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I AM CARVALLO posted:I still don't understand the backlash with the LCG model and needing more than one core. Msrp on a booster box of magic is 144 baka gaijin, most stores, especially online, sell them at a heavy discount if not slightly above cost
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Aug 23, 2017 16:44
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The fact is that you can buy a complete board or computer game for the same price as a single core set. I put up with this model for Netrunner, but it's only gotten worse since FFG has seen that the player base tolerates it. I probably won't this time around. I want to play the game, but it's just so stupidly expensive compared to the other places I could put my entertainment budget.
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Aug 23, 2017 16:53
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I AM CARVALLO posted:I still don't understand the backlash with the LCG model and needing more than one core. I was annoyed with Arkham Horror because so much of the extra cards are just scenario cards you'll never use. They really could have just done a single Core with that game without that much additional cost, since there really weren't that many player cards.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:09
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Corbeau posted:The fact is that you can buy a complete board or computer game for the same price as a single core set. I put up with this model for Netrunner, but it's only gotten worse since FFG has seen that the player base tolerates it. OK so the thing is that this is effectively a "complete" board game. It's a 2-player game that allows you to play 1v1s with any of the factions in the box, but leaves space for the people who go for the full collecting-and-playing experience. The boardgames I can buy for <£30 do not have a lot in the box and rarely have excellent production quality. Tiny Epic Galaxies, a cool and fun little game with 52 cards and some very basic components, is the same price. L5R has ~250 cards, larger and higher quality rulebooks, and more + better physical components (dials and tokens). FFG have to balance between cheap buy-in for new people, lack of wastage when people buy multiple cores, and actually trying to make some profit. (btw - Netrunner also came after Warhammer & AGoT v1, which both used this system, and the Call of Cthulhu LCG probably did too.)
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Aug 23, 2017 17:14
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GrandpaPants posted:I was annoyed with Arkham Horror because so much of the extra cards are just scenario cards you'll never use. They really could have just done a single Core with that game without that much additional cost, since there really weren't that many player cards. I went single core Arkham Horror and have not really been disappointed by it. Might be a little harder to clear the scenario's that way but I don't really mind the game being harder. Value VS Cost on l5R Cores is better than Netrunner Cores at least since you don't end up with as many useless cards. Only thing you get extras of on 3 cores is Neutral cards that you might want more of anyways. You will have 6 of each Neutral meaning at 6 cores you can run 2 full powered 40/40 decks (that don't splash the same Clan) with zero wasted cards. Netrunner left me a bunch of cards I have 9 copies of with no use. 1 Core decks play just fine as well if you just want to play VS other people. You won't be as powerful but it is like playing MTG starter decks VS each other.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:16
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I like how in this hobby Warhammer and Magic are used as high water marks for spending. X-Wing Player: "It kinda sucks that the Emperor Palpatine crew card is gated behind a $99 MSRP huge ship that isn't legal for standard play. I don't like spending $100 to buy the three cards I want" Someone else: "You can buy 1x of literally every X-Wing expansion for about $1500 total. That's like, 1 year of playing MtG or one decent Warhammer army" What do Warhammer and MtG players use as comparisons for other more expensive hobbies. Drugs? Demolition derby? Stunt aircraft racing?
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Aug 23, 2017 17:30
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Warhammer players use MtG, MtG players use Warhammer. People that play both don't make such comparisons anymore because they are clearly beyond caring anyway and have reached a state of money-burning zen.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:37
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I was talking about the Warhammer LCG, by FFG.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:42
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canyoneer posted:I like how in this hobby Warhammer and Magic are used as high water marks for spending. Most MTG players I know compare to Yugioh. Most decent legal YGO decks are in the $500 a pop range and almost never share cards with other decks. Most MTG legal top decks are in the $200 range as a comparison. You only get nuts when you are heading into the Commander or Legacy formats. Warhammer on the other hand is just insane. The people who play at my work once worked out they are paying around 3-5k a year on Warhammer, this is lower than they expected.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:45
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A dude I play X-Wing with disagreed with me when I said that overall, X-Wing is much cheaper to be competitive in than Warhammer. Turns out he used to play a lot of hams, and now in X-Wing he buys at least 3-5 copies of every new expansion, and so has spent upwards of $5k on X-Wing. Well yeah, dude, if you're gonna do it that way
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Aug 23, 2017 17:52
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The multi-core set issues could be easily solved if FFG just made an upgrade pack available in a blister pack to give you a complete playset, just 1-2 copies of everything the core is missing, no book or tokens, etc. Almost everyone would purchase it and be much happier than being forced to buy extra cores. It would never happen though because the only thing that it changes is how much money FFG gets.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:52
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LordNat posted:Warhammer on the other hand is just insane. The people who play at my work once worked out they are paying around 3-5k a year on Warhammer, this is lower than they expected. This being why every other minis game exploded in popularity over the last ~5 years or so. Brand loyalty may be a hell of a drug, but it's not invincible.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:54
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Bottom Liner posted:The multi-core set issues could be easily solved if FFG just made an upgrade pack available in a blister pack to give you a complete playset, just 1-2 copies of everything the core is missing, no book or tokens, etc. Almost everyone would purchase it and be much happier than being forced to buy extra cores. It would never happen though because the only thing that it changes is how much money FFG gets. It's still cost about the same as a core set after printing, shipping, etc. Logistically it is not really worth it on the already tiny margins that board games make. Plus from a marketing point if you get someone to buy 3 cores they are way more likely to justify buying the expiation packs. The "I am already so invested" effect in action.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:55
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LordNat posted:It's still cost about the same as a core set after printing, shipping, etc. Logistically it is not really worth it on the already tiny margins that board games make. The blister packs for the LCGs are only 60 cards and certainly cheaper to manufacture than the core boxes. That's what I had in mind. But yeah, FFG like the model because it's so profitable and effective at hooking players into the system.
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Aug 23, 2017 17:58
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Remember that "upgrade packs" also complicate shelf space and supply chain logistics (stores would always prefer to simplify their SKU situation) compared to just cranking out more of the same core box. FFG's strategy makes sense, but it's a big value hit for me. Just this week I pulled out my old Ashes core set with some buddies - a core set that offered playsets of every card. The main thing L5R has over that is the brand, and I'm not sure the brand is that compelling anymore. That's a personal value judgement though; for some, it clearly is that compelling.
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Aug 23, 2017 18:05
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Corbeau posted:Remember that "upgrade packs" also complicate shelf space and supply chain logistics (stores would always prefer to simplify their SKU situation) compared to just cranking out more of the same core box. FFG's strategy makes sense, but it's a big value hit for me. Just this week I pulled out my old Ashes core set with some buddies - a core set that offered playsets of every card. The main thing L5R has over that is the brand, and I'm not sure the brand is that compelling anymore. That's a personal value judgement though; for some, it clearly is that compelling. Oh man I wish Ashes had any kind of community behind it. Loved the game but there was just no competitive side of the game to keep it moving forward. But ya I agree much of the LCG model is buying into a brand. If I had not played old L5R for so long I'd likely not be nearly as into it as I am now.
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Aug 23, 2017 18:09
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Corbeau posted:Remember that "upgrade packs" also complicate shelf space and supply chain logistics (stores would always prefer to simplify their SKU situation) compared to just cranking out more of the same core box. FFG's strategy makes sense, but it's a big value hit for me. Just this week I pulled out my old Ashes core set with some buddies - a core set that offered playsets of every card. The main thing L5R has over that is the brand, and I'm not sure the brand is that compelling anymore. That's a personal value judgement though; for some, it clearly is that compelling. Ashes is roughly the same size for slightly more money. FFG could have gone the same route in which case they'd either have to jack the price up or reduce the number of factions in the core set. (Is Ashes any good? I might well pick up a set, as my friends tend not to be big fans of LCG style deckbuilding concepts but could probably handle drafting) Thirsty Dog fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 18:13
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LordNat posted:Most MTG players I know compare to Yugioh. Most decent legal YGO decks are in the $500 a pop range and almost never share cards with other decks. Most MTG legal top decks are in the $200 range as a comparison. This isn't exactly true. MtG has a bunch of formats, with varying prices for each. Standard is typically around 200 per deck, although there's times/decks where the average price spikes (a couple years ago most top decks were around 500 in standard). Modern, which is probably the most popular format decks tend to be 700-1200. Legacy is roughly 700-2000+. And Vintage is 5-10k typically. Commander can actually be a very cheap format-I know people who play and probably don't spend much over 50-200 per deck. However it can easily balloon up too, with decks that cost 3-4k. Warhammer is pretty nuts though. Buy in for a new army now I think is typically around 2500-3000 or so, but that's mostly hearsay as I've not played in forever (I tend to play the smaller, cheaper mini games).
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Aug 23, 2017 18:16
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Bottom Liner posted:The multi-core set issues could be easily solved if FFG just made an upgrade pack available in a blister pack to give you a complete playset, just 1-2 copies of everything the core is missing, no book or tokens, etc. Almost everyone would purchase it and be much happier than being forced to buy extra cores. It would never happen though because the only thing that it changes is how much money FFG gets. You're also failing to consider how a retailer would carry such a product, nor the fact that an upgrade pack like that would hamper them being able to market current cores as "complete" games. From a store perspective, any cores that don't also sell an upgrade pack end up causes you to have dead product. I'm not saying I wouldn't love it, or that I wouldn't like FFG to adjust how they do things (as someone who bought 6 cores of AGoT 1.0 and 2.0 I feel the pain) but there are valid issues beyond FFG just being greedy. Also had I not played before I think I would've actually been more likely to get into L5R since I wouldn't have had the old game to compare against. That said they're likely getting/have gotten my money already for it so that's kinda moot.
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Aug 23, 2017 18:24
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While it's admittedly garbage that you can't do two oegal 40/40 decks out of a single core, the bitching about multiple core sets is kind of ridiculous at this point. FFG has three options to choose from when it comes to core sets. Option 1 is wide card range, minimal duplication, and standard 2p boardgame price point. This is the model they've chosen. Option 2: Wide card range, full playsets, and ~$100 (or more) price point: While a better experience for the invested player, you lose all the people who would buy in to dip their toe at the $40 price point. FFG has stated that a lot of the people who play only buy a single core set for a long time. Given that WotC estimates that ~95% of its purchasers never attend an official event I can imagine there's a similar rate for FFG. Another downfall is additional complication between opening and playing. The "make a deck by taking allyour faction cards and a copy of your neutrals" becomes much more complicated with full playsets of everything. Option 3: narrow card range, full playsets, $40 MSRP. Gives a "complete" experience out of one box, at the cost of diversity and a very limited card pool until expansions roll out. Given the 3-6 month lag between core set release and first expansion releasing, this risks a game going DOA. Remember Netrunner almost died in a lot of stores during that gap. I personally prefer the GoT as style of 1x of every card (2x of neutrals) to give the widest array of cards in a single core. You can play it stand alone with a friend, or you can buy 3 with minimal wasted card. Netrunner was the most agregious with the last core set being bought for 7 (or realistically 3) cards.
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Aug 23, 2017 18:29
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alansmithee posted:You're also failing to consider how a retailer would carry such a product, nor the fact that an upgrade pack like that would hamper them being able to market current cores as "complete" games. From a store perspective, any cores that don't also sell an upgrade pack end up causes you to have dead product. They'd have to guesstimate "completion packs" and I'd hate to be the one forecasting that. Then trying to pitch it to stores. Realistically they'd either sell out in a heartbeat or sit on a store's shelf forever, generating animosity between the retailer and ffg. It's hard enough for stores to justify using shelf space for the every growing expansions to the LCGs, since they're competing with online retailers. Though that's an easier pill to swallow now that the price difference is only ~$2.
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Aug 23, 2017 18:32
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It would be a lot easier to swallow if two cores was enough.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:27
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OB_Juan posted:It would be a lot easier to swallow if two cores was enough. Limited cards to 2 copies each or be stuck with 1 extra copy of all the cards in the game. Seems like a lose/lose option.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:33
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Thirsty Dog posted:Ashes is roughly the same size for slightly more money. FFG could have gone the same route in which case they'd either have to jack the price up or reduce the number of factions in the core set. Ashes decks aren't so complicated that you can't just deck build for them and tell them what the deck does. You've got 30 cards and realistically you're only going to be looking at about 12-15 unique cards because you typically want to have mutliples because multiple copies of in play summoning spells offer discounts or additional effects when summoning. Ashes is a good game but the slow release of cards killed it a bit for us. It's a very fun system, I've made so many different decks for it because many of the characters can support a wide variety of deck compositions. There are some balance issues with the characters but otherwise it's pretty good.
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Aug 23, 2017 20:57
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PaybackJack posted:Ashes decks aren't so complicated that you can't just deck build for them and tell them what the deck does. You've got 30 cards and realistically you're only going to be looking at about 12-15 unique cards because you typically want to have mutliples because multiple copies of in play summoning spells offer discounts or additional effects when summoning. Neat, cheers.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:02
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PaybackJack posted:Ashes decks aren't so complicated that you can't just deck build for them and tell them what the deck does. You've got 30 cards and realistically you're only going to be looking at about 12-15 unique cards because you typically want to have mutliples because multiple copies of in play summoning spells offer discounts or additional effects when summoning. Same in my area, it's a cool game but the impossibility of getting any cards totally killed it.
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Aug 23, 2017 21:17
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Magic is the high water mark. I sold my collection because I had moved for my wife's post-doc and didn't immediately find a new job. I made more off the cardboard than my salary from the previous year. I knew people in the vintage community that had collections insured for like $60-70k. I cannot imagine buying back into Magic unless I won a lottery jackpot. It's totally hosed my ability to assess what a reasonable amount of money for a card game is. Dropping $120 for a playset of everything seems super reasonable if you ever sold single cards for $300+.
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Aug 23, 2017 22:40
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Karnegal posted:Magic is the high water mark. I sold my collection because I had moved for my wife's post-doc and didn't immediately find a new job. I made more off the cardboard than my salary from the previous year. I knew people in the vintage community that had collections insured for like $60-70k. I cannot imagine buying back into Magic unless I won a lottery jackpot. It's totally hosed my ability to assess what a reasonable amount of money for a card game is. Dropping $120 for a playset of everything seems super reasonable if you ever sold single cards for $300+. On the other hand you don't have to play in those formats that require hella expensive cards
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Aug 23, 2017 22:44
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:On the other hand you don't have to play in those formats that require hella expensive cards On the other hand you don't have to play in any format. Gasp, a revelation is had!
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Aug 23, 2017 23:05
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:On the other hand you don't have to play in those formats that require hella expensive cards I said the same to a friend and he went on a long rant about how WotC has made standard format poo poo and modern is the only good one to play now because they want to push the card sales of their premium sets (where boosters are like $12 a pack). loving nuts that so many people are so hog wild about that type of model still. That game has its hooks deep man.
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Aug 23, 2017 23:59
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That's why I got rid of all my Destiny stuff. The collector itch is real, and I found myself wanting to get complete sets of everything 
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Aug 24, 2017 00:30
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GrandpaPants posted:I was annoyed with Arkham Horror because so much of the extra cards are just scenario cards you'll never use. They really could have just done a single Core with that game without that much additional cost, since there really weren't that many player cards. The encounter sets are quite busy being re-used in both Core Set and Dunwich campaigns, so while not really necessary, the spares come pretty handy at least.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:34
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BJPaskoff posted:You can only build one deck from one core set, or you need two core sets to build even one legal deck? Because either one would be a new low for FFG's core set sales strategy, but the latter would be some serious bullshit. you cn build one 80 card deck per core (although youll be hurting without dupes). in order fr both people to have a full deck they each need one or one person nneeds two, and if you want dupes of anythng thats not neutral (looks like at least some neutrals have dupes) you need two
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Aug 24, 2017 01:32
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I AM CARVALLO posted:I still don't understand the backlash with the LCG model and needing more than one core. "they could be gouging me harder" isnt a great argument against how its lovely to get gouged
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Aug 24, 2017 01:34
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The spare encounter sets for 2x Arkham cores were super duper useful when the only thing out was the core set. Being able to have all three core set scenarios built and ready to go without having to switch out encounter sets was a really nice quality of life bonus. Now that way more scenarios are out that continue to use core encounter sets, yeah, those cards are kind of a waste.
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Aug 24, 2017 01:37
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I prefer the LCG model to CCG. Only problem is getting organized play to take off, imho. Magic is the best game, so it doesn't have this problem.
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Aug 24, 2017 03:32
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always be closing posted:I prefer the LCG model to CCG. Only problem is getting organized play to take off, imho. I've always been impressed with how far they've pushed the system, but I find some modern games like Netrunner, Game of Thrones, Destiny, and now L5R to be much much more interesting in the way they handle things like resources, player actions, and deck building. Magic is such an abstracted mechanical game at this point that I view it like Dominion.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:50
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always be closing posted:I prefer the LCG model to CCG. Only problem is getting organized play to take off, imho. One thing that keeps magic running is that people can and do have 10+ decks assembled or partially assembled at any given time. Doing that with an LCG is either very difficult or very expensive.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:54
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I'm okay with having to spend extra money for a complete set. I just hate having to buy three of something, because it's not one of something. I suppose that's the same reasoning everyone else has for hating the multiple core sets, also. It's sort of like that thing where you can give a preschooler and yourself a cookie and they'll be happy with the situation, but cut your cookie into three parts and suddenly it's not fair you have three of something and they only have one. Everyone else thinks the same way, which is why it's impossible to get any of my friends into LCGs - except VS System, which gives you a full playset. It's also annoying when a game first comes out and it's hard to get, because getting just one box can be hard enough, let alone three.
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Aug 24, 2017 05:02
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canyoneer posted:That's why I got rid of all my Destiny stuff. The collector itch is real, and I found myself wanting to get complete sets of everything Preorder your play set through Team Covenant for a mere $300usd! 
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Aug 24, 2017 12:08
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