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Grouchio posted:The article I was reading thought that it was Betancourt, his socialism and the nationalization of the Oil fields that did Venezuela in: https://mises.org/blog/venezuela-chavez-prelude-socialist-failure God loving drat you for making me agree with Bob on something.
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Aug 22, 2017 01:41
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It's true Venezuela's oil industry has been mismanaged/neglected so badly since nationalization that it's in shambles but I would not point to that as THE problem. I mean I guess if some international oil companies were competently running the oil industry it might make enough money to keep the kleptocracy afloat, but things would still not be great for most people just not starvation levels like they are now.
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Aug 22, 2017 01:43
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fishmech posted:Rómulo Betancourt died in 1981 before the oil industry was fully nationalized under PDVSA in the 80s, and had been out of power for a long time. And Venezuela had done quite well through many years after that and even well into the Chavez administration which started in 1999. And needless to say, PDVSA's downfall started the second Chavez took its autonomy in retaliation for the well-demonized 2002 Strike, turned a good chunk of its higher engineers and managers into pariahs and made what was left of the company into his personal blank check... Anyways, I don't want to delve too deep in that topic I'm more distracted by the fact we (as in my family and some friends) managed to have my sister shipped to Florida this Saturday and things are being the very definition of "Out of the Frying Pan, and into the Fire".
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Aug 22, 2017 02:05
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AstraSage posted:And needless to say, PDVSA's downfall started the second Chavez took its autonomy in retaliation for the well-demonized 2002 Strike, turned a good chunk of its higher engineers and managers into pariahs and made what was left of the company into his personal blank check... Eh Florida's hosed up but you can get basic services and are actually very unlikely to be killed.
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Aug 22, 2017 02:22
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AstraSage posted:Anyways, I don't want to delve too deep in that topic I'm more distracted by the fact we (as in my family and some friends) managed to have my sister shipped to Florida this Saturday and things are being the very definition of "Out of the Frying Pan, and into the Fire". I'm glad she's finally out! I saw a few more stories about Venezuelans being turned back from Mexico after you mentioned it last time and it loving sucks.
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Aug 22, 2017 02:24
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AstraSage posted:Anyways, I don't want to delve too deep in that topic I'm more distracted by the fact we (as in my family and some friends) managed to have my sister shipped to Florida this Saturday and things are being the very definition of "Out of the Frying Pan, and into the Fire". If you don't mind me asking, where in FL ? I live in southwest FL (somewhere between Tampa/Naples) right on the coast  . There's even a Florida thread in LAN: YCS if you/she has any Florida specific questions.
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Aug 22, 2017 02:26
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Feinne posted:Yeah seriously anything from Mises needs to be taken with a whole loving mine of salt. Typical leftist, sending someone you disagree with to the salt mine. 
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Aug 22, 2017 03:34
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AstraSage posted:And needless to say, PDVSA's downfall started the second Chavez took its autonomy in retaliation for the well-demonized 2002 Strike, turned a good chunk of its higher engineers and managers into pariahs and made what was left of the company into his personal blank check... By shipped do you mean legally or illegally?
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Aug 22, 2017 04:31
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Typical leftist, sending someone you disagree with to the salt mine. Hey if it's good enough for all the children Mises contributors want to put into forced labor it's good enough for them.
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Aug 22, 2017 05:28
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Every piece of news breaks my loving heart, seriously. Remember when ¡Ni un paso Atras! meant something? Well it meant something before Hugo died of well deserved rear end cancer. I just didn't expect his bus driving loving mongoloid vice president to hold on to power this long. I hope he loving dies, and power vaccum and all, I mean it.
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Aug 22, 2017 05:34
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Xae posted:The problem was more that using Socialism as a distraction Chavez and Maduro looted the country of everything of value. When the previously existing wealth of the country was looted they seized control of the means of generating wealth, the companies, and then looted them. Once they had looted the present and current wealth of the country Maduro took out loans against the future wealth (oil revenue) of the country to loot that too. This jives with what I've seen. Prior to the crash in oil, Venezuela was bringing in income, but rather than saving then, Maduro and co went hard into exploiting the good times. So they were extra dependent on oil revenue when the crash happened, and it devastated the economy.
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Aug 22, 2017 09:35
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Grouchio posted:The article I was reading thought that it was Betancourt, his socialism and the nationalization of the Oil fields that did Venezuela in: https://mises.org/blog/venezuela-chavez-prelude-socialist-failure  Well, congrats on making this thread agree with Bob le Moche about something, I guess.
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Aug 22, 2017 09:58
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Bob le Moche posted:You might want to look up what the "Mises Institute" is, how it was founded, where it gets its funding, etc.... This is probably the only 100% accurate post Bob has made in this thread.
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Aug 22, 2017 11:16
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Two days ago, Jorge Rodriguez was walking in Mexico City with his mother and his two children when he was confronted by an angry Venezuelan. The interaction was captured in two clips, which are mashed into one video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIojodwD1XM Here's my translation: quote:Man: Are you going to run away? Rodriguez is one of the most hated figures in the PSUV. He's the mayor of the Libertador municipality, and whenever Maduro names a commission or initiative he's usually in the running to head it. I believe that he was in charge of the Constituent Assembly campaign. You might remember him as the man who laughed on camera during a press conference when a journalist asked him about the ~15 people who died in protests that day, and said that it was "a lie" that people had died. He also had (has?) a really sinister TV show called La Politica en El Divan (Divan Politics). Before becoming a real-life Bond villain, Rodriguez was trained as a psychiatrist, and in the show he'd play up the intellectual image to spew all kinds of hate and lies. Jorge's sister is Delcy Rodriguez, who is equally if not more hated than her brother. Delcy was the foreign affairs minister for many years and is famous for telling the OAS that "there is no humanitarian crisis" in Venezuela while the country suffered from its worst humanitarian crisis in living memory, and for being the president of the Constituent Assembly. Three other bits of news:
Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Aug 22, 2017 |
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Aug 22, 2017 12:51
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Volkerball posted:This jives with what I've seen. Prior to the crash in oil, Venezuela was bringing in income, but rather than saving then, Maduro and co went hard into exploiting the good times. So they were extra dependent on oil revenue when the crash happened, and it devastated the economy. It wasn't just Maduro. Chavez' whole public policy was to spend every single cent as soon as it hit the pocket in order to maintain popularity. That was not and still is not a successful economic system; that's just a spending spree. This is not to mention, of course, that of the 1 trillion dollars that came in between 2000-2014 (thereabouts) it is estimated that about a third of that got lost to corruption. This crash has been a long time coming for now. e to add: greetings to the fellow venegoons. I thought I was the only one but then I read fnox's (incredible) story in the Greatest Sagas thread and was pleasantly surprised to find I was not alone
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Aug 22, 2017 12:54
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Chuck Boone posted:Rodriguez is one of the most hated figures in the PSUV. He's the mayor of the Libertador municipality, and whenever Maduro names a commission or initiative he's usually in the running to head it. I believe that he was in charge of the Constituent Assembly campaign. You might remember him as the man who laughed on camera during a press conference when a journalist asked him about the ~15 people who died in protests that day, and said that it was "a lie" that people had died. You forgot to mention their father was a guerilla member and criminal who masterminded the kidnapping an American citizen in his home, as the man was with his wife and three children, accusing him of being a member of the CIA. Jorge Antonio threatened to murder him before being captured by DISIP (which is now known as SEBIN) agents. He was allegedly killed after being tortured by DISIP agents, which really speaks volumes about Jorge Rodriguez as a person seeing how he's allowing the government to do exactly the same to innocent students who never kidnapped or hurt anybody. fnox fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Aug 22, 2017 |
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Aug 22, 2017 14:21
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Furia posted:e to add: greetings to the fellow venegoons. I thought I was the only one but then I read fnox's (incredible) story in the Greatest Sagas thread and was pleasantly surprised to find I was not alone Not to make this thread about fnox, but can I get a link to this?
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Aug 22, 2017 14:25
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Furia posted:It wasn't just Maduro. Chavez' whole public policy was to spend every single cent as soon as it hit the pocket in order to maintain popularity. That was not and still is not a successful economic system; that's just a spending spree. We're everywhere. Watching. Eating arepas. Matando tigres. Where are you at? Welcome to the thread, compatriota.
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Aug 22, 2017 14:26
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Maduro is giving a speech today at noon EST time that I think might have something to do with those "society-shaking" measures he said he was going to take. The government is playing up the address as "an international press conference", which I think just means that it'll be streamed online? I don't know. The Minister of Communication even tweeted this helpful schedule yesterday, showing the times at which the speech would be broadcast in Mexico City, London, Madrid and Moscow times so that the entire peoples of the earth would know exactly when to turn on their TVs to catch the speech: https://twitter.com/VillegasPoljak/status/899790528098828288 If you want to catch the speech, you'll probably be able to watch it here. fnox posted:You forgot to mention their father was a guerilla member and criminal who masterminded the kidnapping an American citizen in his home, as the man was with his wife and three children, accusing him of being a member of the CIA. Jorge Antonio threatened to murder him before being captured by DISIP (which is now known as SEBIN) agents. He was allegedly killed after being tortured by DISIP agents, which really speaks volumes about Jorge Rodriguez as a person seeing how he's allowing the government to do exactly the same to innocent students who never kidnapped or hurt anybody.  thanks for pointing all of that out. Furia posted:e to add: greetings to the fellow venegoons. I thought I was the only one but then I read fnox's (incredible) story in the Greatest Sagas thread and was pleasantly surprised to find I was not alone Epale, camarada! Bienvenido!
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Aug 22, 2017 15:51
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Chuck Boone posted:Maduro is giving a speech today at noon EST time that I think might have something to do with those "society-shaking" measures he said he was going to take. The government is playing up the address as "an international press conference", which I think just means that it'll be streamed online? I don't know. The Minister of Communication even tweeted this helpful schedule yesterday, showing the times at which the speech would be broadcast in Mexico City, London, Madrid and Moscow times so that the entire peoples of the earth would know exactly when to turn on their TVs to catch the speech: I like how they dressed him up. It looks like one of those glamour shots you could get taken at an Olan Mills portrait studio in a Kmart. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 01:00
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Luisa Ortega Diaz left Colombia yesterday via Panama and is in Brazil today for a meeting of regional legal civil servants. She released a written statement yesterday suggesting that she would reveal some of the information that she has linking Maduro/other government officials to the Odebrecht corruption scandal. This is her statement:quote:As attorney general of Venezuela, I will take part in the Mercosur Meeting of Attorney Generals and Procurators which will take place in Brazil on Wednesday. During his speech yesterday, Maduro called on Interpol to arrest and extradite Ortega Diaz. I don't know what the procedure is for getting someone on their "Wanted" list, but it'll be interesting to see if Interpol responds to Maduro's call. MullardEL34 posted:I like how they dressed him up. It looks like one of those glamour shots you could get taken at an Olan Mills portrait studio in a Kmart. Ha! He ended up wearing this yesterday, minus the sash and medals:  (Side note: the woman to Maduro's left is Gladys Gutierrez, who was the president of the Supreme Court from 2013 to February of this year. She just sort of faded into obscurity. I'd heard rumours that she was dealing with a really serious illness, but I haven't heard a word about her since she stepped down earlier this year) I'm not sure what that style of shirt is called. Collarless shirt? Anyway, that's what he was rocking yesterday. By the way, he ended up not talking about the price control measures he hinted at on Tuesday. I could only stomach about 5 minutes of the speech (he spoke for more than two hours), but it was essentially on the global conspiracy against Venezuela. At one point he also said that there would be presidential elections next year even if Donald Trump led a marine invasion of Venezuela from the front: quote:Even if Trump personally heads an invasion of Venezuela, there will be presidential elections in 2018. Even if Trump shows up dressed like a marine. No one can stop the presidential elections of 2018, not even a general strike by the opposition.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:04
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Chuck Boone posted:I'm not sure what that style of shirt is called. Collarless shirt? Anyway, that's what he was rocking yesterday. Looks like the kind of shirts that Mao, Chinese communists and their foreign fans were fond of back in the day.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:10
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Chuck Boone posted:
Holy poo poo he's literally a caricature of a villain. "Stop criticizing me or I will punish these innocent children!"
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Aug 23, 2017 13:29
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This thread is really informative (except for the occasional morons). Thank you guys. I hope you and your families are all fine. I have a naive question. Does donating to a charities have a chance of doing any good? I found some charities that are collecting money to provide medical supplies and food for Venezuela, but are they even able to operate anymore? If I donated somewhere, would the supplies even reach those who need them, or would they just be most likely stolen or not allowed into the country at all?
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Aug 23, 2017 16:02
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Luisa Ortega is letting it all out. Odebrecht deposited 100 million dollars into a company in Spain owned by Diosdado's Cousins. The company in Mexico that is contracted to give out free food to people suffering in the crisis (CLAP Bags which are also used to control the populace) is owned by Maduro.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:16
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JailTrump posted:People were talking earlier about why the military doesn't take any action. Is there an English version of this, or can someone please provide a good summary of it? I find this concept fascinating and while I guess I've been "Aware" of it, in the sense that dictatorships often turn their military into an economic tool, but I've never really seen it spelled out in Venezuela
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Aug 23, 2017 17:38
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JailTrump posted:Luisa Ortega is letting it all out. Here are some of her statements: On Maduro This allegation is particularly sinister because it suggests that Maduro is personally profiting from the food shortages, as in, "The more people go hungry, the more money I make". This is because the CLAP bags that the government sells at subsidized prices to hungry people come from a Mexican company, which Ortega Diaz alleges belongs to Maduro. While she didn't provide details on the corruption scheme, you can easily imagine a simple one: the company charges the Venezuelan government $10 dollars for a box of food that actually costs $5, and Maduro pockets the rest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j7p0lmsMrc quote:Ortega Diaz: ... we are investigating the bags of food that are distributed in Venezuela: the CLAP [boxes/bags]. There is a company registered in Mexico under the names of two people. The company is called [unintelligible -- it sounds like she's saying "Gross Grand Limited", but NoticieroDigital is reporting the name as Group Grand Limited]. EDIT: It turns out that Maduro approved $340 million in state funds to pay Group Grand Limited for the CLAP boxes in April of this year. On Cabello This allegation is shocking simply because of the sum involved. As far as I'm aware, authorities are only aware about $788 million in dirty money from Odebrecht, which means that (if the allegations are true), Diosado Cabello is probably the single largest beneficiary of the corruption scheme. https://twitter.com/vivoplaynet/status/900364267978858497 quote:Ortega Diaz: In the Odebrecht case, we have detected that Diosdado Cabello received a deposit of $100 million dollars through a Spanish company called TSA Arietis, which is owned by his cousins, Luis Alfredo Campos Cabello and Jesus Campos Cabello. On Tarek William Saab There's no clip for this one, but Ortega Diaz also said that Tarek William Saab (the People's Defender and current attorney general) was the target of six different corruption investigations. She also said that she had copies of all the case files. Dire Chinchilla posted:I have a naive question. Does donating to a charities have a chance of doing any good? I found some charities that are collecting money to provide medical supplies and food for Venezuela, but are they even able to operate anymore? If I donated somewhere, would the supplies even reach those who need them, or would they just be most likely stolen or not allowed into the country at all? Thanks for wanting to help! There was a regime crackdown earlier this year on private imports of food and "protest gear" (like tear gas masks, bandages, etc.), but I'm not sure what the situation is now. Caracas Chronicles did a series on "How To Help" which has some links and information to NGOs and other groups in the country that are doing some good work, and the articles include instructions on how to help them out. US Foreign Policy posted:Is there an English version of this, or can someone please provide a good summary of it? I find this concept fascinating and while I guess I've been "Aware" of it, in the sense that dictatorships often turn their military into an economic tool, but I've never really seen it spelled out in Venezuela I'll make this my Saturday project, unless someone is able to find an English version of the article and/or write up a summary. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 17:52
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I don't know man. I had arepas last night and didn't like them, if venegoons lied abot that how can I trust them about other issues?
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Aug 23, 2017 19:41
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Chuck Boone posted:Ha! He ended up wearing this yesterday, minus the sash and medals: Isn't that a liqui-liqui?
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Aug 23, 2017 19:50
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Another tidbit from Ortega Diaz's statements today: There are currently 11 halted public works projects linked to Odebrecht in Venezuela, for which the Venezuelan government paid $300 million. Also, the Brazilian government has offered Ortega Diaz political asylum if she were to request it, which means that she's becoming pretty popular in the region. Colombia offered her the same thing just a few days ago. Polidoro posted:I don't know man. I had arepas last night and didn't like them, if venegoons lied abot that how can I trust them about other issues? beer_war posted:Isn't that a liqui-liqui? Yes!  You're totally right! I've watched the Matrix too many times and been out of the country for too long to have caught this.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:15
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I'm glad to see things are happening. I used to receive news notifications on my phone and over the last two weeks everything just felt way to quiet.Hugoon Chavez posted:We're everywhere. Watching. Eating arepas. Matando tigres. Sorry for the delayed reply. I masochistically decided to see if any "defenders of the people" had posted itt and was completely unsurprised (sidenote: am I the only one that reads VenezuelaAnalysis as patience excercise?) I'm in London, currently. While reading some early pages of the thread I got to when the MUD vote occurred. Here it happened in Holborn, and was pleasantly surprised with the turnout. I still have my little slip of paper they gave you when you left were you pledge to defend democracy Volkerball posted:Not to make this thread about fnox, but can I get a link to this? The same sad story as all of us. You've heard one once and you've heard all of them.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:44
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Chuck Boone posted:We need more details! What was the stuffing? How would you describe the arepa dough (cold/lukewarm/hot? Was it dense and dry, or soft and chewie?) There are too many variables to consider! It was meat and cheese that I could tell, but that's probably a bastardization to appeal to Uruguayans (lack of) palate. I didn't like the dough, it was warm and spongy but i didn't like the texture and taste (didn't taste like much). It seems ok that I didn't because I tend to not like corn derivatives, like polenta and whatever else there is. Still better than that time I had a rice burrito.
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Aug 23, 2017 22:29
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Jesus how much do you even need to steal? Like at some point in your life you really can stop and just live off that money under some retirement fund. When the country is so crippled where will you spend the money?
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Aug 23, 2017 23:59
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caberham posted:Jesus how much do you even need to steal? What's mind blowing to me is that in a lot of kleptocracies, then kleptocrats actually end up investing the money and at least turning it into something, even if it its more for their own benefit than anyone else's (eg Angola, Russia, hell even DPRK). The Venezuelan kleptocracy does God knows what with its money. Probably some of the lower profile ones buy condos in Miami or Panama City or whatever, but it's crazy that not even one of them seems to have set up a business with all their ill gotten gains. Like what have Chavez's daughters done with their billions? Actually now that I think of it I guess Gulnara Karimova (daughter of previous long-time Uzbek dictator) stole similar amounts and didn't do anything except prove Bono is a massive hypocrite, as if more evidence was necessary. E: actually every source I can find for his daugters' wealth relies on dubious sources and is repeated largely only in hard right wing sources like Breitbart and Fox News. I'm sure they're wealthy AF but the $4.2 bn figure seems likely to be made of of thin air. I'd be surprised if they weren't worth tens (or even hundreds) of millions in assets outside Venezuela though. I wonder why Maduros nephews bothered smuggling drugs though. For the fun of it maybe, and for feeling like they're invincible? Saladman fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 00:47
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Million of dollars of assets are useless if they're tied up by the shady banks that would accept them. I'd be unsurprised if most of what is in major banks is under false names and already quietly frozen. Anything invested under the table in criminal enterprises is equally likely to be inaccessible or outright lost as instability increased. They may have bilked billions but a good chunk of that was likely simply lost due to their complete idiocy.
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Aug 24, 2017 01:24
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Saladman posted:I wonder why Maduros nephews bothered smuggling drugs though. For the fun of it maybe, and for feeling like they're invincible? Some kids don't want to follow the set family business of giving misery for money. They want to strike out on their own and try their own hand at it.
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Aug 24, 2017 02:24
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e: nvm
ronya fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 02:27
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Luisa Ortega Diaz is back in Colombia now, and she said that she would make a decision about where to ask for asylum by the end of the week. It's good that she's gotten offers from Colombia and Brazil (and maybe others that we haven't heard about). She'll be a thorn at the PSUV's side for as long as she's out of the country, and that's a good thing. EFE is reporting that she also has plans to go speak at The Hague, as well as the OAS and the UN. The other bit of news tonight is a rumour that CONATEL (the Venezuelan FCC) has asked the country's cable providers to remove two Colombian channels (RCN and Caracol) from their packages. The rumour is that the channels will go off the air at midnight, so we'll have to wait and see to see if that happens. This move is likely in retaliation for Colombia offering Ortega Diaz asylum earlier this week (note to self: file this away for the next time someone argues "most of the media in Venezuela is anti-government!"),. Furia posted:Sorry for the delayed reply. I masochistically decided to see if any "defenders of the people" had posted itt and was completely unsurprised (sidenote: am I the only one that reads VenezuelaAnalysis as patience excercise?) We occasionally get posters taking the thread for a ride with pro-regime stuff, but my sense is that we're seeing fewer of them probably because it's getting harder and harder to argue in defense of the regime. The Venezuela thread would have looked completely different ten, maybe even five years ago. Polidoro posted:It was meat and cheese that I could tell, but that's probably a bastardization to appeal to Uruguayans (lack of) palate. I didn't like the dough, it was warm and spongy but i didn't like the texture and taste (didn't taste like much). It seems ok that I didn't because I tend to not like corn derivatives, like polenta and whatever else there is. Speaking of eating lots of arepas: a new Venezuelan restaurant opened up here in Toronto (it's called MAIZ). For some reason they've opened it as a fusion Venezuelan/Mexican place, but the owners are Venezuelan and most of the menu is arepas/other Venezuelan things. I have a feeling I'll walk by there one day and see that they've switched entirely to a Venezuelan menu... Saladman posted:I wonder why Maduros nephews bothered smuggling drugs though. For the fun of it maybe, and for feeling like they're invincible?
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Aug 24, 2017 04:04
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To me it seems completely feasible that the two biggest idiots in the Flores family thought that, since the family won't trust them with positions of power, they would instead rely on their last name and diplomatic passport to come up with some quick cash. Seeing just how easily the DEA caught them it all seems to add up.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:06
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fnox posted:To me it seems completely feasible that the two biggest idiots in the Flores family thought that, since the family won't trust them with positions of power, they would instead rely on their last name and diplomatic passport to come up with some quick cash. Seeing just how easily the DEA caught them it all seems to add up. They must be really stupid for that to be true. I've heard rumors for years about the Flores family giving out positions of power like candy to anyone in their family. Imagine being so inept that even a family that's famous for its nepotism won't take the chance of giving you a real job where you can embezzle money with the rest of them.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:32
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