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Senju Kannon, I am ashamed and regretful that your valid message is received indifferently or worse. Beyond mere acceptance, I deeply admire your moral stance against oppression, which has been a perpetual rot on us since at least our recorded history. To all my friends who want to read this: I am convinced that if we could see into each others' hearts, we would know the largeness of our love. But now, we can only see each others' posts. For the message of the heart to rise to the top, we must intend for it to be up there. And what lofty goals do you want to accomplish that you think can be pulled off without love, which exists without any of us having to invent it? Even in person, this fleshy communication we do is like seeing through a glass, darkly. It's even worse over these dead, sexual-preference-undisclosed forums. Every layer the message has to pass through, our demons add baffles to the natural losses in translation. It's not ideal, but I suggest that it's worth fighting for. Everyone who paid $10 and still posts in this thread must care enough to do so. Like a war in Afghanistan, I'm going to be here a while, probably longer than I intended. It's time I either make clear my priorities or cut bait and surrender.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:47
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Caufman posted:Senju Kannon, I am ashamed and regretful that your valid message is received indifferently or worse. Beyond mere acceptance, I deeply admire your moral stance against oppression, which has been a perpetual rot on us since at least our recorded history. ow my head woke Trump is that you??
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Aug 23, 2017 04:57
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I was going for Spiritual James Mattis =/
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Aug 23, 2017 06:16
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Ceciltron posted:Christ was crucified at the behest of the jewish temple authorities and pharisees -Pilate is presented rather sympathetically. I don't know where you turn "Hey, X that empire did is cool and good" into "Empire is cool and good". Unless you want to suggest that because the actions were done by an empire they cannot be good and so have been secretly bad all along. I've always kinda liked that the worst crime in history was committed at the behest of some bored imperial bureaucrat who just couldn't be arsed to do the right thing. Like the Pharisees at least had some ideological motivations and arguably they believed they were right, Pilate literally looks Truth in the face and tells him to gently caress off, I've got a resume to pad
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Aug 23, 2017 06:38
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Senju, I just wanted to thank you for this post - I don't necessarily agree with all (or maybe even most, I'd need to think more about it) of it, but I feel that I understand where you're coming from much better now.
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Aug 23, 2017 07:07
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https://twitter.com/erlosungen/status/899418928358850560
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Aug 23, 2017 07:13
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StashAugustine posted:I've always kinda liked that the worst crime in history was committed at the behest of some bored imperial bureaucrat who just couldn't be arsed to do the right thing. Like the Pharisees at least had some ideological motivations and arguably they believed they were right, Pilate literally looks Truth in the face and tells him to gently caress off, I've got a resume to pad I am sorry to ask this, especially as the rest of the thread has been being very in depth and cool/good, but wasn't the point of Jesus that he died and redeemed everyone? If He had simply lived a very long life wouldn't it have robbed Christianity of some of its meaning?
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Aug 23, 2017 08:12
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Well, if we figure that God needed himself in the shape of Christ to die and save us all, and for this to matter, he probably wouldn't have done it in a showy way to prove some point about authority. Instead, he'd just let the imperfect and evil world take the path of least resistance, in this case Pilatus who probably hadn't had coffee that morning and had an angry mob shouting poo poo at him.Numerical Anxiety posted:Well, if you want to take it to that level, I'll put it this way. For the early medieval Norse, the burning of their holy sites must have undoubtedly been a terrible thing, and I'm not particularly in favor of causing anyone undue pain. All the same though, when they left the world, they did so without any legitimate inheritors, and their legacy is all but lost. I don't think the crocodile tears shed over them by my contemporaries are anything more than a species of bad playacting. I'm not even sure what level of discourse we've reached, but I'm pretty sure it's gone off the rails. I was just saying that destroying a sacred oak or holy groves is actually bad, because it constitutes an act of religious hatred and persecution. The other poster seemed to think for some reason that things became better after monotheism came to northern Europe, and there's no clear argument why this justifies religious cleansing or even if it is true. We can let it lie here, I think. Tias fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 08:40
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Josef bugman posted:I am sorry to ask this, especially as the rest of the thread has been being very in depth and cool/good, but wasn't the point of Jesus that he died and redeemed everyone? If He had simply lived a very long life wouldn't it have robbed Christianity of some of its meaning? It would certainly change the meaning of the Jesus story for me. A great teacher is a great teacher no matter how long they have to teach. But for my own understanding of my salvation, it is important that Jesus laid down his life for his followers. He did this in his living ministry, when he put his fold ahead of himself. He also did this in accepting his death sentence. And this is not found in the canonical gospel, but one reason I believe Jesus accepted his arrest and execution is that if he went into hiding, he would endanger anyone who was remotely close to him for as long as he lived. By allowing himself to be arrested, like a good leader, he took the heat off his followers. Now it would be up to them if they wanted to pass along Jesus's message at their own peril.
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Aug 23, 2017 09:29
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I don't want to leave this thread with a wrong opinion of me, so I'd like to clarify that I do not hold any of the following opinions: - destroying non-Christian religious places is good - any less rational system of any sort is necessarily inferior to the more rational one (in retrospect I probably should have said "structured" or "inviting of scholarly debate" or something instead of "rational", because while it is exactly what I mean, the word is loaded) - any person who does not hold to the more rational system in every aspect of their life is therefore incapable of rational thought - any person who is "less rational" is therefore inferior to a more rational one - some groups of people are less rational as people - irrational or disagreeable cultural practices should be destroyed by benevolent imperialists - my thoughts on Europe's pagan past apply to all other non-monotheistic religions past and present - Britannia rule the waves With some of these I can see how you got there from what I wrote, others are a bit of a stretch.
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Aug 23, 2017 11:37
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pidan posted:- any less rational system of any sort is necessarily inferior to the more rational one (in retrospect I probably should have said "structured" or "inviting of scholarly debate" or something instead of "rational", because while it is exactly what I mean, the word is loaded) this is still demonstrably false, though
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Aug 23, 2017 11:45
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Rationality as an ideal is bad for both societies and religions, though. Non-rationality is, strictly speaking, a basis of religious compassion. E: not saying you don't like compassion, natch, it's just that rationality as a virtue is what has given us our current superficial STEM-jerk society with all it entails of egotism, materialism, misogyny, pollution and atheism.
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Aug 23, 2017 11:51
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Senju Kannon posted:this is still demonstrably false, though Well, I invite you do demonstrate it's falseness by linking me to a to an argument specifically for European (I was thinking of Germanic specifically, but I'll accept others) style polytheism that is based on reason and principles rather than personal experience, authority, poetry and tradition. I personally find the poetic and experiential aspects of heathenry extremely appealing, but I find it lacking in the area of a moral system and can not find solid philosophical arguments for it being true. So I don't consider myself a pagan even though I certainly do respect the old gods as far as this goes. As a German however I'm very aware that our modern idea of Germanic religion was ultimately formed by esotericists and nationalists of the nineteenth century who ultimately laid the groundwork for the toxic nationalism of the twentieth. So I'm very critical of my own love for these same aesthetics. But all this is ultimately irrelevant to my assessment of pre medieval history.
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Aug 23, 2017 11:56
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pidan posted:Well, I invite you do demonstrate it's falseness by linking me to a to an argument specifically for European (I was thinking of Germanic specifically, but I'll accept others) style polytheism that is based on reason and principles rather than personal experience, authority, poetry and tradition. plato
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Aug 23, 2017 11:57
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I don't know about Senju, but my position is that all religions encouraged murderously retarded behaviour at the time, and christianity is definitely no exception. I'm not sure you mean it to come off that way, but it seems like you're trying to window dress the fact that you'd rather have your psychos in charge than mine! I resent that line of thinking, because it's no more rational than, say, thinking that dying for Odin is the best path. E: and modern pagans are quite aware that German völkisch thinkers are horrible idiots, we trace our lineage to Snorri Sturlason and other sagas instead. Tias fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 11:58
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also i mean christianity is based off poetic traditions. so's a lot of hinduism. both have strong intellectual traditions. and heck jews used to be polytheistic and they developed a strong intellectual tradition, also from a poetic tradition. and then there's zoroastrianism. like seriously if you're making an argument about germanic heathenry say germanic heathenry. be specific because you keep expanding what you're talking about and generalizing it and that's making me go "uh no" my only statement about german heathenry would be "that's hosed" if you say they were better off having their culture genocided cause that's a hosed thing to say no matter who says it
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Aug 23, 2017 12:02
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i don't know poo poo about german paganism but i do know about greek roman japanese hindu chinese native american native australian etc religions and when you say they're less rational because they're polytheistic i'm like "??????" if you want a pepsi, ask for a pepsi- the late bernie mac
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Aug 23, 2017 12:06
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i've had no sleep and a large iced coffee and i'm hosed up so take what i say with more of a grain of salt
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Aug 23, 2017 12:16
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Go to sleep. You don't have to 
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Aug 23, 2017 12:25
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Gonna jump in the breach with my own heresy: We missed the feast day of St. Guinefort by a day! http://ultimatehistoryproject.com/the-cult-of-guinefort-an-unusual-saint.html A good boy! Not an official saint (in fact, his veneration was forbidden several times during the last centuries due to people doing really weird stuff at his shrine - and him being a dog), but apparently he still helps those who ask for his help and children in particular.  If it's wrong to like St. Guinefort, I don't wanna be right.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:32
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SavageGentleman posted:Gonna jump in the breach with my own heresy: We missed the feast day of St. Guinefort by a day! http://ultimatehistoryproject.com/the-cult-of-guinefort-an-unusual-saint.html Senju Kannon posted:plato anyway, i get the impression that the neonazis have taken over the rest of the internet dark enlightenment, but I haven't had the heart to check out hyper-conservative Orthodox tumblr. Has the alt-right colonized them too? Have we gone from a fascinating ecosystem of hosed up little groups to just straight up pepe nazis?
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Aug 23, 2017 12:35
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There's definitely cross-pollination. Some young catholics have peped out too, as far as I can tell.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:39
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SavageGentleman posted:Gonna jump in the breach with my own heresy: We missed the feast day of St. Guinefort by a day! http://ultimatehistoryproject.com/the-cult-of-guinefort-an-unusual-saint.html dog god and dog saint sittin in a tree
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Aug 23, 2017 12:41
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Tias posted:There's definitely cross-pollination. Some young catholics have peped out too, as far as I can tell.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:42
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HEY GAIL posted:There's been cross pollination since the beginning, but have these ideas just 100% taken over I don't think so, after all, there will always be fundamentalists who won't follow secular nazis.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:43
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Tias posted:I don't think so, after all, there will always be fundamentalists who won't follow secular nazis.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:58
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HEY GAIL posted:i wonder if we'll see a recapitulation of the original german conservative/monarchist opposition to the original nazis? there's quite a lot to hate in fascism from the conservative pov some of tradcath twitter doesn't like nazis for that reason, but frankly most of the trads on twitter are mad that we're not still stuck in the intellectually moribund world of victorian neo-thomism, because they have a difficult time reading anything longer than about fifty pages but still want to be "intellectual" sorry i really really don't like trad twitter
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Aug 23, 2017 14:30
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Conservative Catholics invariably choose the Republican party over the Church whenever the two disagree. (Source: people on facebook I haven't spoken to since high school)
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Aug 23, 2017 14:46
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Bel_Canto posted:some of tradcath twitter doesn't like nazis for that reason, but frankly most of the trads on twitter are mad that we're not still stuck in the intellectually moribund world of victorian neo-thomism, because they have a difficult time reading anything longer than about fifty pages but still want to be "intellectual"
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Aug 23, 2017 15:22
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HEY GAIL posted:i've been thinking recently about how the far right is anti-intellectual but they still hunger for the trappings of intellectualism--wearing tweed in public appearances, trotting out their pet college professors every time they need an appeal to authority. Or the Nazification of the universities in Germany in the 40s. What they can't create, they either ape or destroy. Is it ressentiment? Whatever it is, it's interesting. I don't think it's consciously anti-intellectual in the sense of a blanket denunciation of intellectualism, they just don't trust anything written after 1600 or so
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Aug 23, 2017 15:46
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P-Mack posted:Conservative Catholics invariably choose the Republican party over the Church whenever the two disagree. (Source: people on facebook I haven't spoken to since high school) I knew a guy in high school who wanted to be a priest but when Francis became pope he refused to join a corrupt church
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Aug 23, 2017 16:10
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HEY GAIL posted:anyway, i get the impression that the neonazis have taken over the rest of the internet dark enlightenment, but I haven't had the heart to check out hyper-conservative Orthodox tumblr. Has the alt-right colonized them too? Have we gone from a fascinating ecosystem of hosed up little groups to just straight up pepe nazis? They're certainly the most anti-Semitic group in the alt-right aside from the actual Nazis. Lots of posts of neat icons followed by "the Holocaust wasn't real but it should have been" and I must've missed the ecumenical council that said you need to put The Happy Merchant into every meme you make.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:27
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StashAugustine posted:I don't think it's consciously anti-intellectual in the sense of a blanket denunciation of intellectualism, they just don't trust anything written after 1600 or so they also don't trust anything other than a naïve and uncritical reading of the stuff they do like. they're fundamentally opposed to the intellectual enterprise in the sense of critical exploration of ideas. they want everything to be written like the baltimore catechism. this is why they love victorian neo-scholasticism: it butchers aquinas into easily-digestible excerpts and summaries rather than engaging with the substance of his works or his commentators.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:37
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The Phlegmatist posted:I must've missed the ecumenical council that said you need to put The Happy Merchant into every meme you make.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:54
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It's also a sense of misguided nostalgia: many want to go back to a pre-V2 Church where the frontlines between Catholic and Protestant and Church and World or the social and ecclesiastical order and hierarchy where still very clear, at least in their imagination. Most don't realise that the Church they want to have back was not only a historical exception (the 1850-1950 timeframe where the Church was aggressively antimodernist while both hierarchy and laity exhibited a strong consensus and cooperation never existed before and likely will never exist again) but also imaginary as well, seeing as even then there was a lot of conflict within the Church as well, let aside the whole epoch being an intellectual catastrophe for the Church it still hasn't recovered from.P-Mack posted:Conservative Catholics invariably choose the Republican party over the Church whenever the two disagree. (Source: people on facebook I haven't spoken to since high school) Interestingly, there appear to be the first signs of division: in a sort-of-traddy Facebook group I'm reading that's reliably conservative someone recently posted an article where the supposed misery of the contemporary Church was attributed to the “alt-left“, and every single commenter (whom I suspect tend heavily Republican) decried it as bullshit and openly accused Trump of making the alt-left up, which surprised me quite a bit.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:05
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There's also a desire to avoid engaging with anything that can be perceived as liberal, e.g. it's pretty clear that a lot of conservative Calvinists have never read Barth, they've just read what Van Til had to say about Barth.HEY GAIL posted:you should tell them that by posting populist art designed to stir the passions of the masses they are already the corrupt modernists they hate, namaste I do like to point out that the secret sauce behind their love of ethnonationalism is actually modernism. Specifically 19th century theories about race. And Julius Evola is not...exactly someone you want to be taking spiritual advice from. Or the general "have you talked to your priest about this" but a lot of the hyperdox unsurprisingly have self-selected into schismatic churches so their clergy probably agrees with them. They all seem to really love Brother Nathanael, despite the fact that he's...not even a monk? He just pretends to be one. He has no ecclesiastical support. So he's essentially making a mockery of Orthodox religious life but he's cool and good since he's a raging anti-Semite, I guess.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:29
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The Phlegmatist posted:ethnonationalism edit: the entire idea that commoners can have "race" at all is an extension of arguments made about nobles and "breeding" in the 16th and 17th century to all other humans. It's true. Look it up. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 18:36
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The Phlegmatist posted:Or the general "have you talked to your priest about this" but a lot of the hyperdox unsurprisingly have self-selected into schismatic churches so their clergy probably agrees with them.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:31
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Oh and also Duginism has become increasingly controversial among the hyperdox. Turns out that the guy who openly admits to attempting to destabilize the west by inflaming preexisting ethnic tensions might not be so cool after all when you have a creeping moment of self-realization that you are now a radicalized neo-Nazi but you're not Russian.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:Oh and also Duginism has become increasingly controversial among the hyperdox.
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Aug 23, 2017 19:35
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