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Did Maduros or Flores ever comment publicly about their step/sons trying to smuggle hundreds of kilos of coke into the US?
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Aug 24, 2017 09:15
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BeigeJacket posted:Did Maduros or Flores ever comment publicly about their step/sons trying to smuggle hundreds of kilos of coke into the US? Not that I'm aware of. Even when it was happening in Venezuela it wasn't reported as "Maduro's nephews got caught with a plane full of coke" it was "plane full of coke caught"
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Aug 24, 2017 10:07
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Wow, they also still haven't been sentenced even after being convicted a year and a half ago (http://www.laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=10717&ArticleId=2433549 ) Diosdado commented publicly at the time and called it a "kidnapping" or something similar. Maduro too ( https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/6189-drugs-trial-exposes-high-echelon-corruption-in-venezuela , wow that's a detailed article). Saladman fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 10:32
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Labradoodle posted:They must be really stupid for that to be true. I've heard rumors for years about the Flores family giving out positions of power like candy to anyone in their family. Imagine being so inept that even a family that's famous for its nepotism won't take the chance of giving you a real job where you can embezzle money with the rest of them. From my understanding they didn't even need a position, they lived lavishly, apparently owning Ferraris and asking an undercover DEA agent for leopard cubs. It's likely they spent all their money on luxuries and they were looking for a quick buck, or maybe their original claim that the money was to finance Cilia Flores' reelection campaign is actually true. Also, one of them is a highschool dropout, which would likely make it difficult to find him a position...That is not the presidency, of course. BeigeJacket posted:Did Maduros or Flores ever comment publicly about their step/sons trying to smuggle hundreds of kilos of coke into the US? Cilia Flores did mention that her nephews were "kidnapped" by the US. They've never commented on the drug trafficking allegations, and if they have it's been to deny it all. Saladman posted:Wow, they also still haven't been sentenced even after being convicted a year and a half ago (http://www.laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=10717&ArticleId=2433549 ) Their sentencing is due for September 11th. I doubt they'll be granted any further extensions. They're just looking for ways to avoid a life sentence. fnox fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 10:49
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fnox posted:. Also, one of them is a highschool dropout, which would likely make it difficult to find him a position...That is not the presidency, of course. Is there a constitutional requirement for some sort of specific level of education to be President? The fact that Maduro drove a bus is the least important fact related to the current political situation in Venezuela. The "bus driver" criticism comes across as blatantly classist and doesn't add anything to discourse. You could be an honest and hardworking person and be a bus driver. Of the long line of corrupt people in the upper realms of Venezuelan politics, bus driver does not seem to be an important signifier of a tendency to be inept/careless/corrupt, or if it is, it is just as much of one as lawyer. It's cheap and makes anyone saying it look silly, at best. How popular is this complaint, as a serious point, in Venezuela?
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Aug 24, 2017 12:50
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Given what's been going down in my own country since late January I cannot in good faith argue against the idea that candidates for executive power should have to demonstrate some baseline competence before being allowed to wield it.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:17
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Is there a constitutional requirement for some sort of specific level of education to be President? No. The requirements to be elected president are found in article 227 of the constitution: quote:Article 227: In order to be elected President of the Republic, one must be Venezuelan by birth, not hold another nationality, be over thirty years old, be a layperson and not be [this bit is tricky -- I think it translates to "serving a criminal sentence"], and meet the other requirements established in the constitution. The "other requirements established in the constitution" are sparse and don't refer to education. For example, one of these other requirements is in article 230, which says that you can only be re-elected to the presidency once. I think that the bus driver criticism comes from the fact that Maduro is a tyrannical dictator who has overseen the most catastrophic social and economic collapse the country has seen since the civil war. It makes sense to me that, while experiencing the destruction of a country in real time, people might go through a list of characteristics their leadership has and point out incongruencies. I think you see the same thing with Trump, for example, when people point out that he's a reality TV personality, a horrendous businessman, a WWE hall of famer, etc. None of those things have much to do with being president, but once you take in the disaster that is Trump and start looking for answers, then those little tidbits kind of start to make sense. Having said that, I think you're totally right in saying that being a bus driver is neither here nor there (some of the worst people around come from prestigious backgrounds and are highly educated), but again I think that if you're trying to make sense out of chaos, you pick out little details like past employment. I'm sure that if Venezuela were a prosperous country, we'd brag about our president having once been a humble bus driver. As far as how common a complaint it is, I think it comes up relatively often in conversation, but the media doesn't really go after that point. Like you said, there's plenty enough to talk about without bringing up the bus driver thing. The rumour that he's a secret Colombian gets more air time than the bus driver fact, and there have even been parliamentary commissions set up to investigate the allegations.
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Aug 24, 2017 13:24
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Is there a constitutional requirement for some sort of specific level of education to be President? No, not for the presidency, but there are educational requirements for many positions in Venezuela, they're particularly stringent for TSJ magistrates which is something that the PSUV has completely ignored. This has nothing to do with classism, it has to do with merit and competence, Venezuela has had free education for more than a century, I studied at a public university, as so did my father, and my grandfather before me, we used to value free higher education so much that public universities were considered to be vastly superior to private institutions. If you want proof that education level has nothing to do with economic background in Venezuela, just look at anybody else in the government and you'll see they're ALL more qualified than he is. Even Maduro's wife is a lawyer. Public schools have deteriorated heavily under Chavez, but the reason Maduro didn't finish his education was because his school was poo poo or because he had to work to support himself (I had a former coworker who graduated from the very same liceo that Maduro studied in, who is a UCV graduate, and comes from a very humble background), Maduro abandoned school to join the Liga Socialista, the same group that Jorge Antonio Rodriguez belonged to, which was an urban guerrilla. Maduro didn't finish his compulsory education because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't finish it. I think it is relevant to mention how Maduro had very little regard for his own education because it extrapolates to how he sees education in general, considering just how loving disastrous he has been for every single facet of the Venezuelan educational system. It's because of him that kids as young as 7 have been skipping class because they don't have food to eat. It's because of him that the universities have gone on strike. It's because of him that I couldn't finish my degree. fnox fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 13:52
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fnox posted:No, not for the presidency, but there are educational requirements for many positions in Venezuela, they're particularly stringent for TSJ magistrates which is something that the PSUV has completely ignored. This has nothing to do with classism, it has to do with merit and competence, Venezuela has had free education for more than a century, I studied at a public university, as so did my father, and my grandfather before me, we used to value free higher education so much that public universities were considered to be vastly superior to private institutions. If you want proof that education level has nothing to do with economic background in Venezuela, just look at anybody else in the government and you'll see they're ALL more qualified than he is. Even Maduro's wife is a lawyer. What I am trying to note is that the fact that he is a bus driver doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the things that you are saying, and it is indeed still coming across as a classit insult. To say that "education level has nothing to do with economic background in Venezuela" is also ridiculous, you very well know that we are not talking about wonderful welfare states in Latin America, and if you get dealt a bad hand at birth it can be very difficult to break out of poverty (this is not to say that it is impossible). There's a lot of people (not just in Venezuela) who would be thrilled with being bus drivers and who would do that job honestly and decently, because you could be doing a lot worse. The fact that he is a drop out, that he abandoned what was a good educational opportunity, that he is incompetent in government, that he has little regard for formal education and that he doesn't care that the universities have gone to poo poo doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he was a bus driver for a while. Look back at what you write, and please tell me if you think that being a bus driver is the most relevant driver in Maduro's opinions and motives, as well as an integral part of his formation, in order to run the country into the ground. Maduro dropped out of school because he was lazy, he is presiding over the worst economic disaster in Venezuelan history because he is incompetent and his party is run by corrupt cronies and thugs. The fact that he drove a bus is irrelevant. He hasn't done any of this because he drove a bus, and if he had been a shop manager or a hairdresser or a construction worker it wouldn't have made him any less of a bad person. The fact that he abandoned what was an otherwise perfectly fine liceo because he wanted, not because he needed to, is far more damning than the fact that he drove a bus. The fact that he joined a glorified urban guerrilla likewise, is much much worse than driving a bus. While being a bus driver, he participated as a driver's representative, is this bad? no. While being a bus driver he also joined MBR-200 and protested for the release of Chavez, who was rightfully jailed for being a coupist, is this bad? yes. Being a bus driver doesn't really show us anything about Maduro, other than that he is probably a very good driver. All of the other bad things he has done do. Mention how he threw away a good educational opportunity for no reason, mention how he stood up for someone who had no regard for the constitutional order, mention how he has actively participated at a high level in the destruction of Venezuelan politics and economics. One may rightfully say all these things as loud as one wants, regardless that he happened to be driving a bus for a few years.
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Aug 24, 2017 15:56
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I did not once in that post mention that he is a bus driver. I said he didn't finish highschool and neither did his nephew. The word "bus" isn't even in that post. I am explicitly criticizing how he dropped out of compulsory education, despite how basically every other potential candidate for the presidency at that time, opposition or officialist didn't, Chavez himself finished compulsory education. How is that a hard standard to meet? fnox fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 15:59
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:The fact that he is a drop out, that he abandoned what was a good educational opportunity, that he is incompetent in government, that he has little regard for formal education and that he doesn't care that the universities have gone to poo poo doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he was a bus driver for a while. Those are true and good points, and far better angles of criticism. But to a lot of people saying "he was a bus driver" is their way of summing that up in a bite sized chunk for easy sharing. But the simplification for the masses is toothless and counterproductive if people aren't associating it with shorthand for all of those core issues. M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 16:04
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fnox posted:I did not once in that post mention that he is a bus driver. I said he didn't finish highschool and neither did his nephew.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:24
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Because you had done it in the posts previous to those. I note and share your explicit criticisms of his disregard for education and the other points you make. I like M Gargantua's post above, the summary is lost if people don't note the corresponding association, he/she noted it much more succinctly than I. I had to go back a couple of months to find any mention of him being a bus driver. That comment only seems classist when taken out of context, and if you don't understand how he came to have a position of power. The problem about Maduro is not that he's a bus driver, the problem is that, that might have been the only position he has held he was qualified for. Every single position in public office he has held has been given to him due to his loyalty to Chavez, not due to his aptitude, not due to his charisma, not due to his duty to the country, and not because of a good track record during his time as a deputy, or as chancellor. It doesn't matter what the hell it is he did before becoming a politician if the only reason he made it anywhere was due to favouritism. That's not fair to anybody, that's not a good standard to have, it's no better than monarchy. I believe everybody should be given the opportunity to become somebody, and this guy took that from hundreds of others through corrupt schemes. fnox fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 16:46
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Thanks to everyone in this thread for shedding light on these events. As a naive foreigner can not relate to what is going on, but it's an incredible story nonetheless. I'm astonished by the business-as-usual attitude of the government, with the slope of the situation seems so dire. From what little I can find, GDP is shrinking while inflation is becoming a vertical line (and both still accelerating?). Then when you look up the official exchange rate, it's still 10 : 1 USD and party officials read canned statements about private 'economic war'. Like the bus had driven off the cliff years ago, but the people inside are arguing and pointing fingers. I want to ask your opinion, how is any claim to normalcy is even attempted, much less accepted by the citizens, on any political side? It seems like months or weeks before printing 10 trillion dollar notes and an end to any commerce at all. Is the the ruling class just resigned to letting all non-oil economic activity end, and try to fight the starving masses to exhaustion? The protests so far have even seemed remarkably civilized given the situation. How long before plain revolt? Edit: Or do you think the storm will be weathered, things start to get better, and back to status quo? fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 18:45
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Saladman posted:
Considering that the Brazilian industry people seem to do that too it seems to be like a perk of being rich in South America.
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Aug 24, 2017 18:47
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Glad to see some hard evidence for "Maduro and his gang of thieves have been looting the country", we all knew it was 100% true because we're not brain dead, but this can shut up concern troll style critics. I went past the arepas food truck yesterday and generally just felt terrible about the situation Venezuela finds itself in. Right now, I have zero hope for the situation. I think things are going to get worse, and worse, and worse.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:46
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Maduro is partnering with Russia and China to work out some minor kinks in the PDVSA.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:00
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Bates posted:Maduro is partnering with Russia and China to work out some minor kinks in the PDVSA. Could be stealing more? Need to consult the masters of corrupt government?
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Aug 25, 2017 02:35
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Bates posted:Maduro is partnering with Russia and China to work out some minor kinks in the PDVSA. Interesting article, but this particular quote is just complete bullshit: quote:Contacts tell me that the few retail establishments in Caracas that managed to remain open often wouldn’t decide on the actual price of goods and services until you reached the counter. That makes it sound like Caracas is a ghost town and he must've pulled those contacts out of his rear end. I've yet to run into a single situation where I go buy something at a store and they decide on the price at the counter. I'm actually surprised that people still bother printing price tags, but that doesn't make his assertion any less bullshit. Plus, the whole city is filled with stores of every kind. Sure, a lot of them display less stuff than they used to but saying "the few retail establishments in Caracas that managed to remain open" just tells me his contacts don't know what they're talking about. I'm not saying that everything is peachy here, but it pisses me off when people exaggerate for the sake of it.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:50
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fnox posted:I had to go back a couple of months to find any mention of him being a bus driver. That comment only seems classist when taken out of context, and if you don't understand how he came to have a position of power. The problem about Maduro is not that he's a bus driver, the problem is that, that might have been the only position he has held he was qualified for. Every single position in public office he has held has been given to him due to his loyalty to Chavez, not due to his aptitude, not due to his charisma, not due to his duty to the country, and not because of a good track record during his time as a deputy, or as chancellor. No sorry I recognise I overreacted a bit to your comments. I'm just really fed up with the bus driver comments and think they detract and give free ammo to defenders of the regime. I think we're entirely on the same page.
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Aug 25, 2017 11:48
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https://twitter.com/VP/status/901045541760622592 Quite literally the strongest message of condemnation of the Venezuelan government to ever come from the White House. You would never hear anything stronger than "we're concerned" from either the Bush or Obama administrations. Of course I'm not singing praises for the Trump administration, much less for Mike Pence, but it's about time somebody recognised that the Venezuelan crisis affects the entire region.
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Aug 25, 2017 13:09
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Arepas are delicious
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Aug 25, 2017 14:45
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Maduro shuffled two positions around yesterday: he took Eulogio Del Pino (president of PDVSA) and made him Minister of Oil, and he took Nelson Martinez (Minister of Oil) and made him president of PDVSA. CNBC has an article from earlier this year saying that Martinez is "close to Maduro" and that he's been wanting to head PDVSA for a while now, so it looks like he got his wish!fritzgryphon posted:I want to ask your opinion, how is any claim to normalcy is even attempted, much less accepted by the citizens, on any political side? It seems like months or weeks before printing 10 trillion dollar notes and an end to any commerce at all. Is the the ruling class just resigned to letting all non-oil economic activity end, and try to fight the starving masses to exhaustion? I think the boiling frog theory has a lot to do with this. Venezuela didn't become the way it is today overnight. It became the way it is today over years and years of gradual deterioration, with a couple of big jolts interspersed here and there. For the most part, though, we're looking at a timeline of decades for the collapse. I notice that the most when I talk to my relatives in Venezuela. They tell horrendous stories (of friends being robbed/killed, of not being able to find food/medicine) as if it were just another part of their daily life because, well, it is. People can get used to pretty much anything, and before you know if you're living in Venezuela. As for "when will things get back to the status quo?": this chaos and misery is the status quo. Any chance of the situation improving involves the dictatorship falling as the first step. fnox posted:Quite literally the strongest message of condemnation of the Venezuelan government to ever come from the White House. You would never hear anything stronger than "we're concerned" from either the Bush or Obama administrations. Of course I'm not singing praises for the Trump administration, much less for Mike Pence, but it's about time somebody recognised that the Venezuelan crisis affects the entire region. There are few things that disturb me more than knowing that Trump/Pence/the Republicans and I are on the same page about something. I think they saw the chance to pick up loyal voters for the next few decades and went for it. Bob le Moche posted:Arepas are delicious Hear, hear  Any place that sells arepas will probably sell tequeños as well. Those are #2 on my "Must Try Venezuela Food" list.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:18
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No matter what you think about Maduro's government, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to acknowledge that the reason right-wing voices like the Trump admin and the Mises Institute appear to care about the situation in Venezuela so much is because there are many business interests that would stand to benefit from the US doing their old regime-change trick on Venezuela. The Venezuelan government can be corrupt, illegitimate, and undemocratic; and also at the same time be targeted for a coup by those who want to ensure whatever government comes after this one will be working for them and lets them privatize the oil & implement austerity. Both of these things can be true at the same time.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:58
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Cool thanks for offering your hot take Bob peace onelove
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Aug 25, 2017 16:21
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My favorite Bob LM moment from the thread was when he asked a bunch of Venezuelans (a people without enough food to eat and with a lovely, collapsed currency) to crowdfund his holiday. EDIT: Then got all  when, shockingly, he wasn't showered with several billion Bolivars.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:39
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https://twitter.com/alivitali/status/901106841496805377
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Aug 25, 2017 16:41
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I like that they're not sugarcoating it. The Venezuelan government has been selling off state assets and the oil industry piecemeal to foreign powers in order to support itself, and that's going to absolutely destroy any future attempts at rebuilding the economy.
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Aug 25, 2017 17:05
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So if I'm reading that right the sanctions are against loaning money to the Venezuelan government or the PDVSA?
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Aug 25, 2017 17:22
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Feinne posted:So if I'm reading that right the sanctions are against loaning money to the Venezuelan government or the PDVSA? Both. This is explicitly to forbid what Goldman Sachs did not too long ago, where they bought PDVSA bonds at 31 cents to the dollar. Maduro has demonstrated he's willing to sell off any Venezuelan assets at any price in order to get just a couple more months in power. fnox fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 17:31
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We're hosed
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Aug 25, 2017 17:54
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I have a bit of an odd question for anyone here who does live/has lived in Venezuela. Bread and bakeries come up in conversation pretty often in relation to governmental corruption and inefficiency. Is there much, what I'll call, "packaged bread" (think pan Bimbo) in Venezuela? I see Grupo Bimbo has a facility in Miranda. How has their Venezuelan buisiness fared recently?
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Aug 25, 2017 18:02
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David Smilde wrote a quick piece with some thoughts on the sanctions. It's definitely worth a read. I got this video on WhatsApp earlier today. It shows civilians getting outfitted to participate in the military drills that are taking place this weekend. You can tell that the elderly people getting rifles shoved in their faces by abrasive soldiers are really happy to have volunteered completely out of their own free will and not at all pressured in any way to participate in this thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsj0hiZYWQ8
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Aug 25, 2017 18:31
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madeintaipei posted:I have a bit of an odd question for anyone here who does live/has lived in Venezuela. Bread and bakeries come up in conversation pretty often in relation to governmental corruption and inefficiency. Is there much, what I'll call, "packaged bread" (think pan Bimbo) in Venezuela? I see Grupo Bimbo has a facility in Miranda. How has their Venezuelan buisiness fared recently? I mean there used to be, yeah
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Aug 25, 2017 18:43
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fnox posted:Both. This is explicitly to forbid what Goldman Sachs did not too long ago, where they bought PDVSA bonds at 31 cents to the dollar. Maduro has demonstrated he's willing to sell off any Venezuelan assets at any price in order to get just a couple more months in power. It also means that once Maduro leaves, it is going to be extremely difficult for the next government to work its way out of the situation since there is a precedent on the side of the actors that have brought Venezuela/PDVSA debt. This includes if Maduro starts (or countinues) to sell PDVSA assets directly. The reason why Goldman Sachs bought the debt in the first place, is that they know that there are enough powerful actors active in Venezuela that a future government is going to be "between a rock and hard place." The question is if enough assets will be left to service debt payments (the days of fuel subsidies are probably numbered). Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 18:51
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Chuck Boone posted:David Smilde wrote a quick piece with some thoughts on the sanctions. It's definitely worth a read. I'm the sudden midget passing through
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Aug 25, 2017 19:00
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madeintaipei posted:I have a bit of an odd question for anyone here who does live/has lived in Venezuela. Bread and bakeries come up in conversation pretty often in relation to governmental corruption and inefficiency. Is there much, what I'll call, "packaged bread" (think pan Bimbo) in Venezuela? I see Grupo Bimbo has a facility in Miranda. How has their Venezuelan buisiness fared recently? There was a recent-ish period in Maracaibo where there was no "packaged bread" of any brand. I've only seen it again at one supermarket, but not at any nearby bakeries.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:24
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Furia posted:We're hosed I think you passed hosed 4 turnoffs back.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:44
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Its really darkly hilarious that venezuela is more and more reliant on the dollar and is bound in deals with russia and china for all the nationalism and such the PSUV spout. America is the financial lifeline of venezuela and the PSUV has made the USA their 'imperialist' overlords by looting and neglecting the country's businesses and infastructure so much that selling to a US refinery is their main income stream.. Now the US controls indirectly the livelihood of all venezuela, and if they starve even more.
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Aug 25, 2017 20:37
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Pharohman777 posted:Its really darkly hilarious that venezuela is more and more reliant on the dollar and is bound in deals with russia and china for all the nationalism and such the PSUV spout. Granted, it is arguably it is more of a three part ownership of China-Russia-US hedge funds at this point. The US by sanctioning Venezuela (if anything) also ironically will give Russia and China a deeper edge and will almost certainly allow them to pick up Venezuelan infrastructure even cheaper. Basically, we are in the 19th century again.
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Aug 25, 2017 21:05
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