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I do wonder what the hobby would look like nowadays if Pathfinder didn't happen, and there wasn't a "game for people who don't want to stop playing 3.x" thing at all.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:36
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Smaller, probably
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Aug 22, 2017 19:37
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rpg books never really go out of date so those people would just keep playing 3.X (and possibly 5e depending on how that went down), they'd just have a less modern toy to entice their friends to play with them.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:38
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Cease to Hope posted:jesus christ it has plain old 3x3 d&d alignment
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Aug 22, 2017 19:42
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Countblanc posted:rpg books never really go out of date so those people would just keep playing 3.X (and possibly 5e depending on how that went down), they'd just have a less modern toy to entice their friends to play with them. Glad that as someone who is primarly a videogamer instead of a tabletop rube I'd never be tricked into buying the same game several times with only minute changes.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:48
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I mean, TRPGs could have grown, but 5e stunk and the hobby allows assholes to be its public face. Player base growth at this point can only happen by modernizing TRPGs to be competitive with video games and accepting non-CIS, non-het, and non-white as customers and respecting and appealing to them. But neither is happening.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:50
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Plutonis posted:Glad that as someone who is primarly a videogamer instead of a tabletop rube I'd never be tricked into buying the same game several times with only minute changes. Humour like this keeps me coming back for more.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:50
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Cease to Hope posted:jesus christ it has plain old 3x3 d&d alignment Yeah, it's just Pathfinder fastforwarded a couple thousand years in space, straight up. It's intentionally exactly the same in a lot of ways.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:50
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Covok posted:I mean, TRPGs could have grown, but 5e stunk and the hobby allows assholes to be its public face. Player base growth at this point can only happen by modernizing TRPGs to be competitive with video games and accepting non-CIS, non-het, and non-white as customers and respecting and appealing to them. It's funny you say this because the very first NPC in Starfinder material is a non-binary android, and Blood in the Chocolate is full of non-white, queer characters. Don't draw your lines so thickly.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:51
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Arivia posted:It's funny you say this because the very first NPC in Starfinder material is a non-binary android Is it ternary? I mean it is the future.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:57
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Arivia posted:Yeah, it's just Pathfinder fastforwarded a couple thousand years in space, straight up. It's
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Aug 22, 2017 19:58
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Somehow I don't think that including nonwhite queer pygmy rapist npcs is going to be successful at "respecting" and "appealing" to nonwhite queer customers.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:02
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Cease to Hope posted:jesus christ it has plain old 3x3 d&d alignment And that example of play is  So what I'm getting is yes, it really is just PF in space, and that any innovation is only relative to PF itself and the numerous d20 games that preceded it. Hard pass.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:03
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The only good thing about starfinder's existence is we'll get plenty of good sci-fi mats and pawns to use.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:08
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There are like, two companies that use assholes as their public faces. They aren't a majority or anything; they're just the only ones that most non-gamers have ever heard of.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:08
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Jimbozig posted:Somehow I don't think that including nonwhite queer pygmy rapist npcs is going to be successful at "respecting" and "appealing" to nonwhite queer customers. No, I mean the actual main characters. Here's Blood in the Chocolate, with a woman of colour leading the way (and she recurs through the internal art): http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/199571/Blood-in-the-Chocolate Here's another LotFP cover with only women of colour on it as the active characters: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/175129/World-of-the-Lost
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Aug 22, 2017 20:10
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potatocubed posted:I once thought I'd run a Champions game, then Mutants and Masterminds was released and I never looked back. Problem is the buddy is in his late 40's and has nostalgia for lovely 1980's game design. After Fury Road came out I expressed interest in running a game of that type and he gave me the hard sell on using RIFTS.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:16
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98% of the target market for Starfinder is Pathfinder players who want to play a space game that doesn't require them to learn a whole new system, or PF groups/GMs that want to add robots and lightsabers and other scifi poo poo to their ongoing PF game. Of course it was going to be 100% compatible and derivative.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:17
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S.J. posted:The only good thing about starfinder's existence is we'll get plenty of good sci-fi mats and pawns to use. Truth. I like to view Paizo as this great gaming accessory company, and ignore all rules and MMOs they are involved with.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:18
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Jimbozig posted:Somehow I don't think that including nonwhite queer pygmy rapist npcs is going to be successful at "respecting" and "appealing" to nonwhite queer customers. I was gonna add onto this true statement that the Willy Wonka of the adventure, Whatsherface von Inflationfetish, was also a good example of a "queer-coded villain" - given traits associated with queer folk but without ever explicitly stating it, like a good third of classic Disney villains. However when I was double-checking hyphz's review of it for a few details, it's actually pretty explicit that she's queer within the text of the story. Except that, besides having a keepsake from the Countess of Somerset, all the details involve horrifying sexual torture with a preference for women (and possibly underage children?) which makes it even worse than plain queer-coding. I guess leave it to the shitheads at the OSR to champion a disease-ridden predatory serial rapist who gets off on extreme sexual violence as being a shining beacon of queer representation 
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Aug 22, 2017 20:20
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Arivia posted:
I've never cared for LotFP at all even a little bit, but I'm surprisingly interested in buying this just to find out what the hell is going on in that cover. Okay, the girl in chainmail fighting a crab monster I get, that's pretty standard fantasy cover material, sure. But then I see the woman behind her dressed like a Swiss guard blowing the head of a dinosaur off with, like, a Starship Troopers rifle and my mind goes blank.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:24
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a lot of these classes have class features that boil down to "you own a gadget that does a thing" and there's no thought given to what happens when you kill someone and take their thing or give your thing to a party member starfinder isn't making a great impression
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Aug 22, 2017 20:27
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Well I fully believe myself that Queer POCs have the possibility to become depraved insane murders much like cis white men and that great women like Elizabeth Bathory, Eileen Wuornos and Lizzie Borden broke the mass murderer glass ceiling.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:28
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Covok posted:I mean, TRPGs could have grown, but 5e stunk and the hobby allows assholes to be its public face. Player base growth at this point can only happen by modernizing TRPGs to be competitive with video games and accepting non-CIS, non-het, and non-white as customers and respecting and appealing to them. you're not wrong that it's important for the industry to accept those markets, but I don't really think video games are the group to look at for inspiration there; very few development houses care about those things and most of the time when they put alternative identities into games it's in this really boring (if not insulting) way that implies everyone's issues and lives are the same milquetoast liberal struggles, it's just who you want to have sex with that's different, which spits in the face of queer people and basically everything social sciences have taught us. video games are not a progressive industry.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:29
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Arivia posted:No, I mean the actual main characters. Someone mentioned in the general "oh god why" discussion of Death By Chocolate (better name for that, honestly) that his next work is entitled "Vaginas are Magic".
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Aug 22, 2017 20:31
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the ttrpg industry needs to modernize in other ways too, specifically how it integrates technology and in game design. loving board games even use smart devices regularly these days or come with soundtracks and poo poo, surely rpgs can do that.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:31
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Hostile V posted:Yeah, uh. The author behind that generally writes the core NPCs of the module to be women, like the example characters and the side characters are generally women (Hell House Beckons has one man who is a little boy). Then bad, bad things happen to them because the author is one of those guys who is like "I'm a feminist and I love women and am embracing these horror tropes and violence against women tropes because I recognize they're problematic but I'm taking them back for women". Like "I'm having bad things happen to both genders equally except there are more women than men because I'm going for grindhouse horror/giallo horror thing here". Joss Whedon, is that you?!
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Aug 22, 2017 20:33
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Countblanc posted:the ttrpg industry needs to modernize in other ways too, specifically how it integrates technology and in game design. loving board games even use smart devices regularly these days or come with soundtracks and poo poo, surely rpgs can do that. We can't afford that. We mostly can't even afford editing!
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Aug 22, 2017 20:38
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Countblanc posted:the ttrpg industry needs to modernize in other ways too, specifically how it integrates technology and in game design. loving board games even use smart devices regularly these days or come with soundtracks and poo poo, surely rpgs can do that. As somebody who owns a pile of Midnight Syndicate CDs,
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Aug 22, 2017 20:38
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Countblanc posted:you're not wrong that it's important for the industry to accept those markets, but I don't really think video games are the group to look at for inspiration there; very few development houses care about those things and most of the time when they put alternative identities into games it's in this really boring (if not insulting) way that implies everyone's issues and lives are the same milquetoast liberal struggles, it's just who you want to have sex with that's different, which spits in the face of queer people and basically everything social sciences have taught us. video games are not a progressive industry. You misunderstand, those were two separate points. One was saying the game design has to modernize. The other point was that we needed more respectful representation of minority groups and games to grow the market. Modernizing the game design is more based around increasing convenience so that video games don't have that immediate Edge or not as much of an edge.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:40
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Rand Brittain posted:We can't afford that. you're probably right
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Aug 22, 2017 20:42
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Countblanc posted:you're probably right I mean, maybe one day, but first people have to accept that RPGs need to cost significantly more than they currently do.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:43
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Covok posted:You misunderstand, those were two separate points. One was saying the game design has to modernize. The other point was that we needed more respectful representation of minority groups and games to grow the market. Modernizing the game design is more based around increasing convenience so that video games don't have that immediate Edge or not as much of an edge. ah alright. i think convenience is definitely important, it sucks that the biggest undertaking in that regard, 4e's digital tabletop, ended in such a disaster. software like Roll20 does a lot to help, and Discord has been used by a lot of groups for various purposes (skype replacement, chatlog, etc.) as well. i'm not completely sure what the next step is, especially considering budgets as rand brittain mentioned.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:45
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theoretically rpgs offer the best money spent:entertainment received of anything
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Aug 22, 2017 20:47
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Hostile V posted:Yeah, uh. The author behind that generally writes the core NPCs of the module to be women, like the example characters and the side characters are generally women (Hell House Beckons has one man who is a little boy). Then bad, bad things happen to them because the author is one of those guys who is like "I'm a feminist and I love women and am embracing these horror tropes and violence against women tropes because I recognize they're problematic but I'm taking them back for women". Like "I'm having bad things happen to both genders equally except there are more women than men because I'm going for grindhouse horror/giallo horror thing here". And there's nothing wrong with working with horror techniques in what's a horror adventure. It makes sense. Everyone in here seems to be caught up in outrage over the content of BitC while not remembering that it's explicitly a horror adventure. Yes, bad things happen and there are bad people. That's part of the genre. If you don't like it, that's fine, but the mere existence of it doesn't mean it's bad. I haven't seen Vaginas are Magic myself, but it seems to be by Raggi, and not by Kiel Chenier.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:47
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Hostile V posted:Someone mentioned in the general "oh god why" discussion of Death By Chocolate (better name for that, honestly) that his next work is entitled "Vaginas are Magic". That was their Free RPG Day thing either this year or last year, if I remember correctly.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:49
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To each their own, so if a group I was in wanted to run Blood in the Chocolate, I would leave that group.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:52
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Evil Mastermind posted:That was their Free RPG Day thing either this year or last year, if I remember correctly. It was this year, and it was loving stupid.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:53
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Serf posted:theoretically rpgs offer the best money spent:entertainment received of anything i actually had that thought earlier today yeah, i've put more hours into a single 4e campaign than i have probably any video game not named TF2, and far more than any other single piece of entertainment. maybe my trumpet is close in terms of money:entertainment but i also barely get to play it anymore since apartments don't really like you practicing brass instruments
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Aug 22, 2017 20:53
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Evil Mastermind posted:That was their Free RPG Day thing either this year or last year, if I remember correctly.
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Aug 22, 2017 20:54
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