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Sooooo I learned something today. If you're in QM and everyone on the enemy team leaves, the match ends. I did not know this, and apparently neither did anyone else on my team. We had a good laugh over.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:18
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biznatchio posted:And yet Zeratul's sitting at 44% winrate and they didn't buff him, Sonya's Wrath of the Berserker enjoys a huge pick rate and win rate advantage and Leap hasn't been adjusted to make it competitive, and the talent selection button to choose Hammer's BFG might as well be a "I want to lose the video game" button; and yet none of those have been addressed so it looks like this broken clock sure also doesn't match up with the devs' own internal data a lot, weird. Or maybe win rates aren't the only factor in their design decisions. It's almost like you can cherry pick specific anecdotes to support whatever narrative you want to push! This feels like a weak argument. Like yeah, duh, there's always going to be stuff out of whack and underpowered heroes and talents, but the point is that when Blizzard does flat nerf or buff stuff it's almost always consonant with Hotslogs winrates. If they straight up nerf Tychus or Zeratul or buff Nazeebo maybe you'll have a point.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:21
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biznatchio posted:And yet Zeratul's sitting at 44% winrate and they didn't buff him, Sonya's Wrath of the Berserker enjoys a huge pick rate and win rate advantage and Leap hasn't been adjusted to make it competitive, and the talent selection button to choose Hammer's BFG might as well be a "I want to lose the video game" button; and yet none of those have been addressed so it looks like this broken clock sure also doesn't match up with the devs' own internal data a lot, weird. Or maybe win rates aren't the only factor in their design decisions. It's almost like you can cherry pick specific anecdotes to support whatever narrative you want to push! It would be unsurprising to me if eventually all of the highest winrate characters in hotslogs were the least useful in competitive play, and vice-versa. The examples I gave were ones were the changes where the devs specifically cited high win rates, numbers that hotslogs also happened to have.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:22
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The point didn't seem to be that the devs are literally using HotsLogs for balancing purposes, but rather that the site maintains a fairly significant amount of uploads and is probably still (despite recent spikes of unpopularity due to the malware concerns) somewhat representative of whatever internal system blizz uses to track that same info and make their judgements off of. Pretending like it's a completely irrelevant, useless tool just because it's slightly less popular is bizarre. If the malware concerns or supporting the creator bother you, don't use it. It was never going to be 100% accurate but it's always been a fairly useful and informative tool, even if it shouldn't be anyone's sole resource for the game.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:16
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If the implication is that Hotslogs matches Blizzard's internal data collection and can predict their decision-making, then that claim has to be reconciled with the balance changes that Blizzard inexplicably doesn't make despite the data, as well as the ones they do make that appear to contradict the data. If the conclusion is that Blizzard doesn't rely solely on winrates to make balancing decisions, then Hotslogs is as useless as critics say it is.
Toady fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 20:16
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Toady posted:If the implication is that Hotslogs matches Blizzard's internal data collection and can predict their decision-making, then that claim has to be reconciled with the balance changes that Blizzard inexplicably doesn't make despite the data, as well as the ones they do make that appear to contradict the data. If the conclusion is that Blizzard doesn't rely solely on winrates to make balancing decisions, then Hotslogs is as useless as critics say it is.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:31
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Hotslogs is probably within about 1% of the true win rate across the board for any given hero with a 95% confidence interval. They get a shitload of samples. It would be nice to be able to slice the data by player MMR as well, though. But regardless of how accurate or inaccurate the Hotslogs data are, balance decisions are not only predicated by win rate. Blizzard probably has the data to see how well The Butcher does in situations where they intend him to be at a disadvantage- ie no synergy from his team and/or lots of counter heroes on the other team, and can trim outliers from the data set by disregarding games where people repetitively disconnect or get reported AFK or intentionally feeding. Dietrich fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 20:33
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No Wave posted:Yes because blizzard doesn't exclusively use winrate when balancing, winrate has no effect on their balancing decisions and nobody rational could have seen these Xul or Butcher changes coming. I don't recall anyone saying winrates have no effect. The argument is that if Blizzard's decisions may or may not consider winrates to varying degrees, and they not only make changes not predicted by the data but also don't always make changes that are suggested by the data, then Hotslogs is as useless as people say it is beyond being an indicator of certain top-level trends. This can be interesting to look at, but it's not an objective indicator of the game's overall balance or a reliable predictor.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:56
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Toady posted:Nobody said winrates have no effect on their decisions. That's not the argument. If Blizzard's decisions may or may not consider winrates to varying degrees, and they not only make changes not predicted by the data but also don't always make changes that are suggested by the data, then Hotslogs is as useless as people say it is beyond being an indicator of certain top-level trends. This can be interesting to look at, but it's not an objective indicator of the game's overall balance or a reliable predictor.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:01
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Toady posted:I don't recall anyone saying winrates have no effect. The argument is that if Blizzard's decisions may or may not consider winrates to varying degrees, and they not only make changes not predicted by the data but also don't always make changes that are suggested by the data, then Hotslogs is as useless as people say it is beyond being an indicator of certain top-level trends. This can be interesting to look at, but it's not an objective indicator of the game's overall balance or a reliable predictor. Was anyone claiming that HOTSLOGS was valuable because it...predicted Blizz's balancing changes? People use it to track their own stats and see what heroes/talents are most powerful. There's every indication the HOTSLOGS data is roughly accurate.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:03
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No Wave posted:So because Blizzard doesn't ALWAYS balance EXCLUSIVELY by winrate, hotslogs is useless. Got it, good way to use numbers. It's useless in the way you apparently want to use it, as a reliable predictor of balance changes.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:04
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porfiria posted:Was anyone claiming that HOTSLOGS was valuable because it...predicted Blizz's balancing changes? Scroll up.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:05
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oh gently caress shut upppppppppp
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Aug 24, 2017 21:07
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Toady posted:It's useless in the way you apparently want to use it, as a reliable predictor of balance changes.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:08
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Toady posted:Scroll up. As far as I can tell the only claim was that straight nerfs and buffs almost always landed on strong/weak heroes per Hotslogs, and so Hotslogs is probably reflective of actual winrates. Which is true. Also, you said Hotslogs "is as useless as people say it is beyond being an indicator of certain top-level trends." I guess you're saying that the site's sample is biased toward higher level play? Which is probably true but I don't think that means it's "useless." I don't even see how those thoughts are connected. There was a guy on here a few weeks ago who said Hotslogs' data on Tychus, for example, was only a couple of points from Blizzard's internal numbers for what that's worth.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:10
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Toshimo posted:I, for one, could do without any sexy lady Zagara skins. I want a robo Zagara skin. Then again I want robo everything. I will spend all the money on this gameif they one day do a Greymane skin where he's a suspiciously Voltron looking robot and then transforms into a robot lion.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:49
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If the HotS balance team operates anything like the Overwatch balance team then just because something is showing outlying numbers doesn't mean they're going to put a rush job on nerfing/buffing it.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:50
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Fuzz posted:I want a robo Zagara skin.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:57
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Toshimo posted:I, for one, could do without any sexy lady Zagara skins. Sexy Zag'z is best Zag'z
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Aug 24, 2017 21:58
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Henker posted:
Wait... do you not?
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Aug 24, 2017 22:00
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No Wave posted:I'm convinced that if Chen got a skin that wouldn't make him a stupid panda he'd see more play at least in QP. Like a mech version that looks like a t rex and guzzles gasoline (and turned into 3 velociraptors for sef) Except people play Li Li all the time, so... Maybe they don't play Chen because his gimmick is kinda poo poo and he's buggy.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:04
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No Wave posted:Nice, a claim I never made. If you're going to come in halfway through a conversation at least read the context of my posts before imputing statements to me. You cited Kerrigan winrate, Butcher winrate, and Garrosh talents to make the point that it's accurate enough in predicting balance changes to be effectively equivalent to Blizzard's internal data. If that's not what you intended, that's how it came across. porfiria posted:Also, you said Hotslogs "is as useless as people say it is beyond being an indicator of certain top-level trends." I guess you're saying that the site's sample is biased toward higher level play? Which is probably true but I don't think that means it's "useless." I don't even see how those thoughts are connected. It's useless as a reliable indicator of balance changes. Many players, especially in the subreddit, obsessively track those frontpage Hotslogs numbers and get upset if Blizzard doesn't do enough to move them or makes changes that seem to contradict them.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:10
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Mercy just got changed to only rezzing 1 person at a time. Mercy Auriel skin incoming?
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Aug 24, 2017 22:26
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If your hotdog sandwich mmr isn't 3k or higher you need to stop posting and literally get out.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:43
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tcjimbo posted:If your hotdog sandwich mmr isn't 3k or higher you need to stop posting and literally get out. What if I only upload losses to hotdogs so my win rate is 0%? What then, buster?
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Aug 25, 2017 00:07
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Fuzz posted:Except people play Li Li all the time, so... He excels at bodyblocking and being an unkillable rear end in a top hat. More mobility hurts the first and %hp hurts the second, both of which are on the rise. Not to mention more silences and stuns to hard counter him. Plus, you can DVa if you want unkillable dude with many hp bars
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Aug 25, 2017 00:21
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Messing about in this game again. Who is the best healer in the game? I just want to help my team by giving them health!
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Aug 25, 2017 00:21
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Malf is probably one of the stronger ones that's also straight forward to play. Uther was also very strong but was just nerfed so I don't know if he's still good.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:35
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Knifegrab posted:Messing about in this game again. Who is the best healer in the game? I just want to help my team by giving them health!
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Aug 25, 2017 00:45
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With KT incoming, I decided to take a look at the other WC3 heroes. Alliance: Uther, Jaina, Muradin, and Horde: Thrall, Samuro, and ETC I guess. Rehgar already has Chain Heal though, so Vol'jin could go full DPS. Night Elves: Malf, Tyrande, Illidan. A lot of Maiev's kit is on Zeratul??? Undead: Ya boi KT, Arthas, Anub'arak. Varimathas would be a nifty Support. Neutrals: Sylvanas, Rexxar, Gazlowe, Chen, and RAGNAROS. WC3 had a canon Naga and Pit Lord, but who the gently caress is your Alchemist? Plus a handful more based on mass production units. There are 35 Warcraft heroes, counting Cho and Gall separately, and about 2/3 have a counterpart in WC3. Actually a bit higher than I would've guessed.
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Aug 25, 2017 01:08
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BrianBoitano posted:He excels at bodyblocking and being an unkillable rear end in a top hat. More mobility hurts the first and %hp hurts the second, both of which are on the rise. Not to mention more silences and stuns to hard counter him. Exactly my point. There are other heroes that do what he does, but better. He's in a no man's land of mediocrity, and his ults are pretty terrible, especially with all the new Heroes that can knock people out of position.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:01
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Knifegrab posted:Messing about in this game again. Who is the best healer in the game? I just want to help my team by giving them health! I wouldn't say there is a best healer in the game. It depends on the mode (QM, HL, or TL), the comp of who you are fighting, the comp of your own team, your rank, the map, etc. Stukov is my personal favorite though. Very high team-wide healing output, which makes him great on smaller maps where everyone tends to be stacked together.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:26
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I want mecchatorque and/or whatever the evil gnome from gnomeregan was named.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:36
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I told someone that he should probably stay in lane to soak instead of constantly rotating and letting the other team push and farm freely. His response: Why do mobas always have the most toxic people? Saltpowered fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 03:17
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Because you are reliant on 4 other people doing their job to beat the other team, and lots of insecure nerds play them. So if the game goes well and they win, it is because they carried the team. If it is a loss, it is because someone else didn't do they job (never themselves!). MOBAs are basically Dunning-Kruger, the Game.
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Aug 25, 2017 04:04
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I usually reply with "if you stop being mad you'll stop being bad" and then report them.
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Aug 25, 2017 05:49
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blastron posted:I usually reply with "if you stop being mad you'll stop being bad" and then report them. I just respond with "This my smurf. Check out my dope record on Tcjimbo#1157"
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Aug 25, 2017 05:57
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Midnightghoul posted:I have no idea, even the globe quest bug (which they didn't even fix) wasn't causing him to do that well. Hero balance has never been this game's strong suit though. It has seemed for a long time like there are two balance teams, one that does considered tweaks on legitimately op/up heroes and accurately addresses why they are that way, and then there is this team. Butcher and Uther nerfs are understandable but why Chen, Auriel, Kerrigan, Xul, Illidan, Tassadar when almost all of them are so so niche already. The patch notes basically give no better reason for some of these other than "um this hero actually works well in this situation, so gently caress that, say bye to them".
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Aug 25, 2017 06:13
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Yep. That's the rewards
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Lawlicaust posted:I told someone that he should probably stay in lane to soak instead of constantly rotating and letting the other team push and farm freely. His response: Why do they always have to wish ill upon your family? It just seems so over the top. I just go with the classic "Uninstall and kill yourself."
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Aug 25, 2017 10:28
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The secret pro strat is to turn off whispers from non-friends and never look back.
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Aug 25, 2017 10:30
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