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i like that posted:Men prefer attractive women too. And studies show they put more emphasis on appearance in a partner than women do. Pretty much everything they say can be applied to ugly women, which they may not be aware of since only "Stacy" catches ones eye. People aren't aware or care about a blah person's existence next to the babe. That's just how humans are. Women seem to accept more given we wear makeup and do cosmetic surgery to a far greater extent; these guys want the world to bend to them which isn't going to happen. Yes there exist men willing to use us for sex so it is easier to get a partner, but that isn't a guarantee for affection non-abusive companionship or even an orgasm. Sure. 90% of the crap these guys write about women shows that they're treating unattractive women as invisible, the exact same way they complain about women doing. Plus, they lay into women who sexually experiment when young instead of having longer relationships, as immoral - but then never allow for the possibility that the "moral" woman looking for a longer relationship would not want premarital sex.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:18
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hyphz posted:You can't compare "changing yourself to be more attractive" to taking out a splinter! It can be a pretty huge change, right down to core values, and there's no guarantee of it ever working and no interim cues on how you're going. lol welcome to life as an adult? Every single day millions of people change homes, change cities, change the country that they are living in, change relationship, change jobs and even entire career paths. And since it's almost autumn, tens of millions of young people (and their families) around the world are about to make enormous commitments in terms of time and money, to begin studying at universities, based on decisions made when they were stupid teenagers. And there's no guarantee of it ever working and no interim cues on how you're going. The universe doesn't owe you a living, just like the universe didn't owe Elliot Rodger a powerball win.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:37
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Shanghaied posted:lol welcome to life as an adult? Every single day millions of people change homes, change cities, change the country that they are living in, change relationship, change jobs and even entire career paths. And since it's almost autumn, tens of millions of young people (and their families) around the world are about to make enormous commitments in terms of time and money, to begin studying at universities, based on decisions made when they were stupid teenagers. And there's no guarantee of it ever working and no interim cues on how you're going. Sure. I didn't say it did. I said this is a reason why changing doesn't necessarily increase happiness and thus why people don't do it. But hey, everyone on every forum loves diving on any statement like that without reading the context so they can play at being the Full Metal Jacket guy, so no worries. It is probably something that drives incels into these silly enclaves though.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:49
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The price surprises me more than people actually getting one
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Aug 24, 2017 21:27
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i like that posted:Men prefer attractive women too. And studies show they put more emphasis on appearance in a partner than women do. Pretty much everything they say can be applied to ugly women, which they may not be aware of since only "Stacy" catches ones eye. People aren't aware or care about a blah person's existence next to the babe. That's just how humans are. Women seem to accept more given we wear makeup and do cosmetic surgery to a far greater extent; these guys want the world to bend to them which isn't going to happen. Yes there exist men willing to use us for sex so it is easier to get a partner, but that isn't a guarantee for affection non-abusive companionship or even an orgasm. Although serious posting in the "loser internet virgins laugh at even bigger loser internet virgins" thread is super retarded, it's pretty simple. The incel thinks that (and I'm not endorsing this position, just explaining) on average men have less sexual value than woman. Things like men send out hundreds of online dating messages while women seem to have their pick of the available men. Going by this line of thought, being an ugly women is less of an impediment to dating than being an ugly man. This belief fosters bitterness at being perceived as less than or unimportant, and they respond by egotistically puffing themselves up as "superior" to "small brained females" as a defense mechanism.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:34
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Please stop talking about the contradictory message on persuasion. Rape is rape.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:34
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Ghostlight posted:Please stop talking about the contradictory message on persuasion. Rape is rape. The contradictory message on persuasion is no excuse for rape. Nothing is. I don't know where you got that from. (Well, those Reddit boards probably) The contradictory message is just that, if you go to a car dealership and end up buying a new car you couldn't really afford, you'll be held responsible. But you didn't buy that car, the salesman would be held responsible for being bad at his job. So who actually is responsible? Isn't holding anyone responsible for persuasion in this way equivalent to treating the other party as an automaton? And don't say "it's joint" because no action exists that corresponds to that. I remember the "your princess is in another castle" article which said that women found it unpleasant and disturbing that men thought that whether or not they (the women) were sexually attracted was down to the man doing or not doing the right thing. Thinking about it that way I realised how creepy it sounds. Your car salesperson thinks that about you and that's pretty creepy. But they still get the sack if they don't close, even if they think it's creepy too.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:46
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Imagined posted:It's just weird to me because it seems so inhuman to seemingly WANT to be unhappy and actively resist any option which might lead to increased happiness just to wallow in it. Change, accept it, or die. Not "option d: don't change, don't accept it, and don't kill myself and instead just constantly impotently whine about it." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO1mTELoj6o
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Aug 24, 2017 21:59
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Aug 24, 2017 22:00
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hyphz posted:The contradictory message on persuasion is no excuse for rape. Nothing is. I don't know where you got that from. (Well, those Reddit boards probably) Complex, real life phenomenon doesn't correspond perfectly with simplistic theoretical models, therefore real world phenomenon must be somehow "wrong"?
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Aug 24, 2017 22:02
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You've presented two different scenarios with two different assignments of "responsibility" and decided there must be one objective answer that covers both but reject any answer that unifies both answers as incompatible because there is no shared action to demonstrate it. The true answer is that no one person in your given scenario is responsible for all possible outcomes of two individual decision making processes and sets of actions taking place within what you present as a single event but actually exists as a series of events from at least four different perspectives (buyer, seller, financier, dealership) stretched across a significant amount of time (day of purchase, week of review, months/years of payments). You've reduced the irreducible and declared that nobody can outrun a tortoise.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:30
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Cool. But now think about that from the POV of an incel - a reasonable one, not a warped one. Everyone is pointing out to them that they are responsible for being unattractive to women (or indeed men). Yet those women/men are not automata who assess the other person's actions and activate sex if they achieve a minimum score. They are free willed humans. But given that, how can you blame the incel for someone else's free will? Now, it's true that you can always influence another person negatively and warped incels probably do that, but reasonable ones are left feeling they are solely blamed for something they don't have control over, and then blamed again if they believe they do have control! That's a good start on getting warped. It's the same question as "if car customers are free willed rather than scoring automata, how can the car salesman be blamed if they don't buy?" That's why I call it a contradictory attitude. You get blamed as if you have control over the other person, but get attacked if you actually believe that.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:44
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Attraction is not a single variable problem, but physical appearance is one of the variables you can have at least some control over, and it's usually a fairly important one such that not working on it is going to torpedo your odds. I'm not even sure what your point is.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:57
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Your scenario only makes sense if this hypothetical "reasonable" incel is doing all they can to maximize their chances in good faith. Proper dressing, grooming, not being desperate, being self confident, not saying creepy or cringey things. They get blamed because fat ugly guys like me have gotten laid and long term relationships by doing (or not) those things, and so we assume the incel is loving one of the basics up somehow. Being ugly is not in your control, maybe, but smelling bad and acting like a desperate weirdo is. And these guys are like "But I wasn't born knowing how to be like that!" No poo poo? Literally NOBODY is. EVERYBODY has had to learn how to be a person. I don't know why incels think they should get a pass. Imagined fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 22:59
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Personality disorders involve very rigid and maladaptive perceptions of oneself and other people. Everything gets set into stone somewhere during adolescence or early childhood and from then on your behavior and mindset in different situations is pretty predictable and always self-sabotaging, never learning from mistakes and growing personally. It's actually good for incels to never have been approached by women because for a person like that it's really unsettling and illogical that as soon as you and your classmates hit puberty the very same girls who shunned you before are now hitting on you big time. A damaged person can only resolve this mental conflict by rationalizing that the girls are just cruelly duping him into thinking they actually liked him so that they can embarrass him in front of everyone. Then the damaged person either ignores the hints or acts like a total rear end in a top hat, and either way will soon find out that he just screwed up big time and will grow up to be an even more bitter sadsack than if no one ever actually had shown any interest. iloin siitin fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 23:10
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Imagined posted:Your scenario only makes sense if this hypothetical "reasonable" incel is doing all they can to maximize their chances in good faith. Proper dressing, grooming, not being desperate, being self confident, not saying creepy or cringey things. They get blamed because fat ugly guys like me have gotten laid and long term relationships by doing (or not) those things, and so we assume the incel is loving one of the basics up somehow. Being ugly is not in your control, maybe, but smelling bad and acting like a desperate weirdo is. Right. So you assume you succeeded because you scored high, and that they are scoring lower. But, as we saw in the "princess" article this whole framework is objectifying the women involved. If you treat them as free willed humans, then the only answer is that the women didn't want to. This doesn't mean that they are to "blame" (because blame implies doing something wrong and they haven't) but it does mean that, shock horror, her behaviour was governed by her choices and not his. You cannot reason deeper than that, since free will does not yield to prediction nor to probability.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:13
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hyphz posted:Right. So you assume you succeeded because you scored high, and that they are scoring lower. But, as we saw in the "princess" article this whole framework is objectifying the women involved. If you treat them as free willed humans, then the only answer is that the women didn't want to. This doesn't mean that they are to "blame" (because blame implies doing something wrong and they haven't) but it does mean that, shock horror, her behaviour was governed by her choices and not his. You cannot reason deeper than that, since free will does not yield to prediction nor to probability. "Well, do the numbers pencil out?" "Sorry boss, looks like he's right" "drat it! Send this down to R&D now! loving NOW!"
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Aug 24, 2017 23:15
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Free will doesn't mean external factors don't influence decision making. Like seriously are you looking for excuses for these guys not to regularly bathe or something?
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Aug 24, 2017 23:16
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The car dealer metaphor doesn't work because cars on most dealers' lots are detailed up real nice with colourful stickers in the windshield telling you about their best features, and most dealers know how to work with what they've got and not try to sell a Camry to a guy shopping for Ferraris. If your dealership is in a dark unsignposted garage and the one car you sell is a Pinto covered in bird poo poo with an exhaust note that calls you a oval office, your lack of sales is absolutely on you.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:26
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Honestly, I'm just kind of loving around. on an internet comedy forum
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Aug 24, 2017 23:26
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chumbler posted:Free will doesn't mean external factors don't influence decision making. Like seriously are you looking for excuses for these guys not to regularly bathe or something? No, and I think another factor in warping is getting this kind of trivialised advice. Yes, you can make sure you don't interest the girl by running around covered in mud and stinking. Yes, you can make sure you don't get the job by taking a poo poo on the interviewer's desk. Sure. But a) this kind of factor is obvious and relatively trivial, and b) not being interested or not hiring you is a much less sensitive decision because it involves no commitment or investment by them. But you can't declare the entire decision predictable unless you can tunnel right down to what gets a "yes" response as well as a "no". And you can't do that. Free will doesn't mean external factors don't influence decision-making, but it does mean they don't "influence" it predictably, nor probabilistically.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:34
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Eh this is a stupid derail, but the free will vs. determinism debate goes back millennia. But in general, just because you believe free will exists doesn't mean you have to believe that people act entirely randomly and arbitrarily, and that you would have no control what-so-ever. Human actions are to a large degree predictable, otherwise any type of social action would have been impossible. I take the bus because I can predict with a large degree of certainty that the bus driver will refrain from intentionally crashing the bus, even though they have free will and may very well choose do so. I don't shoot every person who gets within 100m of me because I can predict with a large degree of certainty that they will not want to harm me, even though they have free will and may very well choose to do so. I can predict with a large degree of certainty that if the first thing I do at a job interview is to take my dick out and masturbate, I will not get the job, even though the interviewer has free will and may very well choose to hire me despite it all. You see my point? You may argue otherwise, but you yourself assume a huge amount of predictability in human actions, just by the fact that you are (presumably) able to function in society. Edit for content: quote:My school bar is pure suicide fuel The harlots! Shanghaied fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 23:37
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Shanghaied posted:Eh this is a stupid derail, but the free will vs. determinism debate goes back millennia. But in general, just because you believe free will exists doesn't mean you have to believe that people act entirely randomly and arbitrarily, and that you would have no control what-so-ever. Human actions are to a large degree predictable, otherwise any type of social action would have been impossible. I take the bus because I can predict with a large degree of certainty that the bus driver will refrain from intentionally crashing the bus, even though they have free will and may very well choose do so. I don't shoot every person who gets within 100m of me because I can predict with a large degree of certainty that they will not want to harm me, even though they have free will and may very well choose to do so. I can predict with a large degree of certainty that if the first thing I do at a job interview is to take my dick out and masturbate, I will not get the job, even though the interviewer has free will and may very well choose to hire me despite it all. You see my point? You may argue otherwise, but you yourself assume a huge amount of predictability in human actions, just by the fact that you are (presumably) able to function in society. "This is a stupid derail" kind of gets to the meat of it, though. Any discussion of why the contradictory perception is wrong ends up going down the philosophical rabbit-hole and losing all focus. But still, if the car salesman hasn't sold a car for the last year (and assuming a respectable dealership), the boss doesn't say "well, hey, we'll keep you on because you didn't punch any customers in the face." He also doesn't say "well, hey, we'll keep you on because you made a lot of sales appointments, even though none of them succeeded." Families don't say to their unmarried sons (or daughters) "well, hey, we're not worried about lineage because you went on a lot of dates." Heck, both of those are likely to be seen as making it worse because they imply a large number of failures. (And then they wonder why warped incels wind up never wanting to try...) And if you try to argue that they should, that it's unreasonable, well, they take it down the rabbit hole then give up and keep their old opinion. The free will vs. determinism debate goes back millennia, true, so shouldn't that car salesman's boss be saying "we kind of have to keep you on by default because knowing if you did anything wrong would require solving a debate that's been unresolvable for millennia?"
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Aug 24, 2017 23:48
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The car salesman is supposed to evaluate why he's failing, not blame the customers. But seriously, what are you even trying to argue?
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Aug 24, 2017 23:51
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quote:Why do women think sitting on their rear end at a desk answering phones (which is fun) is WORK? quote:Because they are useless and arent good at anything else but that. quote:I loving hate answering phones, which is why I am largely unemployable. Just let me deal with my work on the computer in peace, dammit. quote:for every hard working man there is a gold digger woman leeching of some other man
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Aug 25, 2017 00:06
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hyphz posted:Cool. But now think about that from the POV of an incel - a reasonable one, not a warped one. Everyone is pointing out to them that they are responsible for being unattractive to women (or indeed men).
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Aug 25, 2017 00:07
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So it's not work but it's also too hard for an incel to do. 9_9
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Aug 25, 2017 00:08
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Let's play into the incel's self delusion and say that they are as unattractive as they say they are. It is not this unattractiveness that is stopping them from having sex or getting a girlfriend. True, at worst, it might be hindering them, and making it harder, but it is not insurmountable. What is STOPPING them from having sex and getting a girlfriend is that they never leave the house, and when they do they are so terrified of anysocial interaction, and treat every instance of life as a personal slight against them perpetrated by Chad and Stacy so thatthey get angry/defensive/whatever so much that it drives people away. Thus confirming their world view, and the snake continues to eat it's own tail. If they smiled a little more. Lightened up about life a little more. Didn't take the fact that their coffee at Starbucks was 2 seconds late and the harried barista didn't smile atthem as much as they'd like as a personal insult of the gravest scale. Then maybe they'd make a friend, maybe they'd find someone as lonely/shy/with low enough standards to have sex or go out with. Fair enough they wouldn't e balls deep in supermodels on the first day they started to do this, but they would achieve their stated goals of love and/or sex with a *female*. But they don't do that. Largely because, as stated, they aren't immediately rewarded with kinky supermodel sex at their first half-arsed try, and they are too lazy to actually try multiple times. Because they have to find a woman who likes them, as opposed to a thing that will give them the love/sex they feel they deserve or have earned, and that would be crazy a female with opinions. My second point about incels is that they fetishize both the act of sex, and the experience of having a girlfriend so so much. They blame the fact that they have neither for all teh problems in their life. And believe that once their dicks are wet, or their hands are held then everything will be OK. But as we all know, sex, whilst fun, is not the pinnacle of one's lifetime achievement. And being in a relationship, even the "teen love" that they idolize so much from the pop culture they consume, is enormously rewarding but also hard work and not all beer and skittles. But they refuse to believe this. Because they won't listen to anything a Normie, or a Chad has to say, and Stacy is a femoid so she is incapable of feelings or opinions so she doesn't matter. Instead they stay in their toxic bucket and like crabs never escape.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:15
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quote:I've fallen in love with a woman who doesn't live in this universe and it's poo poo quote:drat lol you are reaching never seen before level of cope quote:How is this cope? quote:You're making the claim, you provide the proof... quote:Are you stupid? quote:I'm not making a scenario you loving spastic, this isn't a fantasy. I'm just in love. That's not coping. It's the opposite of cope. quote:Are you masturbating over all the upvotes the normies gave you? How does it feel to put down your fellow man to gain esteem in the eyes of the people who ruined your life?
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Aug 25, 2017 00:19
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This is undiscovered territory. I seriously never would have expected them to call video game crushes also cope.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:23
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chumbler posted:The car salesman is supposed to evaluate why he's failing, not blame the customers. But seriously, what are you even trying to argue? Again, the word "blame" is used here to confuse by conflation. He should not _blame_ the customers, because they have done no wrong by not buying a car. But at the same time, unless he is assuming that the customers are automatons, he has no way to assume that he had any control over what happened. He can't evaluate why he's failing because he can't assume the customers' actions were predictable given his. All he - or his boss or anyone else - can say is "I cannot engage in further thought about this situation without resolving the paradox of free will vs. determinism and since that cannot be resolved, evaluation ends here. That of which we cannot speak, we must pass over in silence." Mic drop. What am I trying to argue? I'm not really trying to argue, I'm trying to explain what the contradictory attitude to persuasion I referred to earlier is, because another poster apparently assumed it was something to do with rape. The contradictory attitude is that society blames people for failing to persuade based on results. If there is free will, there is no grounds for such blame because the persuader's actions do not determine the results. If there is no free will, then the persuader also had no free will, thus no choice and no responsibility.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:29
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chumbler posted:This is undiscovered territory. I seriously never would have expected them to call video game crushes also cope. Apparently, to the purists, anything other than literally lying down and rot is "cope". Any day now, there will be a Great Incel Schism, between the LDARers and the Copers quote:Were the Nazis in Hitler's Germany incel? quote:Hitler was about 175cm, which was average for his time. If you look at pixtures of him from the 20s, you can see he was sort of handsome. quote:Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini all between 5 4 and 5 8, which was normal at the time. quote:BRB, volunteering for Lebensborn program in order to preg some women and spread my genes. quote:If Hitler would have won the war we may have all been genetically engineered to be Chads. He wanted to create an Aryan race A literal army of blonde hair blue eyed Chads. quote:Hitlers idea actually sounds pretty good now. None of us would be here and we d all be 6 foot 4 white dudes slaying and femoids would be in heaven Shanghaied fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 00:29
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Shanghaied posted:Were the Nazis in Hitler's Germany incel? The virgin norman :: The Chad Anglo-saxon
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Aug 25, 2017 00:35
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OxMan posted:The virgin norman :: The Chad Anglo-saxon 
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Aug 25, 2017 00:36
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Whitening the dicks don't get them suckerfucked any faster my guy, there's only the ebb and flow of the Feminine Gestalt holding back the floodgates that lie between your impugned dilz and a swarm of ladyfolks what want to circumscribe the laws of Hammurabi on your peckerlands.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:38
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PetraCore posted:So it's not work but it's also too hard for an incel to do. 9_9 think that first guy's operating on a level of 'women are always on the phone gossiping therefore call centers don't even count as working' which is impressive in showing he knows even less about jobs involving phones than he knows about women
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Aug 25, 2017 00:38
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Aug 25, 2017 00:49
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This is a good argument for more OC in this thread.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:49
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Chad is a good and decent person, please don't associate him with Trump.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:52
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chumbler posted:Chad is a good and decent person, please don't associate him with Trump. I'm sorry, I know shouldn't have. This man is Pietro Boselli, PhD in Mathematics from University College London and professional model.  And he apparently broke r/incels: quote:Let me tell you how it works. Be 8+ then you are one step further of everyone else. Be stupid but enjoy doing maths as hobby apply for a phd, tell your profs about it at your current uni, because you are handsome all your female old profs will write reference letters for you. Then you will be interviewed for the phd program and because of your looks they will choose you, apply to any job and they will choose you. Your look can take you anywhere. This is how corruption is created in society. quote:Comparing myself to this man, good looking, while i'm ugly, successful, while i'm setting on the chair in front of my computer 24/7 to the point that my bones are getting weaker because of the lack of the move, is really hurtful. I'm not even a human compared to him. quote:This man is a literal god compared to me quote:This prick is from university college London, PhD in mathematics, also a top tier model in Europe. quote:When Chad wins, Chad wins even more. quote:What the gently caress. You know this loving Chad knows he's attractive, so he's like "Imma be a professer for extra stacy points hur hur". gently caress him. quote:Nothing but respect for this guy. He is both physically and intellectually superior to me. He deserves all the recognition he's getting. quote:it says he is a model since he was 6. he was getting more poon as a child than most men get in their whole lives quote:PhD Chad? quote:This guy won the genetic lottery quote:Wtf... His body is unreal. I've only seen such bodies on Renaissance sculptures...
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Aug 25, 2017 01:04
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