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Crossposting from the Trump thread.evilweasel posted:an evangelical finally decided they weren't cool with neonazis: I was going to chide the evangelical church I go to (I'm agnostic but that's a long story) about evangelicals not leaving Trump's council while business leaders do. However one seems to have left. Better late than never, and evangelicals are one of the few groups that are above 50% approval rating with Trump. If evangelicals turn on him in favor of Pence which is a distinct possibility as he's their guy, a goodly portion of his base could disintegrate overnight. If his entire council leaves him he will be in deep poo poo with the Christians because the narrative of him being "A baby Christian" will disintegrate as well. I remember talking with my pastor and we had a discussion about Trump. He loathes Trump for moral reasons. I remember recounting the story of the bad kings God sent to punish the Israelites. He thought about it, grew contemplative and while he never fully agreed with me I was sure that I'd changed his mind at least a little. Originally I went to church to contemplate morality and while they almost got their hooks into me I've distanced myself emotionally since then. However it's been a strange experience to see how other people who were previously fundamentally alien to me a year ago in thoughts and speech I can now interpret. How I can now engage not only with their outer narrative, but their inner narrative as well without having internalized it save for a few weeks of internal narrative dysphoria. I am now learning how to speak their inner narrative and what's best is that I have a concrete impact by introducing nuance and doubt into the conversation. I don't want to break their faith because that seems needlessly cruel. However help keeping them moderate feels good. About two months ago someone started speaking openly about what's commonly known as the blood libel. The particularly poisonous thought about how Christ was murdered by Jews and therefor Jews are evil and need to pay for killing and rejecting Christ forever. The counterpoint to that argument in terms of history is, "Every time that story gains too much ground in the hearts of Christians means another Jewish massacre. Stop spreading that around. It leads to nowhere good and solves nothing." So despite the fact that I don't really fit in, I'm actively seeking not to be compacted out and instead serve as a moderating voice. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 18, 2017 23:55
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Ice Phisherman posted:speaking their inner narrative I'm from a secular background (dad described himself as a 'Unitarian, I guess' when kid-me asked him about it) but I grew up/continue to live in Eastern Kansas - it ain't the south, but being exposed to a lot of the 'fiscally conservative, socially liberal' mindset has helped me communicate demsoc ideas to republicans without setting off their shutdown defenses so yeah if you grew up around lovely opinions, take heart at least that it gives you the ability to speak their language- thx for the effortpost
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Aug 19, 2017 00:09
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Peanut Butler posted:I'm from a secular background (dad described himself as a 'Unitarian, I guess' when kid-me asked him about it) but I grew up/continue to live in Eastern Kansas - it ain't the south, but being exposed to a lot of the 'fiscally conservative, socially liberal' mindset has helped me communicate demsoc ideas to republicans without setting off their shutdown defenses No problem. I like to effort post. More now. It was going to be an edit but I think it could do with its own post. I knew as a political scientist/sociologist theoretically that people have different ways of communicating. However I never realized how essential that knowing the narrative was to actual communication until recently as I'd never really went out of my way to develop those communication skills. I'm growing to speak a dialect of English that is decidedly Christian. It's not a slang, but an entirely different way of perceiving language. It's like an unseen current. It effects the water on top, but unless you know where it is and how to look for it you'd never know it was there. I'm not sure if I was really ever able to communicate with even moderately compacted Christians at all, and that before they really saw me as nothing but some sinner to be saved. On nearly being compacted into a group. Near miss conversion. So this is a personal story. About a year and a half ago I started on a personal journey towards self improvement. Everything save for my mind I ignored. My body, my moral center, my social skills, my emotions, all ignored. And I've been working diligently to put myself together and have reaped some serious rewards for my diligence. So when I was invited to church I try every few years to see if my tastes change. To me, and yes I was this detached at the time, I was literally thinking in terms of taste. Like I used to hate mayonnaise and now I like it. So the people are nice, the food is free and tasty, they value my opinions as a scientist and amateur historian and they don't want tithes. I figure this will change at some point because they're trying to start up a church, but I'm not particularly interested in huge groups of people as I tend to get lost in the crowd. So I jump in with both feet because the atmosphere is good. I feel myself starting to change at a fundamental level. If I had to describe it, imagine everything that makes you you is a house. In my case it's sturdy because my core is solid as a rational thinker and atheist. Being in this church and among these people, singing their songs and internalizing their dogma was like taking a sledgehammer to the bottom row of bricks in the house that is me. I experienced something probably like a light to moderate narrative dysphoria. I distinctly remember feeling physically nauseous whenever my old beliefs and new beliefs would clash. So I wasn't able to show up for a month because I was fairly ill. I talked to my brother about it near the end and I came to...Well...Not a conclusion, more a hypothesis that is bearing fruit. Everything was changing me. The intelligent and friendly pastor, the fact that I had friends there, the good food, the lack of expectations, the nice people, the meditation on morality, the lessons that I didn't believe in at first but after a while introduced doubt, the fact that I went after a friend of mine died and I was seeking solace. All of it. All of it save for one thing. The singing. Contemporary Christian mostly. Lots of acoustic. However as I look back I have this distinct feeling like it was the singing that was bypassing my rational brain. To use a boxing analogy it was slipping past my guard and striking me where I was weak. I sang and never internalized the lyrics, clearly trying to get me to believe, and never thought about them on a rational level. I repeated them by rote without question because that's what you do with music and despite not having been in choir for twenty years I'm still the same little professional I was when I was a kid when I was an adult when it comes to singing. So I started going again, but in the few weeks since I've gotten back I've both stopped singing and stopped feeling the narrative dysphoria. Looking back I think everything else is essential. The atmosphere, the people, the feeling of safety and warmth I receive, but what bypasses my logic completely is music and me singing it without engaging rationally with it. So I've simply stopped singing. And I know from learning about cults that singing is almost completely essential to any indoctrination attempt. And that's my story. If I feel the dysphoria coming on again most likely I've leave again for a while. I don't desire to have my feelings and morality hijacked by standards of ethics that I don't 100% agree with. However I think I've stopped the one essential delivery system for conversion. Music. Simply by not singing. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 00:21
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Prester Jane posted:SO yeah something definitely well outside the scope of the Narrativist Framework is currently happening in larger society. Holy poo poo  CRISIS ACTORS 
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Aug 19, 2017 00:24
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Ice Phisherman posted:So I started going again, but in the few weeks since I've gotten back I've both stopped singing and stopped feeling the narrative dysphoria. Looking back I think everything else is essential. The atmosphere, the people, the feeling of safety and warmth I receive, but what bypasses my logic completely is music and me singing it without engaging rationally with it. So I've simply stopped singing. And I know from learning about cults that singing is almost completely essential to any indoctrination attempt. A lot of people don't think about the words they're singing because of the performance aspect to it. So when the words don't perfectly mash up it causes that discomfort. Interesting, though, that you avoided it by just listening. I don't think that would work for me.
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Aug 19, 2017 01:25
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Krysmphoenix posted:As a kid who grew up and took every music class ever before college, this makes a lot of sense. Music sticks to people in really deep ways even if it's just acoustic or a foreign/nonsense language. It gets stuck in there. Yeah. I think if I want to keep going there I have to pull out some of the guts of the conversion mechanism or risk becoming a completely different person and having old me and new me war internally over poo poo that doesn't make sense. I'd really rather not. I want my house to be built on rational foundations as a scientist. To my knowledge religion doesn't blend perfectly with science. If my internal house isn't sturdy I'll just have to knock it down continually if I want to build myself up to anything of worth. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. At the same time I like going. Nice people. Thoughtful discussion. Classroom environment with nuanced sermons that aren't just greatest hits bible stories. And so far the hate is minimal and never in the sermons. Not perfect, but I think I'm taking positive things from it, and I don't want to get so caught up in seeking perfection that I never do anything. Also, it looks like Alex Jones just false flagged himself. What a bitch.
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Aug 19, 2017 01:42
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Ice Phisherman posted:While the video was both crazy and stupid, I'm not sure exactly what you were getting at in terms of what that meant. To me it looks like Alex Jones is absolutely crazy and was ashamed and angered at having coffee dumped on him. Thesaurasaurus posted:Holy poo poo I was more commenting on how even the Seattle PD is ripping on Alex Jones. A decade ago Alex Jones was far more welcome in Seattle (largely as a result of the way he covered the WTO protests of the late 90's/early 2000's) and/or unknown. To have the entire city ripping on him from randos on the street to police indicates to me that something interesting is happening here. Also the music discussion is really interesting and is bringing to mind a couple of articles I read circa 2002-ish (no idea how to google the articles up at this point) that dealt with music in mega church's. the first article was written by the head of a service (something along the lines of "congregation expansion services") that had a good track record of transforming regular church's into megachurch's. The author basically explained how his company approached explaining a congregation and there was a quote along the lines of "many church boards are surprised that 70% of our suggestions are centered on purely technical changes to the worship service". This company put extreme emphasis on the audio and visual presentation of the worship service with a heavy emphasis on "getting everyone singing". The second article was written by a stage hypnotist who attended a service at a mega-church (with another hypnotist) on a lark. This author argued that there was a ton of psychological fuckery going on in the worship service (and before) that was similar to what he did as a stage hypnotist. "Induction" is the term hypnotists use to describe the process of gradually coaxing a subject into a suggestive state, and the author argued that there was white noise (I believe of a particular frequency) being pumped through the speakers before the worship service as a way of inducting the crowd into a suggestive state. He also argued that there was an entire science behind using the emotional content of the songs to keep the crowd bobbing up in down in waves of emotion. The idea that singing something can impact our beliefs is an interesting that (I suspect) may dovetail with some existing research out there. Edit: Ice Phisherman posted:Also, it looks like Alex Jones just false flagged himself. What a bitch. It turns out that this guy is an announcer for the "World Extreme Pencil Fighting League". Wikipedia posted:
Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 02:09
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Prester Jane posted:I was more commenting on how even the Seattle PD is ripping on Alex Jones. A decade ago Alex Jones was far more welcome in Seattle (largely as a result of the way he covered the WTO protests of the late 90's/early 2000's) and/or unknown. To have the entire city ripping on him from randos on the street to police indicates to me that something interesting is happening here. The interesting thing is, as always, the internet. I think it's more likely just that their social media team is tuned in to the internet. Some government agencies have realized what some corporations already know - engaging with the public on the public's terms is a big PR win. In this case, the popular culture representation of Alex Jones has shifted from curious but serious to laughably dismissive of him. He's often seen as a comedic grifter, especially on twitter. It's likely that the reference here is not to crisis actors, but to Jones' own testimony from his recent child custody battle, in which he, under oath, stated that his on-air persona is just an act. So in this case, Seattle PD knows their target audience and is able to meme themselves into a viral post. People on the street are another matter, but given where he was walking around, I would be entirely unsurprised by people recognizing him.
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Aug 19, 2017 02:59
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singing is the original language of humans and affects us on a far more primal level than speech, which was a later development
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Aug 19, 2017 03:13
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Krysmphoenix posted:As a kid who grew up and took every music class ever before college, this makes a lot of sense. Music sticks to people in really deep ways even if it's just acoustic or a foreign/nonsense language. It gets stuck in there. I got invited to a free meditation session a while back run by what appears to be some kind of hare krishna offshoot. Fairly harmless, no hard sell or proselytizing, but still a bit culty for my liking. It was pretty chill tbh but the music really put me off because it was exactly like the "mood" music from Pentecostal church prayer/flop around on the ground sessions, but with repetitive hare krishna mantras rather than repetitive refrains of worship. Kinda relevant - I'm reading a book on Classical Nazi Occultism and it's a fascinating reveal of aspects of their inner narrative such as their racist derange cosmologies & biological theories that drove their racist behavior. There's definitely esoteric Hitlerists out there who would definitely be attempting to draw people into their same beliefs/rationalizations for being a loving Nazi in this day and age, but how much actual power and influence they have is questionable.
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Aug 19, 2017 09:17
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Krysmphoenix posted:As a kid who grew up and took every music class ever before college, this makes a lot of sense. Music sticks to people in really deep ways even if it's just acoustic or a foreign/nonsense language. It gets stuck in there. Didn't catch that last part. I think I have some special circumstances due to my unique relationship with music. I'm strange in that I grew up in a house without music. I didn't listen to music as a kid. My only and I do mean only exposures to music were choir and occasionally my dad listening to Dionne Warwick. That's it. Everything else was talk radio growing up. I say this in that they were the only ones with lyrics. I was raised on early video game music and jingles from shows. However that rarely if ever had lyrics as cartridge games didn't have enough room for music that had lyrics. It wasn't until the PS2 era until I had video game music with lyrics. Persona 3 comes to mind. Sufficed to say I was a little alien and had almost no contact with music that wasn't choir or Dionne Warwick until I was in the seventh grade and someone let me borrow, gently caress me, The Great Milenko CD by ICP which I adored but thought it was just a joke band. Anyway, I say this because I think that I grew up with an atypical relation to music until I was in my teens. When I went to church when I was little singing never really engaged with the same feelings as I did with choir even though I was in choir in both church (it was garbage and I got yelled at a lot) or school choir. Music to me was almost never passive unless it was strictly non-lyrical chiptune stuff or game show tunes. So I can listen to most songs and feel nothing. More so now that I'm on guard. Music to me in my childhood was almost always active, not passive. I didn't receive music with lyrics and therefor it doesn't really have the same effect on me. That's my best guess.
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Aug 19, 2017 09:40
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I feel like this should go here: What White Nationalism Gets Right About American History https://nyti.ms/2vOxskh
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Aug 20, 2017 07:09
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Also Uglycat is very much worth engaging. But be careful and get up to speed on your existentialism, especially Sartre.
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Aug 20, 2017 07:20
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Have you seen the Antifa Manual forgery they're handing around amongst themselves? It's striking how the writer was fundamentally incapable of understanding that people disagree with him.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:06
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ErichZahn posted:Have you seen the Antifa Manual forgery they're handing around amongst themselves? It's striking how the writer was fundamentally incapable of understanding that people disagree with him. This sounds fascinating, got a link?
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Aug 20, 2017 20:30
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Prester Jane posted:This sounds fascinating, got a link? Imgur album, eight pics: https://imgur.com/gallery/BcZOg quote:Do not distribute So between that, the clearly faked aging on the cover sheet, the clogged typewriter font, etc, I really don't understand how anyone can be so far gone as to actually believe it's real for even a moment. And that's before you get to the contents!
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Aug 20, 2017 22:02
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McGlockenshire posted:Imgur album, eight pics: https://imgur.com/gallery/BcZOg Hahaha, it even says their goal is "one world government."
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Aug 20, 2017 22:06
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/899411254061694979 Batten down the hatches, storms a brewin..... I'm genuinely concerned about the Tuesday rally now. He is going to dramatically escalate things on Tuesday, that much is a given. He has totally lost control of the media narrative and is being humiliated left and right by all these resignations. He looks weak and he knows it. Tuesday is his chance to make himself look strong to his followers, and he will deliver. (Or at least try too, a profanity laden rage meltdown in the middle of things is possible at this point) Whether he openly incites his followers to start committing acts of violence I place at about 50/50 odds. If he doesn't do it Tuesday, we probably are not that far off. His short-lived tweet of a train hitting a CNN reporter the day after Charlottesville was a signal for violence that thankfully was quickly pulled. But it shows that he is getting close to doing it. Put him in front of a cheering crowd of racists in his current state and he might just go full Hitler on live TV. Edit: McGlockenshire posted:Imgur album, eight pics: https://imgur.com/gallery/BcZOg Haha, this is some idiots of idea of Antifa's Inner narrative. Realtalk: Back when I was a deluded conspiracy theorist I used to toy with the idea of faking some sort of (NWO themed) manifesto like this in order to help wake the sheeple up to the threat they faced. Never went through with it though, too much 
Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 05:51
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Pakled posted:Hahaha, it even says their goal is "one world government." Back when I was a ten year old watching TNG, I always assumed that everyone smart was working toward's a united earth government so we could hurry up and get to the Star Trek future. 
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Aug 21, 2017 06:41
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Beachcomber posted:Back when I was a ten year old watching TNG, I always assumed that everyone smart was working toward's a united earth government so we could hurry up and get to the Star Trek future. Yeah I mean personally I think long-term it'll be best for humanity to unite in a worldwide liberal democracy but the idea that antifa, a group made up significantly, perhaps even mostly, of anarchists wants one world government is laughable.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:29
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Prester Jane posted:Realtalk: Back when I was a deluded conspiracy theorist I used to toy with the idea of faking some sort of (NWO themed) manifesto like this in order to help wake the sheeple up to the threat they faced. Never went through with it though, too much For a few years now, I've wondered if someone already did this with those "Georgia Guidestones."
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Aug 21, 2017 09:53
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Pakled posted:Hahaha, it even says their goal is "one world government." Well, typically they want zero governments in charge of the world, so really they're only off by one.  Paladin posted:For a few years now, I've wondered if someone already did this with those "Georgia Guidestones." I'm a fan of the "probably just Ted Turner" theory, myself.
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Aug 21, 2017 12:56
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Holy poo poo Not only that, Jones and his lawyer tried to win his custody battle by claiming that he's just playing a character on his show and isn't actually insane. Obviously it failed because Jones couldn't stop being insane both in and out of the courtroom.
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Aug 21, 2017 16:28
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So the complete lack of a tweetstorm this morning bodes quite poorly for tomorrow. Trump is storing his rage and anger up and is going to unleash it all once he gets on stage, away from where his handlers can stop him. This poo poo is gonna be wild.
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Aug 21, 2017 16:55
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Prester Jane posted:So the complete lack of a tweetstorm this morning bodes quite poorly for tomorrow. Trump is storing his rage and anger up and is going to unleash it all once he gets on stage, away from where his handlers can stop him. This poo poo is gonna be wild. has something happened to set him off again? I know that he was upset post-Charleston, but I thought that he, for lack of a better term, got his way with the press conference. I know that things have happened since, but I'm not sure what has happened that would trigger him. Even the tweet praising "the protestors in Boston who are speaking out against bigotry and hate" could just as easily apply to the original group of protestors as it could apply to the counter protestors(at least to my understanding of what happened), which I could see leaving him smug enough to last him for a little while. e: and looking at his two tweets from today, they seem pretty upbeat. I'm not going to pretend be an expert of reading his mood or anything, but I am curious to know why you believe that he is upset atm TeenageArchipelago fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 17:21
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TeenageArchipelago posted:has something happened to set him off again? I know that he was upset post-Charleston, but I thought that he, for lack of a better term, got his way with the press conference. I know that things have happened since, but I'm not sure what has happened that would trigger him. Even the tweet praising "the protestors in Boston who are speaking out against bigotry and hate" could just as easily apply to the original group of protestors as it could apply to the counter protestors(at least to my understanding of what happened), which I could see leaving him smug enough to last him for a little while. His tweet from ,last night: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/899411254061694979 He has spent this entire time watching the coverage of him disintegrate whilst feeling incredibly embarrassed that all these councils made up of important people are rejecting him. Those CEO councils rejecting him will have hurt FAR more than anything else that has happened to him thus far. He looks weak right now and he knows it. The only play he knows how to make in this situation is to assert himself by lashing out at someone. Trump has very little impulse control and normally would have lashed out this morning. The fact that he has not indicates that he is choosing to bide his time until a better opportunity to unleash presents itself. Also whatever pressure he is receiving from his inner circle to behave himself is no doubt chafing his ego at this point. The only way for Trump to escape their restraining influence is to be in front of a camera where no one can stop him from doing whatever he wants. (e.g. his unscheduled outburst earlier this week). Trump is going to be out in front of a roaring crowd that will respond with effusive jubilation to him indulging in his worst impulses. And there will be nothing anyone will be able to do in the moment to stop him. Trump is an addict going through withdrawals right now and Tuesday is going to be someone offering him a gigantic hit of the good stuff. He is going to do what every addict does in this situation- get as high as he possibly can. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 17:38
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Prester Jane posted:His tweet from ,last night: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/899411254061694979 I honestly don't know how I missed that tweet when I was looking through his twitter. I saw the stuff above/below it, but missed that tweet entirely. And I also forgot about the rally in Arizona until you just mentioned it. Holy hell this is going to be an exciting week.
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Aug 21, 2017 17:44
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TeenageArchipelago posted:has something happened to set him off again? I know that he was upset post-Charleston, but I thought that he, for lack of a better term, got his way with the press conference. I know that things have happened since, but I'm not sure what has happened that would trigger him. Even the tweet praising "the protestors in Boston who are speaking out against bigotry and hate" could just as easily apply to the original group of protestors as it could apply to the counter protestors(at least to my understanding of what happened), which I could see leaving him smug enough to last him for a little while. Bannon.
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Aug 21, 2017 17:58
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McGlockenshire posted:Imgur album, eight pics: https://imgur.com/gallery/BcZOg Generations of bigots have bought into the Protocols of the Elders of Zion being a real thing despite it basically saying, "we Jews are scheming subhuman monsters whose only desire is to manipulate and control the goy," doesn't surprise me that the authors of this fraud haven't bothered to be any more circumspect or nuanced.
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Aug 21, 2017 18:16
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So, narrativism elements in that speech tonight?? Maddow is on MSNBC right now doing a special live at midnight episode about Trump's declaration of foreverwar in Afghanistan tonight, and she just did a little breakdown on him capitalising Principled Realism as if "it were a song title"
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Aug 22, 2017 05:08
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Prester Jane posted:So the complete lack of a tweetstorm this morning bodes quite poorly for tomorrow. Trump is storing his rage and anger up and is going to unleash it all once he gets on stage, away from where his handlers can stop him. This poo poo is gonna be wild. well looks like there is a way to stop him, he sounded sedated
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Aug 22, 2017 13:59
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Aaaah man I hope this is gonna be good. Pretend I posted the popcorn smiley that I can't remember the word for.
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Aug 22, 2017 15:23
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Cactus posted:Aaaah man I hope this is gonna be good. 
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Aug 22, 2017 15:28
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Goa Tse-tung posted:well looks like there is a way to stop him, he sounded sedated His tox screen right now must look like every single member of Mötley Crüe, past and present, combined.
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Aug 22, 2017 18:05
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I'm going to assume Trump will be satisfied with the press responding relatively favorably to his Endless War speech.
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Aug 22, 2017 18:09
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wrong thread ...this is probably the right thread. Sneakster fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 03:19
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RandomPauI posted:I'm going to assume Trump will be satisfied with the press responding relatively favorably to his Endless War speech. Well you would be wrong.
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Aug 23, 2017 03:27
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drat it
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Aug 23, 2017 03:30
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At least Trump hasn't explicitly called for violence against his political enemies. Today. So far.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:08
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RandomPauI posted:At least Trump hasn't explicitly called for violence against his political enemies. Today. So far. I had to turn it off, even my tolerance for narcissistic bullshit has limits. Glad he hasn't called for violence, hope it stays that way for as long as possible. (The longer he waits the smaller the pool of potentially violent Narrativists will be, although conversely the longer he waits the more radicalized his hardcore base will be by the time he finally crosses that Rubicon.) Also FWIW I think Covok won his Toxx w/r/t Trump pardoning Arpaio, although its not my call to make.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:19
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