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Sorry I was just tired of the "jeff is sucking the life out of us" meme. I don't mean to be a basement troll. My point is that it's all good and fun.
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Aug 16, 2017 03:31
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I placed mid Diamond in Copa Ball!! Jokes on them though - I cant break plat in actual comp. Also playing Copa Ball with GMs is more punishing than fun to be honest. Kinda bummed me out. Still kind of exciting to get the icon and all. Still has crybaby throwers though.
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Aug 16, 2017 03:55
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headcase posted:Sorry I was just tired of the "jeff is sucking the life out of us" meme. I don't mean to be a basement troll. My point is that it's all good and fun. Our issue is that there have been recent changes that have been made *coughroadhogcough* that were really bad for the game overall in the interest of 'fun', and that's caused a lot of people to lose faith in the developers as a result. Now we're worried that they're going to do the same thing with a hero that they just introduced that also has a chance at possibly changing up the tournament metagame from something other than all dive all the time, because people don't know how to position themselves in relation to a wall. Kai Tave posted:I can't remember which team it was during the dominance of triple tanks + Ana who decided, at a pro tournament no less, to make a deliberate and conscious effort to play as off-meta as possible because A). they felt like it and B). they were all individually good enough at their chosen characters to make it work for them. This was back when you had Ana, Lucio, Rein, D.Va, Soldier, and then like a Roadhog or maybe a Zarya, and these guys were bringing Widowmaker, Tracer, I think Mercy, etc. That was Misfits at Dreamhack Winter, back when they had SoOn and UnKoE.
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Aug 16, 2017 04:16
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I thought it was pretty obvious that games should be balanced around top tier play since that's when the game mechanics actually become meaningful limits or even calcuably useful Consider: execution difficulty is not really considered a balancing factor in tournament level fighting game play except where the motions actually impact when it is possible to do something cf 720 vs crouch charge
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Aug 16, 2017 04:17
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Lowness 72 posted:I placed mid Diamond in Copa Ball!! Jokes on them though - I cant break plat in actual comp. Also playing Copa Ball with GMs is more punishing than fun to be honest. Kinda bummed me out. Same, high gold solo queueing in ranked. Held back by lovely team mates. Laggio ball I placed diamond and am 1 win off master, all those hours of rocket league paid off
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Aug 16, 2017 04:29
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berenzen posted:Our issue is that there have been recent changes that have been made *coughroadhogcough* that were really bad for the game overall in the interest of 'fun', and that's caused a lot of people to lose faith in the developers as a result. Now we're worried that they're going to do the same thing with a hero that they just introduced that also has a chance at possibly changing up the tournament metagame from something other than all dive all the time, because people don't know how to position themselves in relation to a wall The point I was originally driving at didn't even center around Roadhog specifically so much as the Symmetra/Torb winrate thing and how these numbers are frequently held up by Celebrity Overwatch Game Design Spokesperson Jeff Kaplan in ways that he loves using to bolster his arguments but without any sort of acknowledgement of the context by which those numbers actually arise. Does he not understand why Symmetra's winrate is so high? Or does he understand why but is perfectly happy to gloss over that little detail so long as he can still use it to make himself sound like the incredibly cool and collected professional game designer with all the true info while everybody else is dumb and so goddamn crazy? Either way it's pretty stupid and I don't understand why so many people are so eager to hold this dude up as the gold standard for video game designers. Like, I don't want Jeff Kaplan to be marched off to the guillotine, I'm not writing my congressman about the bluepost scourge, I just don't actually think he's as great as he's made out to be.
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Aug 16, 2017 04:40
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All I ever see here is bitching about him so I'm not sure where you're getting that impression.
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Aug 16, 2017 04:54
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No Wave posted:All I ever see here is bitching about him so I'm not sure where you're getting that impression. Literally anywhere else but here, Reddit, bnet, Twitter, etc.
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Aug 16, 2017 05:05
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headcase posted:I wouldn't argue that point, but they generally don't say "I'm going to go with junkrat today because he nice change of pace and i don't really care if it's an optimal pick." In any game played at a high level, the min/max matters and only one choice is the right choice. Why worry about it? people still do sometimes though. and it's not a bad thing that people who care more about winning make the choices that lead to more wins on average
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Aug 16, 2017 06:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Widowmaker. Snipers deserve to be nerfed. Hopefully one day they'll nerf Widow so hard they accidentally delete her data from their computers
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Aug 16, 2017 07:14
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Junkrat is the quintessential "good at low ranks, bad at higher ranks" character, but I guarantee you that all the Junkrat fans out there aren't looking at his upcoming buff and going "oh really, you don't have to do this, he's fine where he is." The Junkrat buff is actually a Good Balance Change imo because it goes about trying to adjust a character through methods that don't involve simply adding/subtracting numbers from stuff. I mean, it's possible the second mine might give him an unexpected amount of burst damage though the fact that it knocks people back probably gets in the way of that, but the additional mine means that the skill ceiling for Junkrat goes higher as it opens up more tricks for skilled players to pull off without sacrificing burst/escape for mobility/engagement and vice versa, and the change to the tire is good because it doesn't simply add more health to chunk through but instead means that you can still kill the tire with the same amount of damage but now you have to be quicker and more accurate to do so. I would prefer to see more of this and less of "we reduced this character's damage by 33%" or "we decided to make this character's deployable barrier that we gave a lowered cooldown to earlier EVEN BIGGER THAN BEFORE."
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Aug 16, 2017 07:35
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Orisa's barrier buffs are good and wholesome.
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Aug 16, 2017 07:43
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World Famous W posted:Orisa's barrier buffs are good and wholesome. I mean they already buffed her barrier cooldown while simultaneously nerfing one of the better barrier-busters in the game, making the barrier even bigger is completely missing the point, people already don't even bother shooting it to break it, they just walk through it and shoot her big head until she dies. Overwatch could also use less barrier spam in general, the buff in question comes across as someone in Blizzard HQ getting frustrated that people won't replace Reinhardt with their new "anchor" tank and going "well fine, we'll just make her barrier EVEN BIGGER then! Now they'll HAVE to love her!" Nobody, not even any of the five Orisa mains in existence, was asking for more buffs to the shield. The projectile speed buff is okay but what she could really use is improvements to Halt, which is a good ability that's hamstrung by being slow and muddy/unresponsive to use.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:00
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World Famous W posted:Orisa's barrier buffs are good and wholesome. Orisa is my beetle-bae. League of Legends team figured out a long-rear end time ago that, no, you can't just balance around the highest level players. Yes, that's where alot of the good plays come in, so having that high skill ceiling is a thing. Gives players something to shoot for. However, if you also don't balance around lower level players who make up a majority of your player-base, people aren't going stick around to buy your boxes. That involves making both dying and killing enjoyable to the average player. Yes, dying can be enjoyable as long as you find it fair. That's why Roadhog got nerfed. That's why he needed to be nerfed. That's also why I expect a small change to Doomfist to make his tells more telling.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:05
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Kai Tave posted:I mean they already buffed her barrier cooldown while simultaneously nerfing one of the better barrier-busters in the game, making the barrier even bigger is completely missing the point, people already don't even bother shooting it to break it, they just walk through it and shoot her big head until she dies. Overwatch could also use less barrier spam in general, the buff in question comes across as someone in Blizzard HQ getting frustrated that people won't replace Reinhardt with their new "anchor" tank and going "well fine, we'll just make her barrier EVEN BIGGER then! Now they'll HAVE to love her!" Nobody, not even any of the five Orisa mains in existence, was asking for more buffs to the shield. The projectile increase is just icing.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:09
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Every time I died to a roadhog pre-nerf, I don't think it was ever bullshit and thought that the hero was overpowered. I thought, 'I hosed up and got punished for it'. Players hate punishment mechanics because it shows them how bad they were, and rather than getting good, they bitch and whine about it because they don't want to get better. Plain and simple, if you died to a roadhog, you deserved it same as how if you die to a doomfist (who's already really loving telling, what else do you want? Him to glow like an ulting McCree and show through walls? People are still going to loving die to that because they're idiots), it's entirely your fault. Do you bitch about when you get flash & doubletapped when going up vs. a mccree? Or a tracer one-clipping you, or a rein landing a charge on you as well? How about a soldier juggling you as he helix rockets your feet and puts 3 bullets in your character's skull? Or a Zen dropping a charged shot volley in your head? Or a Pharah juggle-killing you with a pair of quick rockets? How about a genji right click-dash-melee comboing you? All of these are things that can effectively kill you without you getting a chance to respond, so are they bullshit as well? I'd like to point out that every major longstanding competitive game balances game rules around top-end competitive play. Chess, hockey, football, Go, etc. Hell, the fundamental idea behind game theory in general is that players in the game are of equal skill/intelligence. Top-level play informs low-level play, and if low-level play imbalance is so egregious, then find the heroes that are problematic and raise their skill floor, rather than completely destroying their capability across all levels of play. berenzen fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 08:18
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Kokoro Wish posted:That involves making both dying and killing enjoyable to the average player. Yes, dying can be enjoyable as long as you find it fair. That's why Roadhog got nerfed. That's why he needed to be nerfed. That's also why I expect a small change to Doomfist to make his tells more telling. People mad that they died due to their own fuckups are never going to be satisfied no matter how many changes Blizzard makes to placate them, there is no such thing as an "enjoyable, fair" death to the sort of person who refuses to acknowledge their own part in things. They might say "well it's fair when you die to Tracer or Soldier, but Roadhog is bullshit" but they don't mean it, I guarantee you that they fume and sputter just as much about how bullshit those characters are when they die to them, and now that Roadhog is in the dumpster they're just going to pin their mistakes on some other excuse because it wasn't ever Roadhog holding them back. It's like Dumbo's magic feather but in reverse.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:28
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Straight White Shark posted:I'm curious: what's the vertical range like on meteor strike's damage? Can Zen hang out next to a ledge until Doomfist confirms the target and then jump down to a lower level to escape the ult? Obviously this wouldn't be a cure-all since there's not always going to be a convenient ledge but it would be handy to know. What isnt good is that it goes through buildings, we heard the meteor strike warning and all ran into the room next to the point at the end of kings row, (the one with the healthpack) and he came through the ceiling and killed us all - No defence from doomfist at all....
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Aug 16, 2017 08:29
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A good example of this is Genji. If you just continually magdump into his reflect and kill yourself he isn't OP. Bait that poo poo out or switch to Winston and make that mopey little cylon ride the goddamn lightning
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Aug 16, 2017 08:31
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TheresaJayne posted:What isnt good is that it goes through buildings, we heard the meteor strike warning and all ran into the room next to the point at the end of kings row, (the one with the healthpack) and he came through the ceiling and killed us all - No defence from doomfist at all.... Doomfist basically is an invisible targetting reticule that targets the ground. He actually doesn't have any vertical tolerance, but does have line of sight tolerance from the center of the reticule. The moment you saw the big glowy red circle on the ground, you could have literally walked around the corner and taken no damage. If he could climb vertical surfaces the ult would be so much more powerful. As it is, his ult is literally probably the weakest part of his kit.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:40
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I think the Orisa shield buff is appropriate. The short height of the current shield means snipers still gently caress her up unless she's huddling right inside it, so more height is appreciated. The new lower lip will make the shield play nicer with ledges.
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Aug 16, 2017 08:42
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Kai Tave posted:Literally anywhere else but here, Reddit, bnet, Twitter, etc. You're right in what you're saying but can we just... not? The overwatch community is so crushingly negative about basically everything in game and out.
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Aug 16, 2017 09:12
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Redundant posted:Tell them then instead of slating Jeff for 3 pages about something most people here are already aware of? If it helps everyone is enjoying the world cup
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Aug 16, 2017 09:48
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https://gfycat.com/DimpledSecondLarva
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Aug 16, 2017 10:38
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dogstile posted:If it helps everyone is enjoying the world cup
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Aug 16, 2017 10:48
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berenzen posted:Doomfist basically is an invisible targetting reticule that targets the ground. He actually doesn't have any vertical tolerance, but does have line of sight tolerance from the center of the reticule. The moment you saw the big glowy red circle on the ground, you could have literally walked around the corner and taken no damage. If he could climb vertical surfaces the ult would be so much more powerful. As it is, his ult is literally probably the weakest part of his kit. This makes me wonder how the game would handle him coming down on top of a mei wall that was already ceiling height.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:20
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He just gets stuck in the wall until its gone.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:41
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Kokoro Wish posted:League of Legends team figured out a long-rear end time ago that, no, you can't just balance around the highest level players. You can and you should, League of Legends is an even shittier version of a game that was already "WarCraft 3 for people who can't handle the skill ceiling." Almost everything it does, balance and otherwise, is like a lesson in how not to design a competitive game.
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Aug 16, 2017 13:38
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Redundant posted:Tell them then instead of slating Jeff for 3 pages about something most people here are already aware of? Thank you
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Aug 16, 2017 14:45
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My turn to beat the dead pig.headcase posted:My point is that it's all good and fun. Roadhog's only trick at the moment is Surviving. Everything else - his mediocre chip damage, movement, zoning capibility, protection - is done better by other tanks or even defense characters. Meanwhile, anyone who picks a fight with him has to effectively chew through 900 to 1200 hp, depending on whether or not they feel like wasting a clip during the 2-second Take a Breather animation to squeeze a lil' more ult out of Boulevardboar. They have to give him something - his primary/alt fire dealing knockback, effectively deleting 200 HP, a 4-5 second hook cooldown, ect. - that actually gives him something to do. Because he's not right now.
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Aug 16, 2017 14:57
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I should become a roadhog main until the end of the season just to see how bad he actually is, now you guys are making me curious
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Aug 16, 2017 15:44
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Man, be prepared to be salty as gently caress. You might get wins, hell you might even climb a little (He still tears apart lower ranked teams) but he's absolutely dogshit in terms of feel right now. I had to stop playing him because if I hook one more pharah who gets away because of the loving shotgun spread, i'm gonna rage.
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Aug 16, 2017 15:50
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I mained Hanzo the entire season, I'm immune to salt and rage from my teammates by now.
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Aug 16, 2017 15:52
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Kokoro Wish posted:
I don't buy this argument. Compare it to Dota, an apples-to-apples comparison (both mobas). Dota has one dev balancing the game (icefrog), and he balances only around the pro scene. He doesn't balance around pubs at all. Yet, the game is very balanced, and people buy lots of stupid hats and battle passes and stuff, enough that the crowd-funded championships of the game that happened last week had a prize pool of $24 Million. Check out this graph comparing hero pickrates at tournaments: LoL leaves over half of its heroes totally untouched, whereas only 4 heroes went untouched in dota. I don't think using LoL as an example of good balance works at all. If anything it's a counter-example. 
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Aug 16, 2017 16:50
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Also that why watching professional Dota 2 matches is way more interesting than professional LoL matches Even if league of legends has more viewers usually.... I think? Honestly don't know how it stands these days
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Aug 16, 2017 17:14
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frajaq posted:Also that why watching professional Dota 2 matches is way more interesting than professional LoL matches It definitely helps that balancing around the highest level play also necessarily means expanding possibilities for spectacular outplay - LoL seems to have very, very little of that.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:37
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Redundant posted:Tell them then instead of slating Jeff for 3 pages about something most people here are already aware of? Sorry, I didn't realize this was the Positive Things Only thread, my bad.
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Aug 16, 2017 17:52
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You can and you should, League of Legends is an even shittier version of a game that was already "WarCraft 3 for people who can't handle the skill ceiling." Almost everything it does, balance and otherwise, is like a lesson in how not to design a competitive game.
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Aug 16, 2017 18:42
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IronicDongz posted:are you saying dota doesn't have a high skill ceiling? By comparison to 90s Blizzard RTS games, most games don't.
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Aug 16, 2017 18:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:By comparison to 90s Blizzard RTS games, most games don't. back in my day we played Dune II where you could only select ONE unit at a time 
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Aug 16, 2017 18:49
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