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FrozenVent posted:Had the rudder and it's supporting arrangement been properly designed? Dude, first off let me tell you that I do appreciate your perspective and I think you've raised some good points in this discussion. And I have been beating the drum about sleep deprivation in the Surface Community for a while now but unfortunately my drum is not very big. THAT all said, a merchant ship is not a loving warship. Do I think that the surface Navy could stand to adopt some best practices from civilian maritime world, absolutely. But there is a lot more going on a warship than on a merchant. That doesn't excuse the sleep deprivation problems at all. But its sort of disingenuous to go "oh merchant ships can do it, why cant the US Navy?"
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Aug 24, 2017 12:25
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"those things happen!"
) we capped out at 16 hours a day.
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Destroyers have a lot of redundancies for steering, but it comes down to if the systems up and were the right people in the right spaces to make use of the redundancies. Right now we don't know, and we probably won't for a while. The fact that they still haven't found all the sailors is terrible. The puncture is deep, but does that mean that sailors were sucked out? Is the damage so bad that they still haven't been able to get enough steel out of the way to find more in the ship? We on the FITZ at least had the closure of finding them all within 28 hours or so of our collision. Until the investigation is released, I still really can't speak about the circumstances regarding our collision. Obviously sleep is a huge factor, and had the 17th been a normal day, I would have been getting about 5 hours of sleep that day before having to get up, walk spaces for inspection, do work, and then go on watch. There's been a lot regarding SWO culture lately, especially concerning sleep and sleep deprivation. The really funny thing? The BRM brief that the higher ups felt we needed to have yesterday? Included an entire section about how 19 hours of wakefulness is the equivalent of a .08 blood alcohol level. Yet, it's still a huge factor in how we as SWOs live our lives. On my first deployment, my ship did do circadian rhythm. Great right? Except we rotated every week, so there there literally weeks were I would get less than 4 hours of sleep at a shot. I remember telling a DH that I was getting 6 hours of sleep. 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 between my watch. My XO did try to say that that was the worst thing we could do, but the CO wouldn't hear it. Also ,I was miss spelling a name. It's Rear Admiral Williams. I think he's a little mad at me. I was very angry when I asked my question yesterday. Much more chill today after talking with my Top Snipe.
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Aug 24, 2017 12:57
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The Valley Stared posted:Destroyers have a lot of redundancies for steering, but it comes down to if the systems up and were the right people in the right spaces to make use of the redundancies. Right now we don't know, and we probably won't for a while. NPS has an entire website devoted to circadian based watch rotations. One thing it says is that 5 and dimes are the absolute worst watch rotation and that if you are going to do circadian you have to commit to it fully. It also says you should not rotate often. Your body needs time to acclimate to the cycle. Changing the rotation every week defeats the whole purpose of doing a circadian watch rotation.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:14
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I've done the 4-5 hour sleep routine working two jobs + college. At least any fuckups on my part would only affect me. I can't fathom doing sleep deprived work where the well-being of others can be compromised by my fuckups as well. It would be nerve wracking.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:15
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We did circadian that rotated every two weeks that wasn't too bad.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:20
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Mr. Nice! posted:We did circadian that rotated every two weeks that wasn't too bad. We rotated every port visit, so 25-40 days. I think that's the way to do it really since the port visit is essentially a reset.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:31
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We spent two and a half months between liberty ports on my last deployment. Wouldn't work to switch then, but i agree if they're frequent port calls are a good reset.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:47
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PneumonicBook posted:We rotated every port visit, so 25-40 days. I think that's the way to do it really since the port visit is essentially a reset. Yeah, and that really is the best way to do it. The officers wanted to do it on the FITZ, but it was decided that since the whole crew couldn't participate for various reasons, 5 hour watches it was (OODs were in a 4 watch rotation, so not 5 and dimes, but still not a set sleeping schedule). We tried it for about a month and went back. Under my last CO on my first ship we did circadian correctly and it was fine. If we were out for 2 weeks or more, we went to it and we stuck with it the entire time. I was actually on the 12-3 watches, and while it sucked for the first few days, my body adjusted. The other benefit was that my sailors almost always knew where I was at a given time because our schedules were so set. It really worked for everyone.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:52
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It sounds like they still haven't reversed the horrible optimal manning decisions of the early 00s and got more bodies on ships even though they said the program was dead and a mistake years ago.
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Aug 24, 2017 14:01
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PneumonicBook posted:There's nothing expensive about an LCS. Casualties in a shooting war will be.
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Aug 24, 2017 14:17
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Godholio posted:Casualties in a shooting war will be. Good thing they're not designed to be used in a shooting war.
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Aug 24, 2017 14:31
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The gently caress is the point of a warship that can't go to war?
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Aug 24, 2017 14:32
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If you're not going to fight with them, redesignate them USNS, put civilians on them, and just attach military when necessary.
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Aug 24, 2017 14:33
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Mr. Nice! posted:The gently caress is the point of a warship that can't go to war? Man, some real salty people in here that an LCS is in fact, not a DDG. It's a 500 million dollar ship that's meant to go cruise around for force projection. That's it. Any cursory look at its actual capabilities tells you that. Admirals were sick of sending loving billion dollar ships to do circles by pirates and low risk areas I guess. Ironically due to its C4I capabilities it doesn't really even do that well though, lol. You get what you pay for. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 14:34
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PneumonicBook posted:Man, some real salty people in here that an LCS is in fact, not a DDG. Nah it doesn't need to be a DDG. DDGs are loving great, but they do have some limitations. I'm just saying if they have no purpose in a fight, and they are finicky enough to justify long-term specialized crew over people who rotate off every couple of years to never return they'd be better suited as full on support ships with civilian manning.
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Aug 24, 2017 14:39
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PneumonicBook posted:Man, some real salty people in here that an LCS is in fact, not a DDG. Each 500 million spent on one of these lovely ships is 500 million that wasn't plowed into ASCM and next gen land attack and I am salty about this, yes Also,  at the design of these ships which are intended for use as small boat and pirate deterrence. Something more akin to the OHP frigates would have been superior
Boon fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 14:55
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Mr. Nice! posted:The gently caress is the point of a warship that can't go to war? Corporate welfare.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:08
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like someone said, its the Bradley of the Sea
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Aug 24, 2017 15:30
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Mr. Nice! posted:I'm just saying if they have no purpose in a fight, and they are finicky enough to justify long-term specialized crew over people who rotate off every couple of years to never return There's nothing specialized about the crew. They're maintainers who (based on the 4 crews I've worked with) show zero ownership in the equipment. Additionally from what I've seen once you're in the community you don't leave. When they rotate off the hull they go to lcsron, then back to an Indy or freedom. Imo the only thing they need to do with these is pick one to do mine warfare full time and the other to be a force net ship with a better radar, link, and cec. Boon posted:Each 500 million spent on one of these lovely ships is 500 million that wasn't plowed into ASCM and next gen land attack and I am salty about this, yes Oh cmon, you know drat well they're entirely different pots of money. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 15:36
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Mr. Nice! posted:The gently caress is the point of a warship that can't go to war? ISR, anti piracy, search and rescue, assured access, etc. What were the point of escort carriers that couldn't take a hit and didn't have any anti-ship munitions to put on their planes? The Navy keeps trying to make everything a front line warship with radar and ECM and ~multirole~ M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 15:38
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M_Gargantua posted:
And that's really the issue. They keep adding poo poo but since these are supposed to be cheap and expendable you get cheap expendable systems. Bthen the sailor shows up and asks why x doesn't work like it does on uss loving multi billion dollar warship and I have to not have a brain aneurysm.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:42
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Sounds like you should make it work like it does on a multi billion dollar warship then 
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Aug 24, 2017 15:45
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PneumonicBook posted:And that's really the issue. They keep adding poo poo but since these are supposed to be cheap and expendable you get cheap expendable systems. Bthen the sailor shows up and asks why x doesn't work like it does on uss loving multi billion dollar warship and I have to not have a brain aneurysm. The problem with cheap and expendable is that anti-ship missiles are cheaper and more expendable. And if your cheap and expendable ship can't effectively protect itself, welp, I hope the crew was cheap and expendable too. LCS are gross overkill for loving pirate patrols, too. You could've built a cheaper frigate without the nonsensical modular ideas and some off-the-shelf EW systems for basic self-protection in case of a real "oh poo poo" moment, and it would've been half the cost.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:55
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I wanna get into procurement and maybe improve some small part of the system. Increment the counter toward long term solutions.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:55
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Godholio posted:The problem with cheap and expendable is that anti-ship missiles are cheaper and more expendable. And if your cheap and expendable ship can't effectively protect itself, welp, I hope the crew was cheap and expendable too. And a swarm of anti-ship missiles is still cheaper and more expendable than a DDG? The only way to stop offense is to strike first
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Aug 24, 2017 15:56
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Which you're not using an LCS for.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:57
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Yes, but you can use it to free up a DDG to be useful doing real work. If your worried about somolli pirates having anti-ship missiles then you're not setting realistic goals for what you expect ships to handle. A DDG is a billion dollars of overkill and extra upkeep for accomplishing a lot of low intensity tasking.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:59
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Godholio posted:LCS are gross overkill for loving pirate patrols, too. You could've built a cheaper frigate without the nonsensical modular ideas and some off-the-shelf EW systems for basic self-protection in case of a real "oh poo poo" moment, and it would've been half the cost. I'm not sure how you could knock 250 million off the price by just not building the mission package areas. The LCS already has an "off the shelf" ew system, and RAM on top.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:32
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My contention is that EW and RAM are superfluous to the job a cheap navy ship should actually be doing. If you wanna purchase a low observable litoral strike craft for opposed shorelines then that's a different mission set then the LCS has or is designed for. If you want to have a platform for low intensity long loiter surveillance. Hell you could have a nice VLS truck that is solely designed to rack 40 missiles for C2 for a DDG or air platform that has the targeting sensors. VLS tubes are cheap, radar and fire control is not.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:42
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just a layman, but isn't the issue with the LCS it's cost? IIRC it's way, way more expensive than equivalent types of ships in other navies.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:50
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Just build more Cyclones those were awesome and I was glad to get shanghai'd on one for a week. Literally, I volunteered to spend the day out off Key West on one so the crew could have thanksgiving in port, and we get out there and next thing we know we're enroute to GITMO. I barely made it back to Key West to sail on my actual ship (they were considering just doing an at-sea transfer but I was like I ONLY HAVE TWO SETS OF CLOTHES!)
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Aug 24, 2017 17:07
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TsarZiedonis posted:Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just a layman, but isn't the issue with the LCS it's cost? IIRC it's way, way more expensive than equivalent types of ships in other navies. Cost, Manning issues that haven't been worked out that are very strenuous on the crew. Lack of established procedures.
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Aug 24, 2017 17:14
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M_Gargantua posted:My contention is that EW and RAM are superfluous to the job a cheap navy ship should actually be doing. I mean they're more or less the cheapest defensive systems we have. Even though an LCS shouldn't be engaging I'd be wary of having a ship that operates in the op areas LCS does not having anything. TsarZiedonis posted:Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just a layman, but isn't the issue with the LCS it's cost? IIRC it's way, way more expensive than equivalent types of ships in other navies. Cost relative to mission effectiveness compared to other countries high end frigates. The mission modules being complete failures don't help the cost side. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 17:48
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Proud Christian Mom posted:like someone said, its the Bradley of the Sea Was the LCS the one with the crazy as gently caress driveline going all around the ship with diesels, turbines and something else all feeding into it through some loving bizarre array of gearboxes?
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Aug 24, 2017 19:14
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M_Gargantua posted:What were the point of escort carriers that couldn't take a hit and didn't have any anti-ship munitions to put on their planes? They were pretty good at holding off superior Jap fleets.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:18
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Two Finger posted:They were pretty good at holding off superior Jap fleets. thats my point, I was being sarcastic Taffy 3 was the bomb
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Aug 24, 2017 19:25
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M_Gargantua posted:thats my point, I was being sarcastic oh, went over my head sorry better read tin can sailors again
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Aug 24, 2017 19:26
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RE: Boots This is why I loved wearing Type IIIs when it was only NSW/NECC- we didn't have a congress of baboons and instruction wizards writing NAVADMINS as to which desert tan/brown boot we could wear. I wore the Nike "Free", as they are colloquially called (Nike SFB), and they're basically tennis shoes. Really great for garrison or boots and utes runs, but non-skid hosed them up and if you had to walk/ruck anywhere that had big, pointy, sharp rocks forget about it. I'm going to start a business that makes a boot brush that brushes a brown color because some idiot moronic E9 or Admiral is going to be like "but they need to polish".
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Aug 24, 2017 19:46
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LingcodKilla posted:gently caress so if you have to wear black boots you are still stuck with only steel toe. Ping your chain to see if they can work on the CO to authorize the sneakers. Ours realized we all work in an office (except for the deployers, who need steel toe) and gave the go ahead to switch to coyote brown with no steel toe I'm at a NIOC and we've had two not stupid COs in a row. Really fighting the odds now.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:50
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I never post in GIP anymore, but I used to be on the McCain back in 2004-2007 ish. I was an ET, I think my bunk was right where they got hit. Looks like half of CE is unaccounted for. It's like seeing your childhood home get hit by a meteor. For the people asking about manual steering, there's a way to do it, but it's on some ridiculous ratio, you'd have to spin the wheel hundreds of times to shift a degree.
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