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The militia were idiots to bring their guns. All they can do with them is kill people or lose them, neither of which helps during a protest.
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Aug 19, 2017 01:58
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you ever see that video of gaddafi
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Aug 19, 2017 01:59
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Zeroisanumber posted:The militia were idiots to bring their guns. All they can do with them is kill people or lose them, neither of which helps during a protest. The problem isn't that they're idiots. The problem is that they're going to keep doing it, and they have mostly decided that "antifa" is the enemy while silently aligning with the white supremacists.
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Aug 19, 2017 02:00
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gonna lmao really hard if these shows of force end up getting the 2nd amendment dialed back
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Aug 19, 2017 02:01
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you ever see black hawk down
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Aug 19, 2017 02:02
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:The problem isn't that they're idiots. The problem is that they're going to keep doing it, and they have mostly decided that "antifa" is the enemy while silently aligning with the white supremacists. They're already white supremacists.
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Aug 19, 2017 02:05
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:The problem isn't that they're idiots. The problem is that they're going to keep doing it, and they have mostly decided that "antifa" is the enemy while silently aligning with the white supremacists. yeah, there were some articles about some of the militia types going  so the ones who show up are going to be the ones who think this is the beginning of the RaHoWa
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Aug 19, 2017 02:06
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Zeroisanumber posted:They're already white supremacists. Here is an expert saying wrong: https://twitter.com/egavactip/status/898312522423468032 The militia types are more the sovcit group. They definitely have separate origins from raw white supremacists.
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Aug 19, 2017 02:13
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they just also happen to believe that america is a white christian nation for white christians
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Aug 19, 2017 02:14
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:I really dont think enough counter protestors have realized that the game has changed since Charlottesville. Coming with sticks isn't going to do much when quasi-organized militias start responding with lethal force. I think the fact that libertarian militia movements are just now starting to openly fuse with white supremacists movements has vastly raised the stakes recently. One of these events is going to have a death toll in the large numbers of digits if this isn't addressed. there was a lot of crossover between groups in the 90s. the Turner Diaries is basically a militia fantasy.
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Aug 19, 2017 02:38
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the trump tutelage posted:I love reading poo poo like this now when just a few months ago anyone who warned against normalizing political violence was chewed out on these dead gay forums. I'm loving shocked that the whole "punch a quote-unquote nazi" thing helped mobilize a bunch of literal nazis instead of cowing the alt-right into silence. Who could have known???
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Aug 19, 2017 02:52
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Here is an expert saying wrong: Uhhh, a huge portion of the militia/SovCit types trace their origins to Posse Commitatus: Wikipedia posted:The Posse Comitatus (Latin, "force of the county")[1] is a loosely organized, far-right social movement in the United States starting in the late 1960s, whose members spread a conspiracy-minded, anti-government and anti-Semitic message in the name of white Christians to counter what they believe is an attack on their social and political rights.[2] This is why no one was surprised when Bundy started spouting off racist nonsense after the conclusion of the first Bundy Ranch standoff, the entire SovCit movement has always been a veil for white supremacy. The origins of the militia movement are not in any conceivable way separable from white supremacy (there is a reason The turner Diaries are sold at gun shows). What are you even talking about?
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Aug 19, 2017 02:54
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Here is an expert saying wrong: I don't know that guy, but if he's studied them then I can believe it. Still quite a few racist-rear end militias out there.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:00
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Here is Rachel Maddow breaking down the White Supremacist roots of the SovCit, militia, and Posse Comitatus movements. I don't know who that guy you are quoting is but he is making a weird distinction between these groups that has never existed in reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVfZh1iDCYs
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Aug 19, 2017 03:03
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Prester Jane posted:Uhhh, a huge portion of the militia/SovCit types trace their origins to Posse Commitatus: I'm citing an expert on extremism, so I think the assumption here is that you're talking about the section of groups that overlap on the venn diagram, and that's not the whole thing. I know at least one domestic terrorist with a record stretching back to 1987 was at Charlottesville, however one of the main militias there was the Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia which is much newer. From 2008 to 2010, the amount of militias increased by about 8x according to the SPLC:  https://www.splcenter.org/active-antigovernment-groups-united-states If you have literature demonstrating that this new influx of groups are tied to the older militias of the 90s, I would be glad to read it. This stuff is mostly a new area of interest to me.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:04
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:I'm citing an expert on extremism, so I think the assumption here is that you're talking about the section of groups that overlap on the venn diagram, and that's not the whole thing. I know at least one domestic terrorist with a record stretching back to 1987 was at Charlottesville, however one of the main militias there was the Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia which is much newer. What happened in 2008?
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Aug 19, 2017 03:07
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Zeroisanumber posted:What happened in 2008? gay black muslim president??
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Aug 19, 2017 03:08
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Zeroisanumber posted:What happened in 2008? Obama freaked em out
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Aug 19, 2017 03:09
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Zeroisanumber posted:What happened in 2008? A black president that had a dubious stance (to 2A absolutions) on gun rights got elected. If you want to lead this into "The president is black" you're going to have to cite some evidence to back up that causality.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:09
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:I'm citing an expert on extremism, so I think the assumption here is that you're talking about the section of groups that overlap on the venn diagram, and that's not the whole thing. I know at least one domestic terrorist with a record stretching back to 1987 was at Charlottesville, however one of the main militias there was the Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia which is much newer. Please show me an example of a "pure" SovCit group that has no ties to White supremacy. According to your expert it should be relatively trivial to do so. Edit: Notorious R.I.M. posted:A black president that had a dubious stance (to 2A absolutions) on gun rights got elected. If you want to lead this into "The president is black" you're going to have to cite some evidence to back up that causality. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 03:17 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 03:11
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Prester Jane posted:Please show me an example of a "pure" SovCit group that has no ties to White supremacy. According to your expert it should be relatively trivial to do so. https://www.facebook.com/Pennsylvania-Light-Foot-Militia-Laurel-Highlands-Ghost-Company-1436871993221463/
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Aug 19, 2017 03:14
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Zeroisanumber posted:What happened in 2008? Slow-Scan Shep has issued a correction as of 03:29 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 03:15
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I think in your terms, there are two separate narratives here: - The white supremacist groups have a primary inner narative of creating a white ethonostate - The libertarian militia groups have a primary inner narrative of destroying the government I think they will readily compact together and become much more malignant. I think the groups in 2008-2010 were slightly divorced or the white supremacist narrative was more subdued, and it will be resurfacing now.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:16
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:A black president that had a dubious stance (to 2A absolutions) on gun rights got elected. If you want to lead this into "The president is black" you're going to have to cite some evidence to back up that causality. SPLC Good enough for you here? SPLC in July 2009 posted:
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Aug 19, 2017 03:18
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These movements have a huge amount of overlap but there are some pretty hard delinagions between certain parts. For instance there is the "Moorish" sovereign citizen movement which is basically an Afrocentric sovereign citizen movement and obviously isn't white supremacist at all.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:20
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:https://www.facebook.com/Pennsylvania-Light-Foot-Militia-Laurel-Highlands-Ghost-Company-1436871993221463/ You are trolling here right? Did you even click on that link before you posted it? That militia is 100% white males and not only did they attend Charlottesville but people in their page are calling them out for harassing clergy at the protests.    This is your goto example of a SovCit group with no ties to white supremacism? Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 03:33 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 03:29
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I found this which I'm going through now: http://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4744&context=nclrquote:Sovereign citizens (“sovereigns”) can be traced back to a number of radical rightist groups, namely the Posse Comitatus, tax protestors, and more generally, the modern militia movement. These groups share fervent anti-government sentiments, often racist beliefs, and tactics such as abusing the court system to harass public officials. The similarities between contemporary sovereign citizens and the Posse Comitatus, tax protestors, or militias often render them indistinguishable at first glance; however, upon closer inspection it becomes clear that sovereign citizens arose out of these three distinct groups. These groups are Posse Comitatus posted:...A “racist, anti-Semitic, antitax group that believe[d] there [was] no legitimate form of government beyond the county level.” Tax Protestors posted:Tax protestors are a group of anti-government individuals who believe the income tax is illegitimate. Unlike the Posse Comitatus, the tax protestor movement has “no common theological, philosophical, or racial beliefs”; rather, they subscribe to anti-tax theories that are promulgated through books, manuals, and, more recently, the Internet by for-profit theorists. Militia Movements posted:Militias were, at their zenith, bound together by common membership in the Christian Identity movement. Despite this common membership, not all militias held the same racist beliefs as members of Christian Identity; indeed, some militias in the early 1990s eschewed explicit racism. However, by 1994, it became clear that the “links between the [militia] movement as a whole and the haters and racists of America were strong,” despite the efforts of the more tolerant militias. So yes, it is correct to link a lot of these back to Posse Comitatus but there were unrelated groups that fall both in and outside of the white supremacist camps. The narrative of these groups can range from white/christian supremacy to repeal/nonparticipation in taxes/citations (such as income tax) to gun control, etc...
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Aug 19, 2017 03:40
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SHOW ME A SOVCIT DAT AINT RACIST NOW DO IT NOW
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Aug 19, 2017 03:40
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:I found this which I'm going through now: http://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4744&context=nclr According to this the groups would seem to be far more interwoven and harder to practically separate than that earlier Venn diagram indicates. While it is true that some of the groups did have separate roots and there are a few one offs, broadly the movement is (and always has been) quite explicitly racist. Especially at present where groups like the Oathkeepers have split over one of their members trying to arm black people during Ferguson. Edit: I guess what I am really driving at here is that non-racist miltias/SovCits are the exception to the rule and you have to go out of your way to find them. I feel it is a bit disingenuous to present the racism as a component of a few groups instead of being very nearly the lowest common denominator. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 03:51 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 03:46
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With militia groups it's just a matter of how overtly racist they are. I'm sure there's some that aren't necessarily racist and even have diverse members, but I'd bet they're in the stark minority. SovCits of any stripe tend to be really weird and seem to be more proactive outgrowths of conspiracy theorists.
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Aug 19, 2017 03:48
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Inescapable Duck posted:
I very much agree. Modern conspiracy theorists are very much an outgrowth of the John Birch Societies Blue Book of the John Birch Society- which is itself essentially copy-pasted Russian antisemitism with the word "commie" replacing "Jew". (Alex Jones for example claims that the Blue Book is what set him on his path and much of his early material was based around its themes.) Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 04:01 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 03:57
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While an ideological mix, the militias seem generally defensive oriented. The Malheur occupation seemed pretty atypical and the militias by and large are more "get off my land" types. The conflict over the Bundy Ranch involved whether the federal government had authority over public land in Nevada. The caveat here is you get the mix between militias, neo-Nazis and SovCits. Still different I think from the neo-Nazi groups which want to wage aggressive war. I believe the militias when they say they want to act as "peacekeepers" but they're woefully unprepared to do it and it comes across as cosplaying.
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Aug 19, 2017 04:01
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Prester Jane posted:According to this the groups would seem to be far more interwoven and harder to practically separate than that earlier Venn diagram indicates. While it is true that some of the groups did have separate roots and there are a few one offs, broadly the movement is (and always has been) quite explicitly racist. Yeah I feel almost like the presentation of that original claim as a Venn-Diagram is just a poor choice after reading this. While a lot of them may have diverged in purpose from Christian/White supremacy, it's still very much there and latent. I think as they start to intermingle with the confluence made by the memelords, kkk, and militias, the tendencies of the other groups will be quickly activated in each. I feel like we're in for a real powder keg of a time because of that.
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Aug 19, 2017 04:03
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idk what all this nitpicking is but if you stand and march with nazis u deserve whatever poo poo u get
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Aug 19, 2017 04:04
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I cant think of a bigger bunch of cowardly fucks than those ford dealership militia nazi's who are the SAFEST, MOST COMFORTABLE, MOST MATERIALLY WELL OF AND LEAST THREATENED PEOPLE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH but are in such a state of cowardice they have to bring their high powered assault rifles to a loving demonstration these cowardly fucks wouldnt last twelve seconds in any actual stress situation.
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Aug 19, 2017 04:05
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Yeah I feel almost like the presentation of that original claim as a Venn-Diagram is just a poor choice after reading this. While a lot of them may have diverged in purpose from Christian/White supremacy, it's still very much there and latent. I think as they start to intermingle with the confluence made by the memelords, kkk, and militias, the tendencies of the other groups will be quickly activated in each. I feel like we're in for a real powder keg of a time because of that. Al-Saqr posted:I cant think of a bigger bunch of cowardly fucks than those ford dealership militia nazi's who are the SAFEST, MOST COMFORTABLE, MOST MATERIALLY WELL OF AND LEAST THREATENED PEOPLE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH but are in such a state of cowardice they have to bring their high powered assault rifles to a loving demonstration these cowardly fucks wouldnt last twelve seconds in any actual stress situation. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 04:07 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 04:05
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Al! posted:you ever see black hawk down wasn't like a good third of the dialogue in that racial slurs idk i'm mostly pissed that it won the oscar for best editing over memento
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Aug 19, 2017 04:09
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:wasn't like a good third of the dialogue in that racial slurs it's because it came out after 9/11 and it featured killing blacks and browns.
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Aug 19, 2017 04:10
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You know the Alex Jones Coffee Thrower? He's in the local speed metal band BlöödHag.  https://www.decibelmagazine.com/2017/08/18/watch-bloodhag-vocalist-throws-coffee-alex-jones-seattle/
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Aug 19, 2017 04:13
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Calibanibal posted:SHOW ME A SOVCIT DAT AINT RACIST NOW DO IT NOW The few Oathkeepers that went to Ferguson and were like "The situation here is literally why we have the 2nd Amendment and we need to get these people access to guns and training".
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Aug 19, 2017 04:16
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