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Xae posted:There still is. Deciding whether or not a place is "socialist" is going to look wildly different from person to person. There are people who praised the anti-capitalist efforts of the government and who also believe that the Venezuelan economy was never socialist. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the left is mind numbingly fractious and can't even regularly decide on what to call itself. So, yeah, there will be those who will say that Venezuela was always a shining bastion of Socialism until the CIA sabotaged the economy (or whatever other theory they might have, there are many), or that Russia was fertile grounds for a functioning Socialist economy up until Stalin took control. There are also leftists that don't want to emulate or glorify those governments and have practical criticisms of them. Camel Camus fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 18:05
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TyroneGoldstein posted:Trump is essentially a BnT low-born piker from Queens and he always will be to the people who matter in Manhattan. From what I've read, the bigger problem is that Trump constantly violated the rules the NYC elite play by. The appearance of philanthropy is very important in those circles - you're invited to lavish dinners and concerts, you publicly make generous donations to various peoples' pet charities, you get all that back as tax benefits and more importantly hobnob and make connections with your fellow elite since the money you're spending is trivial anyway for you and influence is the real currency at stake. Trump didn't do that. He kept trying to make a buck at such events, refused to spend his money, and constantly tried to style himself "the winner." That's not how the NYC elite plays, and that's why they never even pretended to accept him.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:06
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/JessicaHuseman/status/899297885916991488 URL ends in 1488
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Aug 20, 2017 18:06
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Hollismason posted:It always aggravates me that people fundamentally do not understand what communism is and that neither Russia or China are/ were communist nations. The internet loves comrade duck, a duck that represents the proletariat! *Five seconds later* We regret to inform you that the duck was bourgeoisie Ammanas posted:Nah there was a lot of genuine support for Venezuela, like Cuba, among the far left. Mostly as an anti-American foil, but nonetheless. We've got a pretty large tankie squad in D&D, to be honest.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:11
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Pikavangelist posted:Personally, I feel like conflating racism and mental issues could have some pretty major negative repercussions.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:16
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:China was never rad and cool and there's entire history books about the corruption and straight up murder of Stalin's opponents as he transformed the party into what was essentially a dictatorship. Read a book. ...that became the second most powerful nation one Earth and lasted long after his death with a centrally-planned, communist economy. I mean, yeah, it wasn't pure communism, but America isn't full capitalism either. I'm not going to be some lovely edgelord who posts on the internet about how "Communism could never work because look at every historically communist country," but I'm also not going to be the guy who says they weren't really communist. Ideologically based economic models aren't perfect.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:16
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Cythereal posted:From what I've read, the bigger problem is that Trump constantly violated the rules the NYC elite play by. The appearance of philanthropy is very important in those circles - you're invited to lavish dinners and concerts, you publicly make generous donations to various peoples' pet charities, you get all that back as tax benefits and more importantly hobnob and make connections with your fellow elite since the money you're spending is trivial anyway for you and influence is the real currency at stake.  One of my sponsors from back in the day when my previous band started to tour in a less-lovely tour bus actually told me that! It's all about appearances. How can somebody who basically lived his whole loving life in NYC be that tone-dear? Oh, of course. ART. OF. THE. DEAL.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:17
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Quorum posted:Sadly, you're not allowed to renounce your US citizenship unless you have another country to go back to. Also, it's a really long and involved process, there's forms to fill out and you have to interview a state department official. Related note: I really, really, really want to read Ted Cruz's essay about why he didn't want to be a Canadian anymore.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:18
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Chilichimp posted:but I'm also not going to be the guy who says they weren't really communist. I mean I'm not arguing that? tsa's point was that leftists were totally okay with how all of those countries were going along up until their economies failed which, nah. While they're communist nations you can be a leftist and still think how they structured themselves and what they did to consolidate and keep power were super hosed up well before their economies hit a rough patch. Basically I'm saying tsa's just dumb and you can believe in leftist political structures and theory but also have opinions other than 'Capitalism bad therefore all not-capitalism is good.'
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Aug 20, 2017 18:21
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Chilichimp posted:...that became the second most powerful nation one Earth and lasted long after his death FTFY. At some point there were factories in Russia whose products were worth less than the raw materials they consumed.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:22
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Wark Say posted:
It's about appearances and influence. That's how the American aristocracy works. Trump is the very definition of clueless, hotheaded New Money who desperately wants the respect and welcome of the old society but everything he does makes the Old Money look at him like a lizard creature from Mars while tut-tutting about these upstarts.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:24
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/JessicaHuseman/status/899297885916991488 
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Aug 20, 2017 18:26
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Zopotantor posted:FTFY. At some point there were factories in Russia whose products were worth less than the raw materials they consumed. 
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Aug 20, 2017 18:26
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Zopotantor posted:FTFY. At some point there were factories in Russia whose products were worth less than the raw materials they consumed. Rancher's in the US sometimes feed their animals candy because it is cheaper than corn. Guess what candy is made out of.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:28
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Forgall posted:This never happens under captalism for sure... How is that supposed to be an example? The price of those juice packs likely far exceeds the value of the raw materials.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:28
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Zopotantor posted:FTFY. At some point there were factories in Russia whose products were worth less than the raw materials they consumed. Where do you think you are? Because one of the biggest sectors of our economy, one of the giant bubbles begging to burst and kill the economy, is the kind of tech bro nightmare hell scape that brings the Juciero to life. Or that water cooler you had to use bluetooth and a wifi app to make it dispense water. or that fancy toaster over with None of which will sale well and there will be thousands of overly complicated paper weights sitting in warehouses for years to come.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:31
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TheGreasyStrangler posted:How is that supposed to be an example? The price of those juice packs likely far exceeds the value of the raw materials.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:32
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Paradoxish posted:And the economy is basically okay, depending on what metrics you're looking at and what aspects of the economy you happen to be interested in. It's about where it's been for a few years, which means this is probably about as good as it gets until the next recession. The biggest issues continue to be inequality and wage growth that's far too sluggish, especially when you consider hours worked. Housing costs are also rising extremely quickly in many areas. Unfortunately this time it seems to be less a case of crazy lending and more that we just haven't built anywhere near enough units in areas where jobs exist and people want to live. Lending standards are quick, if extremely painful, things to fix. Fixing the current supply problem involves undoing 60 years of interlocking land use regulations which white baby boomers meticulously crafted to prevent dark skinned people from living near their neighborhoods of single family homes after Shelley v. Kraemer in 1948 rendered "and no black people!" deed restrictions unenforceable.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:33
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Forgall posted:They are worth nothing if nobody's buying. Nah see wasting resources is cool as long as you put a sticker price on the box that's technically higher than the cost to make it.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:33
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TheGreasyStrangler posted:How is that supposed to be an example? The price of those juice packs likely far exceeds the value of the raw materials. The juicer itself originally cost $700 and contains some awful design and engineering. You can get indistinguishable results with your hands or devices that cost far less. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Where do you think you are? Because one of the biggest sectors of our economy, one of the giant bubbles begging to burst and kill the economy, is the kind of tech bro nightmare hell scape that brings the Juciero to life. Don't forget the light bulbs and door locks(!) that stop working if the backing service hiccups.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:34
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Forgall posted:This never happens under captalism for sure... That example proves the opposite, stupid.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:34
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BarbarianElephant posted:The fact that every single communist country ends up a similar sort of police state shithole is sheer coincidence. The difference is though that communist regimes worked out that way because they were terrified of revisionism and backsliding into capitalism. Being on the watch for revisionism is a core of communism, but it doesn't have to lead to bullshit Stalinist purges, massacres, suppression of speech, adherence to dogmatic scientific ideology and so on. It has that in common with capitalism. The violence it inflicts isn't necessary. You can theoretically have capitalism without slavery, exploitation of foreign countries and interference in their politics, Pinkerton strikebreakers, subservience of the public good to profit, etc. However, fascism was designed from day one to work out the way it did. There's no way to be a fascist or do fascism without mass slaughter. Nazi Germany, Fascist Austria, Mussolini's Italy and so on? They tore themselves apart but they didn't water down their ideology. There really is no perfect system. A good one would put pure ideology aside and figure out what works best by drawing on the wide range of political and social ideas available. It would also not be afraid to change things. A society needs a combination of social and economic freedom and opportunity to be able to hold off atavism. It's no coincidence that this poo poo is happening as economic opportunity goes in the toilet.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:35
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Well at least capitalism never killed anyone! e:fb SurgicalOntologist fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 18:35
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coyo7e posted:Such as? Assuming that anyone with mental illness is automatically going to be racist, for one. Additionally, given that a core part of how we define mental illness is how much harder it makes it for someone to function in society, such a conflation will only make it harder to address the systemic impact of racism. People are already eager to go "I'm not racist because I said something nice to one of the blacks"; do we really want to add "I'm not racist because I don't take brain pills" to that category of excuse?
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Aug 20, 2017 18:36
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Chilichimp posted:...that became the second most powerful nation one Earth and lasted long after his death with a centrally-planned, communist economy. Russia had higher economic growth during the 50's and 60's than the US and North Koreans were better off than South Koreans until about the 1970's. But that turned out to be terrible because the gains were all due to over expansion of production capacity and none of it was sustainable. China has managed to do much better, but they've got similar issues with over capacity that they've been unable to deal with and which will probably harm them very soon. It's a consistent problem with centrally managed economies. I imagine we'd see it in centrally managed capitalistic economies, but I don't know if any of those exist. Nazi Germany was kind of one, but we don't have any empirical data beyond 1945 to compare results with.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:37
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Capitalism also causes inefficient resource use! *Posts example of failed product, discusses failed product 
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Aug 20, 2017 18:43
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Cythereal posted:From what I've read, the bigger problem is that Trump constantly violated the rules the NYC elite play by. The appearance of philanthropy is very important in those circles - you're invited to lavish dinners and concerts, you publicly make generous donations to various peoples' pet charities, you get all that back as tax benefits and more importantly hobnob and make connections with your fellow elite since the money you're spending is trivial anyway for you and influence is the real currency at stake. Trump went to a cancer charity In the fall of 1996, a charity called the Association to Benefit Children held a ribbon-cutting in Manhattan for a new nursery school serving children with AIDS. The bold-faced names took seats up front. There was then-Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani (R) and former mayor David Dinkins (D). TV stars Frank and Kathie Lee Gifford, who were major donors. And there was a seat saved for Steven Fisher, a developer who had given generously to build the nursery. Then, all of a sudden, there was Donald Trump. “Nobody knew he was coming,” said Abigail Disney, another donor sitting on the dais. “There’s this kind of ruckus at the door, and I don’t know what was going on, and in comes Donald Trump. [He] just gets up on the podium and sits down.” Trump was not a major donor. He was not a donor, period. He’d never given a dollar to the nursery or the Association to Benefit Children, according to Gretchen Buchenholz, the charity’s executive director then and now. But now he was sitting in Fisher’s seat, next to Giuliani. “Frank Gifford turned to me and said, ‘Why is he here?’ ” Buchenholz recalled recently. By then, the ceremony had begun. There was nothing to do. “Just sing past it,” she recalled Gifford telling her. So they warbled into the first song on the program, “This Little Light of Mine,” alongside Trump and a chorus of children — with a photographer snapping photos, and Trump looking for all the world like an honored donor to the cause. Afterward, Disney and Buchenholz recalled, Trump left without offering an explanation. Or a donation. Fisher was stuck in the audience. The charity spent months trying to repair its relationship with him.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:43
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Where do you think you are? Because one of the biggest sectors of our economy, one of the giant bubbles begging to burst and kill the economy, is the kind of tech bro nightmare hell scape that brings the Juciero to life. Hey Juicero is really stupid but how exactly does Juicero relate to Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple, which are all making obscene amounts of money and actually impact the US economy?
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Aug 20, 2017 18:44
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Central Planners often knew those factories were essentially loss-making (including present-day China) but often were willing to keep them open in order to support the communities they depended on. They also thought price controls (unlike modern-day China) were the best way to get cheaper goods to consumers. In the case of the Soviets, by the 1970s, their only real way to accrue hard currency was through oil/gas shipments which lasted until 1985/86 when the Saudis dropped the bottom out of the market. In comparison, modern-day China has to compete for export markets for its manufactured goods. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 18:44
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Ardennes posted:Central Planners often knew those factories were essentially loss-making (including present-day China) but often were willing to keep them open in order to support the communities they depended on. Repulsive. Vile
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Aug 20, 2017 18:45
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SurgicalOntologist posted:Well at least capitalism never killed anyone! I'm taking a week off from trying to keep capitalism from killing people.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:45
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Boon posted:Capitalism also causes inefficient resource use! Keurig would have been a way better example. Those K-cups are terrible environmentally and they taste like garbage.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:46
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Ardennes posted:Central Planners often knew those factories were essentially loss-making (including present-day China) but often were willing to keep them open in order to support the communities they depended on. For the record, this does happen in capitalism all the time but Folgall hosed it up royally. Especially in multinational or conglomerate organizations, business units may run a loss for a period of time for larger strategic reasons (just like the Russian factories).
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Aug 20, 2017 18:48
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There Bias Two posted:Keurig would have been a way better example. Those K-cups are terrible environmentally and they taste like garbage. Environmental externalities in general are a way better example of a place that capitalism falls flat on its face when it comes to efficient, long term resource distribution.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:49
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The amount if people who don't get the sheet cake joke is staggering.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:49
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Boon posted:For the record, this does happen in capitalism all the time but Folgall hosed it up royally. For example, some argue that the American comic book industry is a loss leading R&D and job creation program for the likes of Marvel Studios 
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Aug 20, 2017 18:50
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Ardennes posted:Central Planners often knew those factories were essentially loss-making (including present-day China) but often were willing to keep them open in order to support the communities they depended on. Yeah US companies do this too for different reasons. There are business segments who only need to not lose too much money, because the larger company wants to keep the braintrust and expertise around. This is for a combination of prestige, preventing competition from getting said employees, and keeping it all moving on the small chance that something gets developed that's completely revolutionary. Or the companies work with the government and want to keep the government happy. Keep Factory XYZ open and we'll give you more contracts.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:51
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bird cooch posted:The amount if people who don't get the sheet cake joke is staggering. It'd be a good joke if she hadn't ended it by saying essentially, "No, I'm not joking. I really think you should literally sit there and do nothing."
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Aug 20, 2017 18:51
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It pleases me to think that if Trump gets forced out of office he will not stop tweeting. Anyone that takes over will have to deal with constant inflammatory nonsense spewing from Trump, as well as idiocy from his supporters. Trump's failed Presidency will become the new Lost Cause for white losers to latch onto.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:51
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Ague Proof posted:Trump went to a cancer charity In the fall of 1996, a charity called the Association to Benefit Children held a ribbon-cutting in Manhattan for a new nursery school serving children with AIDS. The bold-faced names took seats up front. The Trump Presidency in a nutshell.
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