in exile, we do not afford them the full rights and protections a citizen would receive. Now you just need to get a majority in both houses controlled by Nazi supporters and a thumbs up from our Nazi sympathizer in chief
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Aug 13, 2017 14:51
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It was just a massively organized rally of lone wolves...
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Aug 13, 2017 14:52
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/swin24/status/896727574914748416 lol imagine destroying your reputation forever for trump.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:52
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https://twitter.com/liamstack/status/896730059142254592
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Aug 13, 2017 14:52
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I totally agree that something needs to be done about white supremacists, that wasn't really where I was trying to go. I'm gonna bow out of this discussion because it's exceptionally draining to defend anything related to Nazis. My perspective is based on maintaining as many of the minimal legal protections available to the far left as possible, and there aren't any hate speech laws on the books in any country that don't open up that possibility. I don't buy "lol the left is already fuckin doomed" as an argument. It's hard for me to continue that particular line of argument without personal examples that explain why I feel this way, but this account is doxxable, so if I've convinced nobody, sorry; but I wanted to get across why I support the ACLU and hopefully someone is at least thinking about what collateral damage could be. I think you can validly make the argument that in the US specifically, any laws that aren't completely politically neutral or pretend to be (1st Amendment) are going to be immediately misused by the one power-hungry side currently in power. It's basically a judgement call on whether you think it's possible to craft hate speech laws specific enough that pro-Nazi governments won't abuse them to shut down the far left instead. I'm all for hate speech laws, as I've noted earlier, but this argument of "I don't trust the government to actually enforce hate speech laws correctly" is also valid. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 14:53
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Red Baron posted:Yeah, "just be clever with laws" is definitely an overly optimistic strategy even as much as I don't like admitting it, but I just wanted to make the same point as you that there has to be some kind of directed, purposeful action against them if we want to rid ourselves of their awfulness. Establishment Democrats aren't the 'left' as it turns out, most of them are centrists at best. They're wealthy people who benefit from the status quo and only approve of changes to it that don't threaten their position, which has reached the point where their 'base' is mostly demanding things that Democrats don't want and are actively attacking the left who are trying to make the Democrats adopt policies that will actually excite the base. They want to look good, but they don't want to make any sacrifices to do good things.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:53
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they really are the "failing nytimes"
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Aug 13, 2017 14:53
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"the internet, how does it work"
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Aug 13, 2017 14:53
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Gaunab posted:It's infuriating how fast the idea that both sides were being violent is spreading. Some people will bend over backwards trying to explain how all this isn't just the white supremacist fault. It doesn't really help our case that more people have died at BLM events than Nazi events in recent history. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 13, 2017 14:54
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Red Baron posted:You can make the law so specific it only affects Nazis too and you don't even have to name them. No one gets free speech then. The US has a happy little history of genociding the native populations
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Aug 13, 2017 14:54
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Here's some good news/Schadenfreude to wake up to: http://www.focus.de/regional/dresden/extremismus-betrunkener-amerikaner-zeigt-hitlergruss-und-wird-verpruegelt_id_7466583.html quote:Ein betrunkener Tourist aus den USA hat am Samstagvormittag in der Dresdner Neustadt mehrfach den Hitler-Gruß gezeigt und ist daraufhin von einem Mann attackiert worden. My rough translation: "A drunk American tourist displayed the Hitler salute several times Saturday morning in Dresden and was attacked by a man."
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Aug 13, 2017 14:55
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"I hope that the people sharing the photo are willing to listen that I’m not the angry racist they see in that photo.” 
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Aug 13, 2017 14:57
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I think the dumbest Neo-Nazi's are the ones who don't loving realize that once they came to power their ethnic groups would be loving next. Nazi's probably killed a decent part of that guy's extended family, judging from the Slavic name.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:57
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Captain Invictus posted:It'd take a shitload of dynamite as that thing is both huge and made of granite. Who gives a gently caress, we should send a team up to the top and drill holes and stick so much dynamite in them that the whole thing slides off like the top of a cupcake in a hot car. Then take all the granite that falls and make countertops for all the low income black households in the surrounding area for having to put up with that poo poo this whole time.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:57
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Boris Galerkin posted:Here's some good news/Schadenfreude to wake up to: That's a good example of why defeating evil comes from cultural changes. The power of society extends past our laws.
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Aug 13, 2017 14:59
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Xae posted:I think the dumbest Neo-Nazi's are the ones who don't loving realize that once they came to power their ethnic groups would be loving next. Nazi's probably killed a decent part of that guy's extended family, judging from the Slavic name. idiot neonazi posted:“As a white nationalist, I care for all people. We all deserve a future for our children and for our culture. White nationalists aren’t all hateful; we just want to preserve what we have.” jfc what a shitbird
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Aug 13, 2017 15:01
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Trabisnikof posted:That's a good example of why defeating evil comes from cultural changes. The power of society extends past our laws. This. When Americans are ready to beat down any Nazi they see, there will be no Nazis.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:01
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Koalas March posted:"I hope that the people sharing the photo are willing to listen that I’m not the angry racist they see in that photo.” Nice try mate, but you've 'accidently' slipped a nice reference to the 14 words in here. 'We all deserve a future for our children and for our culture.'
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Aug 13, 2017 15:02
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Condiv posted:you certainly have. did you know i was conflicted earlier yesterday wrt to the ACLU's part in this? it was after looking up their stances and realizing that they believe in certain restrictions (which should've allowed for them to pass on the nazi case) and the fact they aren't everywhere at once and have not aided in certain 1a cases that were definitely more important than this that i came to the conclusion they royally hosed up yesterday. Good lord you are ignorant comparing the 1917 Supreme Court to the 60s-70s court. As if nothing changed in their view of civil rights in 50 yrs.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:03
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Trabisnikof posted:That's a good example of why defeating evil comes from cultural changes. The power of society extends past our laws. That's what I'm saying, and that laws are nothing without the will to enforce them. Plenty of dictatorships and terrible societies have just and reasonable laws that no one, including the government, even acknowledges.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:04
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