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So what the hell is Agenda 21 any how did this become a thing with conspiracy theorists? As far as I can tell, it's just a non-binding statement that means "hey wait a minute, having most of your population in a Robert Moses hellscape causes a bunch of social, economic, and environmental problems, maybe we shouldn't do that?" somehow that's turned into "POPULATION CONTROL!!!!!  "
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Aug 15, 2017 21:15
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Instant Sunrise posted:So what the hell is Agenda 21 any how did this become a thing with conspiracy theorists? you're exactly right about what Agenda 21 is - a nonbinding resolution meant to ease climate change and environmental degradation by mitigating some of the stupider 20th century decisions in urban planning and land use controls it's easy to spin as a tyrannical plot to take over america because americans are super anxious about the ability to drive cars and live on detached homes on a half acre of land. like it's part of our national character. if you want to piss off an american and you don't want to talk about history or the flag, talk about how suburbs are stupid and so is driving a car everywhere. you can't even have an urban planning or suburb thread in d&d without it devolving into a shouting match about how cities are soviet hellscapes and suburbs are cultural wastelands
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Aug 15, 2017 21:19
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Yeah I was just going to say you only have to look at how extremely defensive a small amount of american goons get at the mention that maybe endless car-dependant sprawl isn't the best pattern of development. It becomes like gun control levels of emotional investment and reasonable conversations end up very difficult. Then you get 3 olive types who come in blasting anyone who doesn't live in a condo tower as some sort of uncultured yokel and the two sides just sling insults at each other. The UN saying sprawl is bad, car-centric design is bad is extremely triggering for people who already think there's a "war on cars" and the UN is plotting on genociding all whites any day now.
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Aug 15, 2017 21:26
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you can tell people who get anxious about their car dependent lifestyle because they also get real mad if you say that self driving cars aren't going to magically fix all of our traffic problems (because the problem itself is caused by the use of cars)
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Aug 15, 2017 21:37
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self-driving cabs are really only good for first/last mile in areas without a good transportation network in place. which probably describes most suburbs come to think of it.
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Aug 15, 2017 21:49
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Instant Sunrise posted:self-driving cabs are really only good for first/last mile in areas without a good transportation network in place. sure but the fantasy is that swarm intelligence and the cloud something something make traffic jams a thing of the past because of instant response times and no bad driving ...which just means we're going to pack more vehicles on the road and hit the induced demand ceiling again pretty much a huge chunk of american futurism is the car of the future which will give you all the benefits of driving but none of the drawbacks
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Aug 15, 2017 21:53
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Wait, what car enthusiasts are chomping at the bit for a self driving car? Every one I know hates the idea of trusting a machine to do it because they're clearly a better driver.
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Aug 15, 2017 22:00
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RagnarokAngel posted:Wait, what car enthusiasts are chomping at the bit for a self driving car? Every one I know hates the idea of trusting a machine to do it because they're clearly a better driver. no, not gearheads - they will be one of the big obstacles to the adoption of self driving cars i'm talking more about the broader groups of americans who can't conceive of a lifestyle that doesn't revolve around using a car to go everywhere. people who don't necessarily like driving or long commutes but react with disgust at the idea of taking mass transit, get irritated by cyclists on the roads, etc. there's tons of americans who get low key anxious about the idea of riding a bus or walking more than a quarter mile. think about all the people who circle parking lots so they can get a spot where they dont have to walk too far
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Aug 15, 2017 22:02
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RagnarokAngel posted:Wait, what car enthusiasts are chomping at the bit for a self driving car? Every one I know hates the idea of trusting a machine to do it because they're clearly a better driver. Not car enthusiasts, suburb enthusiasts. People terrified that the status quo might ever be upset because they're really comfortable right now and the only alternatives they can imagine are weird half-formed hellscape based on that one time they had to take the bus in the city and it was late and full of blacks. It's not quite conspiracy theory territory, but there's a weird semi-overlapping group of white middle class suburb-dwellers who think technocrat heros like Musk are going to solve all our problems and let the status quo keep marching on if only we stopped blocking all their progress with red tape. If musk doesn't like labour laws, get rid of them, we'd all be riding around in self-driving hyperloops today if we just gave these innovators the freedom to overcome society's issues via technology and good old fashioned entrepreneurial spirit. You really think regulations and taxes are going to solve problems? Innovation always find a way, climate change will be solved, transport will be solved, the economy and social issues will be all be solved if we just put our trust in some silicon valley experts. It's this almost religious-like faith in technology and "innovation" solving everything, if it wasn't for all the red tape and innovation stifling forces arrayed against them. That it's ok to totally ignore most social and economic problems because in the end they'll all be innovated away.
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Aug 15, 2017 22:12
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boner confessor posted:sure but the fantasy is that swarm intelligence and the cloud something something make traffic jams a thing of the past because of instant response times and no bad driving An automated vehicle fleet does make traffic flow way more efficiently though. Many traffic control problems have known causes with solutions that are impossible to reach with human drivers but easily feasible if all of the cars are coordinated. That said, getting to that point requires passing a long series of huge hurdle that a lot of technofetishists tend to ignore
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Aug 15, 2017 22:20
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QuarkJets posted:An automated vehicle fleet does make traffic flow way more efficiently though. Many traffic control problems have known causes with solutions that are impossible to reach with human drivers but easily feasible if all of the cars are coordinated. ...and like i said, once you have your new infrastructure in place you'll quickly get to a new equilibrium when you hit induced demand and you're back to traffic congestion again. even if this technology magically existed tomorrow it wouldn't be long before traffic came back it's not possible within reasonable boundaries to eliminate congestion by adding more road capacity. the only thing you can do is a modal, time, or route shift, and of these three the only really feasible one is the modal shift, which means building more mass transit and redeveloping land to be better suited for multimodal transportation
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Aug 15, 2017 22:31
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boner confessor posted:...and like i said, once you have your new infrastructure in place you'll quickly get to a new equilibrium when you hit induced demand and you're back to traffic congestion again. even if this technology magically existed tomorrow it wouldn't be long before traffic came back Most people don't really understand induced demand. They see their 20 min commute is now a 30 min commute because traffic has been getting worse, and it seems very logical to them that an extra lane would ease things. And it probably would, if nothing else changed, but guess what now that the highway has more capacity, developers can better sell farther and farther out subdivisions to people, and the highway clogs right up again. This would be fine if endless sprawl and highways were the model of development we wanted, but it's not because it's not remotely sustainable, financially or environmentally. Luckily induced demand works the other way too, you build a metro line and you get development around it geared towards being accessed via the new metro system. You create a comprehensive protected cycling network and now your bike modeshare is up, each a car trip taken off the road. Bikes, transit, and walking all have a much higher "density" of capacity and are more cost effective too. There's always growing pains though when trying to switch an area's mode shares though, and the fact that it isn't instant is often used as proof that it can't work. So to defer some short term discomfort we're continuing down a path that will lead to some serious long term pain. All self driving cars will do is act as a multiplier on road capacity, but it doesn't solve the root problem at all and will fill up just like building extra lanes.
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Aug 15, 2017 23:38
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I'm now seeing an effort to claim that the guy who drove a car into the crowd was actually working for Soros. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/08/random-man-protests-interviewed-msnbc-ny-times-deep-state-shill-linked-george-soros/ gently caress these people.
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Aug 16, 2017 01:49
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boner confessor posted:...and like i said, once you have your new infrastructure in place you'll quickly get to a new equilibrium when you hit induced demand and you're back to traffic congestion again. even if this technology magically existed tomorrow it wouldn't be long before traffic came back So? You've still saved a huge number of lives by reducing collision frequency and you've made driving more consequence-free by permitting people to pay attention to other things while the car drives for them. Those are 2 major downsides of driving that almost go away even if congestion eventually equalizes Yes, this is a downside if you're opposed to Sprawl. But we're not talking about Sprawl, we're talking about whether automated vehicles will eliminate or mitigate the downsides of driving
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Aug 16, 2017 01:50
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I'm now seeing an effort to claim that the guy who drove a car into the crowd was actually working for Soros. they've been saying soros is behind everything for a quarter century. you can get a lot of mileage out of a stupid conspiracy theory soros must be a real lovely sinister billionare if he hasn't taken over the world yet
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Aug 16, 2017 01:50
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boner confessor posted:soros must be a real lovely sinister billionare if he hasn't taken over the world yet That's probably just what he wants you to think!
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Aug 16, 2017 02:14
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Instant Sunrise posted:So what the hell is Agenda 21 any how did this become a thing with conspiracy theorists? From my understanding Agenda 21 is pretty much a John Birch society classic, going back to the early 90s when most conspiracy theory was done via mail order and crazy-notes on shopping center cork boards. The Birchers think environmentalism is a communist plot and the UN is a communist plot, so "Agenda 21" is basically double communism. This is pre climate-change-is-leftist-lizard-conspiracy vintage stuff.
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Aug 16, 2017 15:02
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boner confessor posted:you can tell people who get anxious about their car dependent lifestyle because they also get real mad if you say that self driving cars aren't going to magically fix all of our traffic problems (because the problem itself is caused by the use of cars) I'm 44 years old and have a well paying career. I've lived in 8 different countries in everything from massive metropolises to tiny mediaeval market towns in the middle of the forest. In all of that time, I've never learnt to drive or thought to own a car because I've never needed one (and in some places, owning a car is more of a liability than a benefit anyhow - looking at you central Paris). My ex-wife is from Colorado Springs and we would go out there once a year or so to visit her parents. When I told them I couldn't drive, they looked at me like I'd just grown a second head.
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Aug 16, 2017 21:02
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QuarkJets posted:So? You've still saved a huge number of lives by reducing collision frequency and you've made driving more consequence-free by permitting people to pay attention to other things while the car drives for them. Those are 2 major downsides of driving that almost go away even if congestion eventually equalizes that's great buddy but it has nothing to do with the point i am making. self driving cars could all come with coolers with free ice cream for all i care and that still has zero effect whatsoever on my argument which is that self driving cars cannot and will not fix traffic congestion here's another way to commute consequence free - take the bus
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Aug 16, 2017 21:28
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Helen Highwater posted:I'm 44 years old and have a well paying career. I've lived in 8 different countries in everything from massive metropolises to tiny mediaeval market towns in the middle of the forest. In all of that time, I've never learnt to drive or thought to own a car because I've never needed one (and in some places, owning a car is more of a liability than a benefit anyhow - looking at you central Paris). My ex-wife is from Colorado Springs and we would go out there once a year or so to visit her parents. When I told them I couldn't drive, they looked at me like I'd just grown a second head. Seems like the same arguments against learning to swim, but they both seem like valuable life skills that anyone could one day be in a position to seriously regret never picking up.
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Aug 16, 2017 21:41
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The Bloop posted:Seems like the same arguments against learning to swim, but they both seem like valuable life skills that anyone could one day be in a position to seriously regret never picking up. there are plenty of places in the world where there are sane urban planning policies and built environment traditions which don't require you to have to use an expensive machine to navigate. billions of people manage it every day
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Aug 16, 2017 21:43
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One day the world will be 70% roads, and then who will be laughing?
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Aug 16, 2017 21:52
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boner confessor posted:here's another way to commute consequence free - take the bus LMAO taking public transport drastically increases your chances of suffering from major depression and committing suicide. FACT! Im going to make a post about agenda 21 a little bit later cause none of you sheeps seem to know the sinister truth of what its really about.
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Aug 16, 2017 22:05
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boner confessor posted:that's great buddy but it has nothing to do with the point i am making. self driving cars could all come with coolers with free ice cream for all i care and that still has zero effect whatsoever on my argument which is that self driving cars cannot and will not fix traffic congestion This is non coincidentally, a big reason I miss living in Phoenix with its quasi-okay bus system plus light rail line.
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Aug 16, 2017 22:11
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boner confessor posted:there are plenty of places in the world where there are sane urban planning policies and built environment traditions which don't require you to have to use an expensive machine to navigate. billions of people manage it every day On the other hand if you might be going to America it might not be a bad skill to have
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Aug 16, 2017 22:22
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boner confessor posted:that's great buddy but it has nothing to do with the point i am making. self driving cars could all come with coolers with free ice cream for all i care and that still has zero effect whatsoever on my argument which is that self driving cars cannot and will not fix traffic congestion This post seemed to encompass a lot more than just traffic congestion: boner confessor posted:pretty much a huge chunk of american futurism is the car of the future which will give you all the benefits of driving but none of the drawbacks but if you internally scaled back your meaning without telling anyone that's cool I guess, no need to be flippant about it though
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Aug 16, 2017 22:32
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smoke sumthin bitch posted:LMAO taking public transport drastically increases your chances of suffering from major depression and committing suicide. FACT! Im going to make a post about agenda 21 a little bit later cause none of you sheeps seem to know the sinister truth of what its really about. Correlation != causation you dumbfuck mouth breather
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Aug 16, 2017 22:34
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smoke sumthin bitch posted:LMAO taking public transport drastically increases your chances of suffering from major depression and committing suicide. FACT! Im going to make a post about agenda 21 a little bit later cause none of you sheeps seem to know the sinister truth of what its really about. You know what else increases your chances of suffering from major depression and committing suicide? Your posting
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Aug 16, 2017 22:36
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smoke sumthin bitch posted:LMAO taking public transport drastically increases your chances of suffering from major depression and committing suicide. FACT! Im going to make a post about agenda 21 a little bit later cause none of you sheeps seem to know the sinister truth of what its really about. You're still here?
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Aug 16, 2017 22:36
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Ashcans posted:One day the world will be 70% roads, and then who will be laughing? OPEC?
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Aug 16, 2017 22:40
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QuarkJets posted:Correlation != causation you dumbfuck mouth breather I saw this reply and im like "wow that's pretty harsh I'm pretty sure he's just kidding oh its smoke somethin bitch nevermind."
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Aug 17, 2017 13:13
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smoke sumthin bitch posted:LMAO taking public transport drastically increases your chances of suffering from major depression and committing suicide. FACT! Im going to make a post about agenda 21 a little bit later cause none of you sheeps seem to know the sinister truth of what its really about.
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Aug 17, 2017 13:34
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Can we not?
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Aug 17, 2017 13:36
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boner confessor posted:there are plenty of places in the world where there are sane urban planning policies and built environment traditions which don't require you to have to use an expensive machine to navigate. billions of people manage it every day Yeah no poo poo, and those people can go their whole life without swimming too, but as I said it is a potentially useful life skill that might be good to know just in case you're ever in the situation where it would be useful or lifesaving. That's all. I understand why many people don't know how and in fact it is the same reason most Americans only speak one language - there is no immediate need to speak another.
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Aug 17, 2017 15:04
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I do not like to swim or drive but I know how to do both in case the situation comes up.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:43
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The Population Control conspiracies are always the most blatantly racist of conspiracy theories. It's always white populations being reduced so dirty browns can take over, and its not population reduction through family planning but roving UN death squads executing people in the street. Plus it just doesn't make sense of the Elites to kill off the masses. The Black Plague of the 14th century killed a huge number of Europeans, and it caused a massive shift in the social order that lead to social reforms that would have been impossible their the larger pre plague populations because labour become more expensive than cheaper. You want to have teaming masses that you can exploit cheaply.
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Aug 17, 2017 21:42
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How is know ing how to drive likely to save my life? I know how to swim because, alongside the fact that swimming is pretty fun, there's a good chance that at some point I could accidentally fall into water and drown. Am I likely to accidentally fall into a moving, driverless car? If I (or someone near me) is having a medical emergency, I'll call an ambulance. If I need to get somewhere local urgently, I'll call a taxi. Given the accident statistics for personal vehicles versus public transport, a strong argument could be made that I'm doing more to save my life by not driving.
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Aug 17, 2017 23:33
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Helen Highwater posted:How is know ing how to drive likely to save my life? I know how to swim because, alongside the fact that swimming is pretty fun, there's a good chance that at some point I could accidentally fall into water and drown. Am I likely to accidentally fall into a moving, driverless car? If I (or someone near me) is having a medical emergency, I'll call an ambulance. If I need to get somewhere local urgently, I'll call a taxi. Given the accident statistics for personal vehicles versus public transport, a strong argument could be made that I'm doing more to save my life by not driving. Whole lot of places in the US require you to be able to drive because public transportation is non-existent and so are taxi services once you get too far from a major city
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Aug 17, 2017 23:42
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Frankly, even if some kind of bizarre "Helen Highwater must drive, the fate of the world depends on it!" situation contrives, they'll probably be able to figure it out. Cars are actually pretty idiot proof.
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Aug 17, 2017 23:52
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Helen Highwater posted:How is know ing how to drive likely to save my life? I know how to swim because, alongside the fact that swimming is pretty fun, there's a good chance that at some point I could accidentally fall into water and drown. Am I likely to accidentally fall into a moving, driverless car? If I (or someone near me) is having a medical emergency, I'll call an ambulance. If I need to get somewhere local urgently, I'll call a taxi. Given the accident statistics for personal vehicles versus public transport, a strong argument could be made that I'm doing more to save my life by not driving. I like how you have the presumption that in an emergency, nothing will have gone wrong with anyone's phones or the cell network in general.
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Aug 18, 2017 00:32
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