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The thing is that Modern Sonic, as nice as he may or may not be, is pretty intensive for how he and his levels play out. The reason why they add in stuff like Classic Sonic or the Werehog is that otherwise his games would be really short. It's not something they really confirmed but I think that's likely a big reason why Colors is a bit slower speed wise than other Boost games and they experimented with stuff like Lost World.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:00
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Paul.Power posted:I guess the problem is that if you just have Modern Sonic then you either end up with a really short or really expensive to make game. True but not every modern Sonic stage has to be just a run fest with huge stages. They can slow it down between acts just like Sonic 1 did.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:01
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SeANMcBAY posted:True but not every modern Sonic stage has to be just a run fest with huge stages. They can slow it down between acts just like Sonic 1 did. That's the thing though. Sonic 1 has very few stages that actively work against how he works mechanically, and those that do are almost universally considered the ones that are the worst in the game (Labyrinth Zone being the case). Modern Sonic doesn't really work when you throttle him because everything about his mechanics favor the high speed obstacle course gameplay. Colors dialed back the top speed a bit and thus it affords being longer, but it has a strong reliance on set pieces and power-up gimmicks that change Sonic's overall gameplay. I still really like Colors and consider it one of the best Sonic games ever made, but there are some results that are mixed. There's always gonna be trade offs to make Modern Sonic work. Whether it's a secondary gameplay style or Colors' approach, he's just too fast and too graphics intensive to avoid compromises in some areas.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:08
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Augus posted:I'm not saying it was *bad* but Sonic Mania makes it look like amateur hour and its gonna be disappointing by comparison. they should make a refined game of just werehog segments
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Aug 17, 2017 19:08
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It was fine in Sonic Generations because they hadn't made a proper Sonic game in forever, but I have a feeling that Sonic Mania is going to make Forces look really bad. They should just have Sonic Team do Modern Sonic and Pagoda West do Classic Sonic and keep them separate now. TFRazorsaw posted:The thing is that Modern Sonic, as nice as he may or may not be, is pretty intensive for how he and his levels play out. The reason why they add in stuff like Classic Sonic or the Werehog is that otherwise his games would be really short. I mean that's true and all, but they went a little overboard in Unleashed and that's why it isn't a good game. They wanted to artificially lengthen the game so people felt "they got their money's worth" which typically means "put in a bunch of grinding and backtracking" and can be a real problem with Japanese games sometimes. Sonic Unleashed would not be a bad game if they made the werehog levels 60% shorter and didn't force you to collect those dumb coins to progress. Yeah, if they did that, the game would be short. So what? I would rather play a game that I can beat in a day that's fun enough that I'll want to play it again vs. a game that's long and tedious that I will never want to return to.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:10
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Zand posted:they should make a refined game of just werehog segments I mean there are like 3 or 4 god of war games aren't there and castlevania lord of shadows too
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Aug 17, 2017 19:13
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God of War for kids with jazz is a pretty good idea on its own. Could have been a Knuckles spin-off.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:15
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Gammatron 64 posted:It was fine in Sonic Generations because they hadn't made a proper Sonic game in forever, but I have a feeling that Sonic Mania is going to make Forces look really bad. I'm not saying Unleashed isn't flawed. I'm saying there's a reason why they keep considering this stuff. You'd play it, maybe. I would too. But a lot of other people would look at the level of content and go "would I really pay 60 dollars for just this many levels?" And from there Sonic Team has to determine how much they want to try and sell this for, because again, Modern Sonic's levels are a lot of work, time, and cost for something people spend varying intervals of 10 minutes on. Modern Sonic has his fans, so obviously there's merit in continuing to use him instead of just, like, making more stuff like Mania over and over and nothing else. But it will always come with either some kind of second gameplay focus, or some kind of compromises. That's just the nature of the beast.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:17
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I'd like to see them tackle Adventure gameplay again, with boost/drift gameplay used to augment the levels and shuttle you from one place to another. Best of both worlds.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:23
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:I'd like to see them tackle Adventure gameplay again, with boost/drift gameplay used to augment the levels and shuttle you from one place to another. Best of both worlds. what you just described is 06's normal gameplay and mach speed sections
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Aug 17, 2017 19:25
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TFRazorsaw posted:what you just described is 06's normal gameplay and mach speed sections G͍̳̜̲̠̫̪ ͍͎͡Ọ̵̭̦̰̞̝͡ ̷̨͖̰̗̳͎͙͝T͟҉̣̠̭̝͝ ҉̻͖͎̙͖̙̹̤̀͡T҉̯̯̻̝͚̝̩̜ ̨̕҉̰̱A̪͕̤͙͚̲̗̩ ̝̗͘͜ ̳̖̲̭́S̥͙͘͟ ̵̩͇͔̤̹̖̰̲P̴̛̼̪͙ ̖̜̪͈̠E҉̙̖͞ ̜͔̮͇͍͎̗E̸͉̫̮̠̘̼̦̖͘ͅ ̜̝͕̕Ḑ̶͍̩̗̲̥̖̗ ̨̪̮̠̬̞̘͝ͅ ̖̦͎͉̤̮̩͜͝U̧̢҉̟̲̩ ͇͔̱̙̟̠͢ͅP̨͓͚͢ It really sucks that Sonic 06's music is good cause otherwise we could just write off the entire game as a pile of dung.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:29
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Detective No. 27 posted:God of War for kids with jazz is a pretty good idea on its own. Could have been a Knuckles spin-off. I have been saying for years that they should've just called Sonic Unleashed "Sonic and Knuckles 2" and replaced the werehog with Knuckles
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Aug 17, 2017 19:30
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TFRazorsaw posted:what you just described is 06's normal gameplay and mach speed sections Don't the Mach Speed sections work a bit differently then Unleashed/Generation's style boost gameplay? Like Mach Speed forces you forward / rushes you, the others just encourage fastness.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:30
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Oxyclean posted:Don't the Mach Speed sections work a bit differently then Unleashed/Generation's style boost gameplay? it's more that they suggested the boost sections be treated like transition between normal Adventure style gameplay, which is more or less what the mach speed sections are.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:32
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Paul.Power posted:I guess the problem is that if you just have Modern Sonic then you either end up with a really short or really expensive to make game. If not both. I wouldn't mind a shorter more polished game honestly
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Aug 17, 2017 19:32
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Zelder posted:I wouldn't mind a shorter more polished game honestly But would you buy it for 60 dollars? Because that's part of the equation too. Just selling it for less doesn't take into account how much it costs to make either.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:34
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Improved my Metallic Madness 1 time by a lot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2VrjJbYZM4
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Aug 17, 2017 19:38
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Kurieg posted:G͍̳̜̲̠̫̪ ͍͎͡Ọ̵̭̦̰̞̝͡ ̷̨͖̰̗̳͎͙͝T͟҉̣̠̭̝͝ ҉̻͖͎̙͖̙̹̤̀͡T҉̯̯̻̝͚̝̩̜ ̨̕҉̰̱A̪͕̤͙͚̲̗̩ ̝̗͘͜ ̳̖̲̭́S̥͙͘͟ ̵̩͇͔̤̹̖̰̲P̴̛̼̪͙ ̖̜̪͈̠E҉̙̖͞ ̜͔̮͇͍͎̗E̸͉̫̮̠̘̼̦̖͘ͅ ̜̝͕̕Ḑ̶͍̩̗̲̥̖̗ ̨̪̮̠̬̞̘͝ͅ ̖̦͎͉̤̮̩͜͝U̧̢҉̟̲̩ ͇͔̱̙̟̠͢ͅP̨͓͚͢ As someone who skipped that tire fire entirely, I was under the impression that 06's problem was more being an unoptimized buggy piece of poo poo with load screens that would have never passed the TRCs if it didn't have a Sonic name on it, more than the level design. (obviously it's possible it was both)
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Aug 17, 2017 19:38
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Gammatron 64 posted:Someone said they couldn't do it earlier, but on PS4, to do level select: Yep, just need to get Debug Mode unlocked to do so, can confirm. ... gently caress what do I do now that I have access to EVERYTHING
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Aug 17, 2017 19:38
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widespread posted:Yep, just need to get Debug Mode unlocked to do so, can confirm. time attack mode
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Aug 17, 2017 19:38
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Whenever I try to look at leaderboards on time attack my game crashes. That sucks
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Aug 17, 2017 19:43
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TFRazorsaw posted:But would you buy it for 60 dollars? Because that's part of the equation too. Just selling it for less doesn't take into account how much it costs to make either. Obviously we're getting into armchair economists territory here, but I imagine a modern sonic only game wouldn't be budgeted at a 60 dollar game. I'd pick up a "sonic forces but with modem levels, no classic" for 40 bucks. Heck, if you combine that with sonic mania it's technically a 60 dollar game!
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Aug 17, 2017 19:53
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Sonic Forces is ALREADY looking to be 40 dollars. Honestly I'm wondering what the story there is.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:04
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:As someone who skipped that tire fire entirely, I was under the impression that 06's problem was more being an unoptimized buggy piece of poo poo with load screens that would have never passed the TRCs if it didn't have a Sonic name on it, more than the level design. Behold Radical Train It was both.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:17
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TFRazorsaw posted:Sonic Forces is ALREADY looking to be 40 dollars. Honestly I'm wondering what the story there is. Wasn't gens 40-50 too?
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Aug 17, 2017 20:18
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Motto posted:Wasn't gens 40-50 too? I'm... not sure actually.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:20
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I think the only recent 60 dollar sonic game is... boom rise of lyric
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Aug 17, 2017 20:24
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I have made a discovery. When playing as Sonic & Tails, you can make Tails fly by tapping Jump while holding Up. This will also make Sonic jump onto him, after which you will be controlling Tails and can fly wherever. This changes everything. Was this... always a thing?
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Aug 17, 2017 20:24
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Fedule posted:I have made a discovery. Not really. You can kinda do it in Sonic 3 & Knuckles but it works like poo poo. In this, it works just like in the Sonic 3 Complete hack.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:28
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Fedule posted:I have made a discovery. this owns and changes everything about my sonic & tails playthrough. i'll toss in a "hey i just learned this": pressing and holding X during time attack does a quick restart. until i learned that i was pausing and hitting Restart which took forever to reset a level.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:28
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Fedule posted:I have made a discovery. No. It was first used in Taxman's remakes of Sonic 1 and 2 for iOS\Mobile. You could also do it all the way back in Sonic 3, but you had to use a 2nd controller to do it.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:29
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Gammatron 64 posted:You could also do it all the way back in Sonic 3, but you had to use a 2nd controller to do it. I meant specifically the ability to do it with only one controller.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:34
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:As someone who skipped that tire fire entirely, I was under the impression that 06's problem was more being an unoptimized buggy piece of poo poo with load screens that would have never passed the TRCs if it didn't have a Sonic name on it, more than the level design. Unoptimized and buggy is putting it lightly, the game could barely even be considered to be past the Alpha stage. The movement and controls were completely broken, Sonic only moved at a single static speed, he would spaz out and veer into a wall at the slightest twitch of the analog stick, and jumping was at a different, much slower speed than running, and was incredibly floaty to boot, so playing the game feels like trying to balance on a tightrope that has just been cut in half by a moustache-twirling villain wielding a giant pair of scissors. The level design was barely functional at best and an incoherent mess at worst. Scripted sections could break entirely if you breathed on them the wrong way and the game overused scripted sections to the point of absurdity. There's this one loop in wave ocan that you need to consistently aim at the right side on, because of you hit it to far to the left it will consistently, always fling you off to your death because the scripted patching doesn't match the shape of the level geometry. The game's manual blatantly lies to you, containing features and abilities that aren't actually in the game because they were never finished. There's a bar in the corner that controls each character's special abilities, except for Sonic, for whom the bar will sit there in the corner of the screen always at full because it doesn't actually do anything because they never programmed his gem abilities to drain energy from the bar. Half of said gem abilities completely break the game in half and spill its organs all over the table, they let you completely ignore every rule that the game tries to make you follow, you can just jump out of bounds by pressing a single button and fling yourself to the end of the stage. It is absolutely absurd. The programming got so bad that the PS3 version had to remove all gondolas from the hub world because apparently their mere presence was enough to make the console poo poo itself. Augus fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 20:36
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Yeah honestly maybe they should go for a different flavor of retro and do a more Sonic Adventure styled game. And yes I know 2006 was basically SA3 but like Augus said, its problem was basically because it was a horrible unfinished alpha of a game that they shoved out the door. Fedule posted:I meant specifically the ability to do it with only one controller. Yeah that was introduced in the Taxman remakes. The Sonic 3 Complete romhack also has it.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:39
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Thoughts from my Knuckles playthrough (all emeralds) Certain bosses are way harder, I almost game overed on Oil Ocean 2 - I could see it getting balance patched to be slightly more forgiving since falling into the oil is a death sentence I loved the alternate level structures such as Mirage Saloon 1 and Lava Reef 2, the Lava Reef 2 boss with the little thought bubble cartoons owned. JOO TAKE MAH EMEROODS The & Knuckles ending is the best thing  PS if you want to farm Emeralds quickly with Knux go to Press Garden 1 Go right, hit the switch to get up to the ledge, go past the two badniks and as soon as you get on the cylinder drop down and go left, jump + glide over the conveyers and a super ring is hidden in the wall on the left You can easily get there from the start of the level in like 26 seconds it owns Beasteh fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 20:40
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Augus posted:Unoptimized and buggy is putting it lightly, the game could barely even be considered to be past the Alpha stage. The retail version of 06 literally is the Alpha build. They hit the deadline, and that had to be done. A better Beta build was used for in-store demos. But we got the Alpha.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:48
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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah honestly maybe they should go for a different flavor of retro and do a more Sonic Adventure styled game. And yes I know 2006 was basically SA3 but like Augus said, its problem was basically because it was a horrible unfinished alpha of a game that they shoved out the door. Yeah, when I said I wanted an Adventure game with boost sections, "also it's not an unfinished piece of ill-conceived horseshit" was somewhat implicit.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:50
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Beasteh posted:Thoughts from my Knuckles playthrough (all emeralds) It's even faster in Mirage Saloon 1 for Knux because there's a special stage like 12 seconds in
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Aug 17, 2017 20:50
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Beasteh posted:
I game overed as Knucks on MS2 and OO2, and OO2 was as far as I got last night before I had to go to sleep and today my Switch version arrived. So I'll probably get back to Knuckles on Switch once i'm finished with my shiny new Sonic and Tails playthrough Also, I love the texturing on Tails' ball form, he looks so amazingly fluffy for some reason.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:52
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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah honestly maybe they should go for a different flavor of retro and do a more Sonic Adventure styled game. Take Sonic's gameplay from SA1, refine and modernize it all the way, take the interactions with slopes and the like that the game kinda already had and build upon them to make Sonic respond to curves and loops in a more natural way that requires less spaghetti-scripting, and then build layered, flowing levels that blend speed and platforming. This was probably one of the best attempts Sega ever made at making a 3D Sonic level https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLSzQpuiYnM From this video (and playing the level, which I can do now thanks to modding) it's easy to see why this level design didn't make it into the final game. The camera and physics weren't advanced enough to keep up with the level design, there are invisible walls and ceilings in the weirdest places, the collision detection was dodgey at best and couldn't really handle sharp curves, like, at all. But a much more polished, fully-functioning version of this stage would absolutely be fun to play. Not perfect, but it's a great place to start. Augus fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 20:52
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