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Tias posted:
Right, because theology is one line alone, not an entire corpus of sacred books and then interpretations thereof. There are hundreds of other statements in scripture that would foreclose the reading you propose, but by all means, be myopic if that's what you need to make your point.
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Aug 22, 2017 12:36
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We only disagree because we take different stances on what theology is. Most of my knowledge of divine comes from personal gnosis, I don't trust a theologician to tell me what religion is. If you think it's good to wipe out the most sacred places of other peoples religion because it's somehow a civilizing force, and your only argument is that a bunch of members of your own religion has interpreted that it's correct because the victims beliefs are a bunch of nonsense, then you're either insane or very dense.
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Aug 22, 2017 12:56
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happyphage posted:It's a bit of a dumb request but could I ask you all for prayers for finding a church? I've actively looking for a church for over a year now and beginning to be pretty bummed out on it also i am late to the polytheism chat, but pidan, far from being less rational, you...you are aware that indian, chinese, and japanese people are all polytheist, right? and you're into their great thought? five thousand years of it? wtf
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Aug 22, 2017 13:08
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HEY GAIL posted:consider your chiller orthodox churches, but no communion until you convert Well it doesn't really count because they are all secret monotheists (a thing I have actually heard people say).
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Aug 22, 2017 14:00
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Josef bugman posted:Well it doesn't really count because they are all secret monotheists (a thing I have actually heard people say).
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Aug 22, 2017 14:02
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"Monotheism is more rational than the polytheism of European pagans" does not mean "all people who believe in anything other than monotheism are less rational than all people who do, in all aspects of life". But I think we'll all be happier if I leave this thread alone for a while
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Aug 22, 2017 14:18
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Actually christians are secret polytheists. This trinity stuff isn't fooling anyone.
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Aug 22, 2017 14:22
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pidan posted:"Monotheism is more rational than the polytheism of European pagans" does not mean "all people who believe in anything other than monotheism are less rational than all people who do, in all aspects of life". a, you didn't specify, and b that's still not a true statement
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Aug 22, 2017 14:25
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pidan posted:"Monotheism is more rational than the polytheism of European pagans" does not mean "all people who believe in anything other than monotheism are less rational than all people who do, in all aspects of life". Rather than "more rational" I would say it is neater and more elegant in getting at eternal truths than many of the pagan approaches. Sort of like how heliocentrism was so much easier to deal with than the epicycles upon epicycles of the Ptolemaic system. Perhaps it's still a bad analogy for other reasons, but I kind of get what you mean.
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Aug 22, 2017 14:32
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It's never a good sign when I find upwards of sixty posts in this thread overnight. Can we please stop the pagan/Christian slapfighting? This thread and its predecessor used to be a remarkably chill place for non-Christians to come in and talk a little bit.
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Aug 22, 2017 14:44
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HEY GAIL posted:let me guess, if monotheists are more rational, all rational polytheists must be secret monotheists. the logic is airtight, in that nothing from outside can get in Basically. Though at least one did claim that, since some Hindu thought has an idea where everything is simply a pattern emanation from a single "outside the universe" style God, that means all Hinduism is based on that idea.
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Aug 22, 2017 16:10
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Josef bugman posted:Basically. Though at least one did claim that, since some Hindu thought has an idea where everything is simply a pattern emanation from a single "outside the universe" style God, that means all Hinduism is based on that idea.
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Aug 22, 2017 16:23
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I need two kinds of spiritual help. 1) Can anyone recommend an English language text outlining the differences between Catholic and Orthodox theology, especially what would be called 'theology of the body'. I'm coming at this as a Catholic who just can't make any drat sense of.the church's teaching on sexuality. 2) Can anyone please pray for my wife to find new work? Her current nursing job has her working overtime and its breaking her down mentally and physically. Praying especially for the intercession of St. Elizabeth of Hungary.
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Aug 22, 2017 17:21
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Josef bugman posted:Basically. Though at least one did claim that, since some Hindu thought has an idea where everything is simply a pattern emanation from a single "outside the universe" style God, that means all Hinduism is based on that idea. That's literally how Hinduism was taught when I went to high school. It wasn't until college when I got to find out that Hinduism is probably the most complicated religion in the world. The Belgian posted:Actually christians are secret polytheists. This trinity stuff isn't fooling anyone. normal brain: monotheists are secretly polytheists expanding brain: polytheists are secretly monotheists Celsus brain: monotheists are actually atheists
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Aug 22, 2017 17:45
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All atheists are secretly animists, we just describe it in the driest, most boring terms possible so people won't suspect.
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Aug 22, 2017 17:50
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HEY GAIL posted:i used to read indian philosophy: for any idea x you can find at least one hindu who believes in x, and has written 500 pages on it Actually on this subject: does anyone know how much cross-pollination there was between Muslim and Indian philosophy during the medieval period?
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Aug 22, 2017 18:13
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The Belgian posted:Actually christians are secret polytheists. This trinity stuff isn't fooling anyone. this beseeching saints isnt either !! Caufman posted:That does not strike me as a dumb request. I will pray for you if you pray I get a skateboard for Christmas. wish granted
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Aug 22, 2017 20:42
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The Phlegmatist posted:Celsus brain: monotheists are actually atheists Ah I see that you've played Glorantha before! The Phlegmatist posted:That's literally how Hinduism was taught when I went to high school. It wasn't until college when I got to find out that Hinduism is probably the most complicated religion in the world. Yeah, I mean even Hinduism is so vast as to cover a multitude of what would be religions all on their own anywhere else in the world.
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Aug 22, 2017 22:25
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:wish granted Appreciate it, fam. I have it from the highest authority that you will receive the complete Nickleback discography on laser disc. Pershing posted:I need two kinds of spiritual help. Peace and good health to you and your wife. Do tell her that people called goons have got her back, spiritually. I can't help too much with your first request, though. A family friend and her husband teach natural family planning, and they did not warmly receive my advice that they advertise their lessons by emphasizing "doin' it raw." (my exact words and pronunciation)
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Aug 22, 2017 22:34
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Caufman posted:Appreciate it, fam. I have it from the highest authority that you will receive the complete Nickleback discography on laser disc. god is good
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Aug 22, 2017 22:39
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Tias posted:
Well, if you want to take it to that level, I'll put it this way. For the early medieval Norse, the burning of their holy sites must have undoubtedly been a terrible thing, and I'm not particularly in favor of causing anyone undue pain. All the same though, when they left the world, they did so without any legitimate inheritors, and their legacy is all but lost. I don't think the crocodile tears shed over them by my contemporaries are anything more than a species of bad playacting.
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Aug 23, 2017 00:45
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Well, if you want to take it to that level, I'll put it this way. For the early medieval Norse, the burning of their holy sites must have undoubtedly been a terrible thing, and I'm not particularly in favor of causing anyone undue pain. All the same though, when they left the world, they did so without any legitimate inheritors, and their legacy is all but lost. I don't think the crocodile tears shed over them by my contemporaries are anything more than a species of bad playacting. I think this is possibly a more polite way of putting what I said earlier. I certainly wouldn't expect a similar historical hemming and hawing had the tables been turned and say, germanic paganism been triumphant and burned Rome. Now just wait until everyone dogpiles on me and declares me a genocidal imperialist!
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Aug 23, 2017 01:46
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empire is bad regardless of when it was or who was conquered a controversial statement apparently
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Aug 23, 2017 02:00
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Senju Kannon posted:empire is bad regardless of when it was or who was conquered Empires were a thing, and, for bad or good, there was elements that occured during them that were, on the whole, good things. Roman roads, aqueducts, the spread of latin? Undeniably good things. Codes of laws, the first school systems, centralized government? Pretty good. Bad stuff? Sure. Lots of it. We can't unwrite history but we can examine the tangible legacies they left us. I won't apologize for things that happened millenia before me of which I have no claim or relation. The same way the post-hellenistic collapse across asia minor and the middle east led to a period of fascinating yet ineffectual mystery cults and syncretisms -nobody remembers Isis worship, or Ser-Apis, or the Eleusinian Mysteries but the vacuum they tried to (ineffectually) fill proved to be fertile soil for Christianity. So I'd say their end was good for Christians and, because I am Christian, I would say that it is therefore good they are gone. For me to suggest otherwise would be hypocritical.
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Aug 23, 2017 02:10
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you know jesus was crucified by that empire for the sin of speaking out against it right like christianity was very anti-empire before constantine for post-colonial readings of the gospels read this book https://books.google.com/books/abou...epage&q&f=false and also literally anything written by musa dube, one of if not the greatest african post-colonial biblical scholars. seriously she is amazing and anything you read by her makes you go "oh maybe we shouldn't read the bible like that huh"
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Aug 23, 2017 02:14
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pidan i'm doin the thing where i tell people they're wrong in a drive by post way but i give them reading lists so they can get good also kwok pui lan is great, her post-colonial feminist theology of religions changed a lot of paradigms for me when i first read her works
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Aug 23, 2017 02:16
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Senju Kannon posted:you know jesus was crucified by that empire for the sin of speaking out against it right Christ was crucified at the behest of the jewish temple authorities and pharisees -Pilate is presented rather sympathetically. I don't know where you turn "Hey, X that empire did is cool and good" into "Empire is cool and good". Unless you want to suggest that because the actions were done by an empire they cannot be good and so have been secretly bad all along.
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Aug 23, 2017 02:24
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don't take up that line of thought with someone from india or the rez or aboriginal australians or anybody whose lives and country were wrecked by empire because sometimes aqueducts don't quite justify the poo poo that empires do also lol that's a pretty antisemitic reading of pilate to be spouting in a post-holocaust world. like seriously read that book one of her major hermeneutical concerns, if not THE hermeneutic that drives her work, is that any reading of scripture that's used to uphold antisemitism cannot be allowed to continue without being interrogated thoroughly. that's pretty much because she's a german biblical scholar writing in a post-auschwitz world and takes that incredibly seriously, while a lot of american theologians tend to not care so much about centering their biblical hermeneutics on anti-antisemitism
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Aug 23, 2017 02:29
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Acknowledging the historical fact that the gospel writers were at odds with the Jewish authorities of their time and that it shows in what they wrote is anti-semitism now?
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Aug 23, 2017 02:38
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Senju Kannon posted:pidan i'm doin the thing where i tell people they're wrong in a drive by post way but i give them reading lists so they can get good With respect and believing in your good faith intentions, I'm not sure this is an effective method. Even with your recommended reading list, simply not everyone will read what you've read. And for those who do, there is not a guarantee they will see things your way. People may not care how much you know until they know how much you care. And not about you being in the right, but about them being in the right. While it's still peace time, this is the opportune moment to make bridges and avert crises, made more precious because peace time hangs in the air with no safety net. Caufman fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 02:43
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I was gonna say he opposed the bourgeoisie but then figured I'd get accused of antisemitism!
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Aug 23, 2017 02:44
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Caufman posted:With respect and believing in your good faith intentions, I'm not sure this is an effective method. Even with your recommended reading list, simply not everyone will read what you've read. And for those who do, there is not a guarantee they will see things your way. I don't even have the time to read the books I like, much less a book suggestion thrown at me in disagreement. Caufman, once again, the voice of kindness and calm against raised ire and tension. I should take his advice.
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Aug 23, 2017 02:48
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Senju Kannon posted:don't take up that line of thought with someone from india or the rez or aboriginal australians or anybody whose lives and country were wrecked by empire because sometimes aqueducts don't quite justify the poo poo that empires do i don't recognize your name but this post leads me towards thinking that whatever reason i had to put you on ignore was justified
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Aug 23, 2017 03:01
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Is it hot in here? It feels hot in here.
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Aug 23, 2017 03:06
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i don't recognize your name but this post leads me towards thinking that whatever reason i had to put you on ignore was justified mo tzu
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Aug 23, 2017 03:06
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i don't recognize your name but this post leads me towards thinking that whatever reason i had to put you on ignore was justified you mean the time you brought up my wanting to move out of the country post trump in an aggressive "yeah how's that going" and i replied by saying i was working hard at studying japanese in hopes that i'd be able to get a scholarship to study abroad in japan for a couple years? and then you just kinda stopped posting for a while? ran out of money to study and i'm not at a point where i can get the scholarship i'd need to study abroad so i'm stuck trying to get work to pay for language study. i'm hoping i can still go eventually but it's now up in the air if i'd be able to so i guess you won?
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Aug 23, 2017 03:18
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Smoking Crow posted:mo tzu huh. anyway  bounce house
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Aug 23, 2017 03:19
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Acknowledging the historical fact that the gospel writers were at odds with the Jewish authorities of their time and that it shows in what they wrote is anti-semitism now? the gospel of john is pretty antisemitic my man Caufman posted:With respect and believing in your good faith intentions, I'm not sure this is an effective method. Even with your recommended reading list, simply not everyone will read what you've read. And for those who do, there is not a guarantee they will see things your way. my main thing is that i think the number one obligation of every human being is to work against systems of oppression wherever they're found, whether it's in scriptures or in how we understand history. i think oppression is a weed that finds roots in every aspect of how we live our lives and it's incredibly important to examine those roots, to see where they are, and to try to kill them before they grow into more dangerous forms of oppression. when it comes to biblical and theological discussions my first thought is "how does this support oppression, and how can it support liberation instead?" and this is the result of a number of personal and intellectual stuff that's happened to me in my life so while i don't necessarily approach things in a way that's like.. rhetorically good that's because when i DO try to say things like "hey painting pilate as the good guy in the situation led to a lot of bad things in christendom so MAYBE don't say that" i get told "but the biblical authors had a lot of negative interactions with jewish authorities" like that's not my point! my point is that upholding the roman empire as the "good guys" led to a lot of antisemitic theology, which led to antisemitic political theory, which led to historical persecution of jews! after the holocaust i think it's incredibly important to interrogate even the faintest hint of antisemitism because we should be able to say "never again will christianity be used to justify genocide!" when it comes to "polytheists are less rational" the reason i got so upset is because the idea that someone, because of their religion, is at an inferior place to someone with a "superior" religion has been used to justify everything from forced conversions to smashing babies after baptism so that their souls would go to heaven. my main point is that you should look at these things, which to you might seem innocuous, and ask yourself "where does this lead?" and thinking that someone from a different ethnic, sociological, religious, or whatever else circumstance from you is inferior to your own upbringing in any way leads to bad things! if you want to say "i think the history of human sacrifice in pre-christian europe is a bad thing" then fine! say that! i would ask who your sources are and to keep in mind that christian monks and roman generals have a pretty vested interest in painting their enemies as the bad guys, but that is categorically a different statement than "someone who beleives in more than one god is less rational." and applying aesthetics to such a thing, as numerical anxiety did, isn't that much better. i'm not saying "you're all nazis" and if you're hearing that, i would consider that to be a failure of me to communicate anything other than annoyance and anger at some of your statements. but the fact of the matter is we all live in empire. all of our understanding of history, how we view the winners, how we see the losers, are shaped by the fact that we are part of the empire. and whether it's rome and israel, america and the "developing world," britain and its colonies, the material reality and the cognitive reality of empire is unchanging. if the evils of empire are acknowledged, it's always with the 'but" of some technological progress, some education, some sort of social good which somehow is supposed to make us feel better about the millions dead so that england could have tea. and with christianity, you have to understand that this religion has been used to justify the political and social disenfranchisement of people for centuries. christians are not particularly liked in sri lanka, for example, because of the colonial history (and because of the civil wars and ethnic genocides, but that's not exactly a rare issue in a former british colony is it). rather than acting as though the evils of empire were an unfortunate byproduct of empire, and that empire brings with it some good, why not acknowledge that the evils of empire are the main product of empire and the good that it brings with it and unintended byproduct? most western empires look to rome as a source of inspiration. i live in dc. i see it everywhere, in the buildings, in the monuments, in the temple to george washington that the freemasons built. the myth of rome as bringing civilization to the masses is tied into the christian image of itself as a civilizing force, which brings rationality and compassion wherever it goes. now there are goods that christianity brought, especially before it became a tool of empire! for one thing, bringing an end to pederasty in the mediteranean is a good thing! kinda sucks that adult men having consensual sex was lumped into it, but still a good thing! women had more rights in the early church, there were people looking to relief from roman persecution of their people, and there was a lot of good going on. but once christianity ceased to criticize empire, and instead began to justify empire, it began to condone a lot of evil things. and we can see the worst examples of that in africa, latin america, and asia. we can see it in auschwitz too. so from my point of view, if christianity wishes to be taken as legitimate and as a religion of peace, it's necessary to interrogate WHY christianity justified such things, and to posit positive changes to prevent such justifications in the future. and saying "we brought aqueducts to the jews" doesn't do that. and lest you say "tu quoque" i also think this of jodo shinshu! jodo shinshu support for the russo japanese war and the second world war, as well as its justifications for war crimes in china and other parts of asia were disgusting, and the organizations need to critically examine the justifications and move away from them. it's why one of my favorite jodo shinshu scholars is takagi kenmyo, a japanese pacifist whose essay "my socialism" is a prophetic example of how jodo shinshu temples and scholars SHOULD have interrogated japanese empire, rather than supporting it in defense of its own perpetuated existence. kenmyo's suicide after his arrest in the high treason incident is akin to ignacio ellacuria's own martyrdom, and it's something i actually would love to write about if i was better at researching in japanese. kind of hard when you need a kanji dictionary for every sentence you know? anyway that's where i'm coming from. it's why i like parables of jesus by that german woman whose name i can never remember. she takes these issues incredibly seriously, and in fact her example is why i take antisemitism far more seriously. well, her and charlottesville and everything that's happened in the past few years in america and europe that made me go "oh yeah jews totally need a place like israel where they can go when poo poo gets bad in their home countries. doesn't justify israeli oppression of the palestinian people but the solution to that is more complicated than i wanted it to be"
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Aug 23, 2017 03:43
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Senju Kannon posted:the gospel of john is pretty antisemitic my man Forgive me, I still don't understand the logic here. When Ceciltron says that the Gospels tend to portray the Romans more favorably than it does the Jewish authorities, this is evidence that Ceciltron, personally, is an antisemite. But when you state more or less the same thing in a more forceful mode, this does not evidence antisemitism on your part?
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Aug 23, 2017 04:17
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Forgive me, I still don't understand the logic here. When Ceciltron says that the Gospels tend to portray the Romans more favorably than it does the Jewish authorities, this is evidence that Ceciltron, personally, is an antisemite. But when you state more or less the same thing in a more forceful mode, this does not evidence antisemitism on your part? i read that as him interpreting the gospel rather than stating a thing the gospels were written to say, which i don't think is an unfair reading of that post since it was just one sentence separated from other things? the difference being calling it antisemitic is a judgement against john, while saying the gospels say the jewish authorities killed christ and pilate was cool seems less so. although i will say that this interpretation is itself challenged by that book i mentioned whatever i should just take a posting hiatus until i get a job cause i'm all hosed up inside anyway lmao
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Aug 23, 2017 04:23
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