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Guy Goodbody posted:Just because a certain amount of wonkiness is inevitable in a shared universe doesn't mean that it's illegitimate to complain about particularly egregious examples It wouldn't even be that egregious if this stuff had more consistent quality.
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Aug 20, 2017 17:53
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Defenders was incredibly bad. Each of the individual series has many, many low points and poor logic, but there was enough creativity and decent characterization to keep me watching and enjoying it. This was just dumb and bad.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:04
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Luke Cage's power seemed really inconsistent throughout the show. In his own show, goons break their bones when they punch him in the face and he's a completely immovable rock. In Defenders he's getting hit and knocked around by non-supers, the only hit that made sense was when Danny gave him the fist. In the episode where Luke get's drugged, he's coming to but passes out again with a kick in the face.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:12
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"Ok guys, Daredevil is a breakout success! Everyone is screaming it from the mountaintops, people LOVE IT!" "What do they like the most about it?" "Well, the gritty, street-level crime syndicate storyline is believable and grounded so it's really engaging, Vincent D'Onofrio carries every scene on his back, and the fight choreography and blocking is of the highest quality among any action series on television, if not simply the best of its generation." ... "Hmmm, ok, well let's see if we can't capture lightning in a bottle gentlemen! But.. just..." "Yeah?" "Well, what if we ditch the realistic, grounded street-level crime syndicate in favor of a faceless horde of magic ninjas..." "Wait" "And Vincent D'Onofrio was just too engaging so let's just focus on some stonefaced, spooooky stock asian bad guys, but it's critical that they literally never emote." "Sir, please, just read the reviews-" "I also think we should switch up the fight scenes. We need more edits, like a lot more." "Oh God-" "Just cut after cut after cut-" "Squirtle, I'm Dying. I'm Dying, Squirtle." "-after cut after cut with dimly lit dutch angles and lots of aimless Matrix-slow-motion. I mean, we don't want anyone to be able to tell what's going on." "There is no God, life is meaningless." I cannot fathom how hard Netflix screwed the Pooch on these Marvel shows. I'm going in to the Defenders having loved/hated Daredevil, enjoyed Luke Cage, and totally skipped Jessica Jones & Iron Fist. The Luke "MOTHA loving BLACK PEOPLE MUSIC EVERY SINGLE SCENE" Cage thing seems so in your face, compared to the incredibly tasteful, even handed way they curated the Luke Cage soundtrack. Like what if every time Danny and his girlfriend were on screen, this played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJJ8zbdVIiI I just don't understand the in universe explanation for "The character whose literal backstory is 'trained as a martial artist by an elite mountain dojo full of warrior monks for his entire life" is easily the least skilled combatant out of an ex-cop, a private investigator, and a lawyer (who was only trained by one of the same kind of warrior monks)" thing. Do they explain in Iron Fist why he just seems totally ineffective at anything? Like, no joke, in the first 3 minutes, he walks into a shadowy corridor and gets jumped by a ninja, then she disappears down the hallway and he just loving walks right into the hallway again, as if the exact same trap had not been just sprung on him literally moments before. I'll watch a few more episodes, but yeah, Netflix Marvel is the biggest case of wasted potential I've ever seen, because DDS1 show so much promise and I just think they completely gutted everything that was good about it in favor of making it, for lack of a better phrase, more like a comic book and less like a TV show. I like the Matt parts and the Jessica parts, the Luke parts need work, Danny sucks, but he also only has two scenes in Ep1 and both of them feature him being kind of a huge loser, so maybe I'm not supposed to root for him yet? Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 18:29
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Bust Rodd posted:"Ok guys, Daredevil is a breakout success! Everyone is screaming it from the mountaintops, people LOVE IT!" This would have been better - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwBKjK7Xik0. It's so STREET!
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Aug 20, 2017 18:40
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It all seems dependent ln who the showrunner is and oh my god I miss DeKnightBust Rodd posted:"Ok guys, Daredevil is a breakout success! Everyone is screaming it from the mountaintops, people LOVE IT!" 
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Aug 20, 2017 18:41
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I wouldn't be surprised if they thought letting completely unaccomplished and underqualified directors/showrunners would work for TV, because it did (commercially) for Marvel movies, which has gotten us to where we are now. Getting DeKnight was just a lucky fluke. Wouldn't be surprised if we can thank him for Eka Darvile on JJ.
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Aug 20, 2017 18:56
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ufarn posted:I wouldn't be surprised if they thought letting completely unaccomplished and underqualified directors/showrunners would work for TV, because it did (commercially) for Marvel movies, which has gotten us to where we are now. Poor guy was just lost after Barca died.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:33
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Demiurge4 posted:Luke Cage's power seemed really inconsistent throughout the show. In his own show, goons break their bones when they punch him in the face and he's a completely immovable rock. In Defenders he's getting hit and knocked around by non-supers, the only hit that made sense was when Danny gave him the fist. The resurrected Elektra also has elevated levels of strength, so her knocking out a weakened Luke is quite believable. I mean moments before she kicks Matt with such force he slams into a wall and passes out, then grabs Jessica and throws her against a wall and knocks her out. Bust Rodd posted:I just don't understand the in universe explanation for "The character whose literal backstory is 'trained as a martial artist by an elite mountain dojo full of warrior monks for his entire life" is easily the least skilled combatant out of an ex-cop, a private investigator, and a lawyer (who was only trained by one of the same kind of warrior monks)" thing. Do they explain in Iron Fist why he just seems totally ineffective at anything? Like, no joke, in the first 3 minutes, he walks into a shadowy corridor and gets jumped by a ninja, then she disappears down the hallway and he just loving walks right into the hallway again, as if the exact same trap had not been just sprung on him literally moments before. It makes total sense that he got his rear end whooped by Matt, who has super senses that help him anticipate/predict his opponent's next move. Matt is also able to keep his emotions in check, whereas a lot of the time, especially after taking a hit, Danny just lashes out in anger, which obviously puts him at a severe disadvantage.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:33
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I don't understand the notion that Netflix Marvel completely lost the tree after Daredevil season 1. I mean. I thought Jessica Jones season 1 was amazing. For whatever your opinions of LC, IF, and Defenders are, I don't understand why JJ keeps getting lumped in there as one of the shows that fell off after DeKnight's departure, especially after all the acclaim it got when it first came out.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:37
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Jessica Jones wasn't everyone's cup of tea. Season 1 of DD was very finely crafted stock superhero fare. JJ—and the first half of Luke Cage for that matter—were less superhero stories and more stories that happened to have a super powered person as the protagonist. The themes and focus were different, and some people didn't like that. Either because they thought it was too different, or because they thought the differences were done poorly. For the record, I think these people are crazy. JJ and the bits of Luke Cage before Diamondback shows up are on par with most of DD season 1 in my opinion.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:If The Hand is a giant globe spanning organization that has existed for thousands of years, and is capable of destroying New York City and completely covering it up because they have influence literally everywhere, why the gently caress was the Kingpin able to order them around? I don't think Kingpin was able to order them around. Nobu succumbed to his sense of honor, wanting to take care of the task himself. Gao, however, clearly wasn't ordered around by Fisk. Of course if DD S1 meant for her to be Hand, that's a whole other issue.
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Aug 20, 2017 19:57
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Double post.
notthegoatseguy fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 19:57
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Skippy McPants posted:Jessica Jones wasn't everyone's cup of tea. Season 1 of DD was very finely crafted stock superhero fare. JJ—and the first half of Luke Cage for that matter—were less superhero stories and more stories that happened to have a super powered person as the protagonist. The themes and focus were different, and some people didn't like that. Either because they thought it was too different, or because they thought the differences were done poorly. I think the main reason a lot of people didn't like JJ is because its core theme was much darker than that of others. Rape is an uncomfortable topic as it is, and the main character is trying to cope with being a victim throughout the show. It's quite different than "blind lawyer who ventures out at night to fight crime" or "bulletproof black man takes on the Harlem mob" or even "rich kid raised by monks returns to NYC to fight corporate corruption".
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Aug 20, 2017 20:19
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enraged_camel posted:I think the main reason a lot of people didn't like JJ is because its core theme was much darker than that of others. Rape is an uncomfortable topic as it is, and the main character is trying to cope with being a victim throughout the show. It's quite different than "blind lawyer who ventures out at night to fight crime" or "bulletproof black man takes on the Harlem mob" or even "rich kid raised by monks returns to NYC to fight corporate corruption". well that and that one of the villains (nuke) is pretty much correct throughout the whole time in how to deal with purple man while JJ/trish refuse to listen to him
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Aug 20, 2017 20:27
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Something interesting (sort of (not really)) that I noticed Bakuto is originally from south america, so given how old all the fingers are supposed to be he should be indigenous. If he'd been fighting with an obsidian studded club that would have been a lot better than another generic ninja.
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Aug 20, 2017 20:38
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Demiurge4 posted:Luke Cage's power seemed really inconsistent throughout the show. In his own show, goons break their bones when they punch him in the face and he's a completely immovable rock. In Defenders he's getting hit and knocked around by non-supers, the only hit that made sense was when Danny gave him the fist. Jessica seems more inconsistent. She can pull a car without much effort/silently and snap the chain of a tow truck. But she punches a dude and he just stumbles back.
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Aug 20, 2017 20:39
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mastershakeman posted:well that and that one of the villains (nuke) is pretty much correct throughout the whole time in how to deal with purple man while JJ/trish refuse to listen to him This is one of the most common criticisms of the show, and also one of the least valid. In addition to vigilante murder being, you know, wrong and all Jessica's goal isn't to just stop the Purple Man but to show the world what he is and what he's done. If you're paying attention, you might notice that that ties into the show's theme of dealing with sexual assault, and how hard it often is to get anyone to acknowledge that a crime has even happened. Classtoise posted:Jessica seems more inconsistent. It's mentioned a few times, in Defenders and both of their individual series, that Luke and Jess pull their punches to avoid killing people outright. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 20:41
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Skippy McPants posted:This is one of the most common criticisms of the show, and also one of the least valid. In addition to vigilante murder being, you know, wrong and all Jessica's goal isn't to just stop the Purple Man but to show the world what he is and what he's done. If you're paying attention, you might notice that that ties into the show's theme of dealing with sexual assault, and how hard it often is to get anyone to acknowledge that a crime has even happened. right, and she fails repeatedly until the person she's trying to rescue kills herself. jessica's plan is to reveal purple man, get whatshername exonerated, all that stuff, and everyone would've been much better off just vigilante murdering him from the getgo it's not a misunderstanding, it's that her plan isn't ever thought through properly
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Aug 20, 2017 20:43
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But that's hindsight. Not jumping straight to the vigilante murder when there are valid alternatives is what a sane person does. It's why Castle is a nutjob and a villain in all but name.
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Aug 20, 2017 20:46
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thebardyspoon posted:Don't think you can blame the hand being lame on Iron Fist. They've made a complete mess of it throughout Daredevil, Iron Fist and this, it's baffling since they presumably had the broad strokes planned out since the end of Daredevil season 1 but their motivations seem completely different in each show (and in the individual seasons of Daredevil). The whole Black Sky thing is especially bizarre, wasn't the one Stick killed in Season 1 of Daredevil a little kid? From an interview with the Defenders showrunner, there seemed to be very little communication or coordination between showrunners about the big stuff. They each just took what earlier shows did and did their own thing with it.
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Aug 20, 2017 20:49
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It's also not really fair to call that a flaw in the writing because there are narrative and character driven reasons for them to want to do things another way. Like, maybe it ends up being a bad idea in the end, sure. But characters have a reason for doing the things they do and what may or may not objectively be the most intelligent isn't what they're going to do, especially if they have reasons that are important to THEM to do it differently.
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Aug 20, 2017 20:52
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I am about 6 episodes in and I am glad they allowed Calter to lighten up Luke a bit. He doesn't feel as stiff as he did in his series.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:00
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TFRazorsaw posted:It's also not really fair to call that a flaw in the writing because there are narrative and character driven reasons for them to want to do things another way. Like, maybe it ends up being a bad idea in the end, sure. But characters have a reason for doing the things they do and what may or may not objectively be the most intelligent isn't what they're going to do, especially if they have reasons that are important to THEM to do it differently. Also a core trait of JJ is that she doesn't really ever have a plan and fucks up constantly so, you know
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Aug 20, 2017 21:01
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It would've also solved Luke's problems if he had just walked over and effortlessly snapped Cottonmouth's neck at the start. It's a comic book show. What would be the Punisher's character if every superhero were the Punisher?
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Aug 20, 2017 21:06
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A LOT of superhero stories are based entirely around the concept that yeah it would just be easier to kill the bad guy but let's not do that.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:07
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While Diamondback is a little silly, I don't really get the dislike for Luke Cage in general. I really loved how unashamed it was of being an incredibly black show, from the amazingly well curated soundtrack, to the Method Man cameo, down to the details like the kind of poo poo Luke's got in his medicine cabinet. And yet it was still a great show to watch and enjoy even if you are not a poc, which I am not. I think that it helps that despite some dark moments, it was probably the most hopeful and least cynical of all the Marvel Netflix shows, and it seems to bode well for the idea of Luke and Danny being paired up in the future.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:12
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Just finished episode 8 Netflix Marvel: 9/11 Was an Inside Hand Job
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Aug 20, 2017 21:33
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I think if I'd never read the immortal iron fist that I'd have no problems with Danny's characterization. It's also bizarre to me that he can't fight the iron fist itself is also shown to be supremely powerful.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:38
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Luke Cage was just a simultaneously good and bad show. Everything worked in the first half. The second half was just too dominated by a terrible villain and boring ways to counter Luke.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:40
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DrNutt posted:While Diamondback is a little silly, I don't really get the dislike for Luke Cage in general. I really loved how unashamed it was of being an incredibly black show, from the amazingly well curated soundtrack, to the Method Man cameo, down to the details like the kind of poo poo Luke's got in his medicine cabinet. Those aren't the elements that people are complaining about, though (in this thread, anyway). The complaints I've seen usually have to do with Diamondback being an uncompelling character, the magic bullets undercutting the show's themes, or the weirdness of Harlem rooting for the police to shoot Luke Cage.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:49
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I thought defenders was a fun show and p deece overall
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Aug 20, 2017 21:57
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enraged_camel posted:The resurrected Elektra also has elevated levels of strength, so her knocking out a weakened Luke is quite believable. I mean moments before she kicks Matt with such force he slams into a wall and passes out, then grabs Jessica and throws her against a wall and knocks her out. And, I am sure, negatively impacts his ability to focus his chi, which is why he gets one unreliable fist, as opposed to WWII's badass Iron Fist.
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Aug 20, 2017 21:57
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Mooseontheloose posted:I am about 6 episodes in and I am glad they allowed Calter to lighten up Luke a bit. He doesn't feel as stiff as he did in his series. Agreed. Mike Colter strikes me as a really likeable guy you could go grab a beer (or coffee, depending on how you roll) with. He's done well moving that over to Luke in Defenders.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:02
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Though what was up with matt straight up quoting star wars and no-one mentioning it in either ep 7 or 8
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Aug 20, 2017 22:25
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4 episodes in and I'm really enjoying everyone dunking on Iron Fist. Even the fight between IF and Luke Cage was filmed as a dunk on him.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:31
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I enjoyed Defenders. It had some pacing issues, I was disappointed by Alexandra and the "five fingers" in general, and the final fight was a little underwhelming. It had its flaws like most of these shows. But all in all I enjoyed it, had a number of pump fisting moments, and it set up some potentially fun stuff down the road like Danny as Daredevil (which should hopefully lead to him becoming proper costumed Iron Fist), Heroes for Hire, and Daughters of the Dragon. I liked everything about the team coming together, the development of Luke and Danny's relationship, the handling of Jessica and Luke's reunion, everyone's general bemusement at Danny's mix of naivety and idealism. I liked most of what they did with the sidekicks. Colleen refusing to stand aside and forcing her way into the Defenders, Misty getting kind of sucked in while trying to do her job and suffering for it, Patsy trying to do something useful while not being forced into the Hellcat role when she wasn't really ready, and Claire naturally just ending up the middle of things as she always does. Most of the misses tended to be DD related, oddly.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:39
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Guy Goodbody posted:Just because a certain amount of wonkiness is inevitable in a shared universe doesn't mean that it's illegitimate to complain about particularly egregious examples I'm not saying it doesn't matter because it's okay that the writing was terrible. I'm saying it doesn't matter to the people who put the world together, because it's just as prone to becoming disjointed as the source material. Kingpin was the primary antagonist in DD1, therefore he was the shot caller. Whatever flimsy plot justification exists in the end, in shared universes they're always going to defer to the character beats and overall intent, logic be damned.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:42
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Does anyone believe Gao is really dead?
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Aug 20, 2017 22:45
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Hakkesshu posted:Also a core trait of JJ is that she doesn't really ever have a plan and fucks up constantly so, you know And JJ really wants to take Purple Man alive so she can prove his powers are real and that he forced his victims to do what they did. Minus the mind control, that whole "But how do we know you didn't want it?" line is a very real problem in sexual assault cases. What Jessica wants is to prove that no, she and the rest of Purple Man's victims did not want it and it absolutely was an act of coercion. Nuke just wants to kill him for "justice" while ignoring that the victims want closure and for the world to take their victimhood seriously.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:47
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