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Lobok posted:Especially to counteract any misgivings about any new cast or director and make sure fans keep showing up. "Ehh, I'm not completely sold on this new Spider-Man but.... VENOM gently caress YEAH". Presumably they knew they wanted to keep making Spider-Man movies in perpetuity so why the rush to use this one villain? From what I gather Raimi had largely free reign on the first two, and then Sony completely and utterly lost their minds and try to grab the steering wheel while Raimi was driving for the third. Unsurprisingly, the thing crashed. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, Venom was a real, real late addition. Like, they had a completed script with the Vulture and Sandman, and they just thought they could swap out Vulture with Venom despite one character requiring significantly more back story. Including Venom would require a page-one rewrite to make it work but the wheels had already started turning so they just slotted him in where they could. No wonder the film's biggest problem, at least by my reckoning, is it's haphazard structure that doesn't let any one moment breathe and feels rushed and plodding at the same time. That said, like someone else mentioned above, I think those dance sequences are excellent. I like how the black suit didn't turn Spider-Man into a cool, dark badass, but instead into an embarrassing dick. They were hilarious and more super-hero films should have dance sequences. In fact, they should be mandatory.
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Aug 25, 2017 21:54
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The best part of those scenes is when you realize the music is non-diegetic and that he's dancing to silence.
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Aug 25, 2017 22:14
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MacheteZombie posted:I don't think those little girls are going online and calling MoS or BvS grimdark edgelord movies. 99% of the people who saw MoS and WW aren't doing that either. After 5 years of "snapped neck" arguments it feels like bad faith to imply that this: VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:An immigrant alien and an apprehensive public have their faith in humanity tested and then validated. ...is the summary that people call WW optimistic would give for those two movies, and imply anyone who doesn't think all 3 WB movies are equally uplifting is blowing hot air. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Little kids dress up as Iron Man and Wolverine, too. Not sure how that's the metric for optimism. It isn't "the metric", it's a real-world example of the PR that WW enabled which led to those headlines, which didn't happen for the other DC films. It doesn't seem all that head-scratching to compare "do you bleed" to "power, grace, wisdom, wonder" from the marketing campaigns and see how it shapes perception of the final product. I like all the DC movies (didn't see SS) but I hate the appeal to "echo chambers" as a way to assign opinions to a ton of unrelated people.
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Aug 25, 2017 22:28
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Neo Rasa posted:The best part of those scenes is when you realize the music is non-diegetic and that he's dancing to silence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ron-Ikenfc
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Aug 25, 2017 22:30
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Electromax posted:It isn't "the metric", it's a real-world example of the PR that WW enabled which led to those headlines, which didn't happen for the other DC films. It doesn't seem all that head-scratching to compare "do you bleed" to "power, grace, wisdom, wonder" from the marketing campaigns and see how it shapes perception of the final product. Yeah but like you say, that's just PR. The very first scene in this does it as a joke but the rest of the movie is full of this kind of thing. They must've blown the budget hiring models as extras.
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Aug 25, 2017 22:34
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Karloff posted:From what I gather Raimi had largely free reign on the first two, and then Sony completely and utterly lost their minds and try to grab the steering wheel while Raimi was driving for the third. Unsurprisingly, the thing crashed. I think this is also why I like parts of Spiderman 3, but not the movie as a whole, and if they just ejected the Venom stuff even in favour of just a movie centred around Sandman, it would own. Was the Green Goblin 2 stuff in the original script though? I only mention because James Franco clearly giving absolutely no poo poo whatsoever is one of the best parts of SM3.
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Aug 25, 2017 23:54
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Gorn Myson posted:I think you're completely wrong about BvS, but you're bang on about this. The only thing wrong with bvs was that it wasn't lazy if the internet is to be believed. One of the best superhero movies of all time shouted down under cries of "not my Superman and Batman."
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Aug 26, 2017 00:30
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bushisms.txt posted:The only thing wrong with bvs was that it wasn't lazy if the internet is to be believed. One of the best superhero movies of all time shouted down under cries of "not my Superman and Batman." Oh get the gently caress out of here with that poo poo.
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Aug 26, 2017 01:24
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That is an accurate statement though.
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Aug 26, 2017 01:36
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:That is an accurate statement though. To some people, sure.
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Aug 26, 2017 01:37
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BiggerBoat posted:Oh get the gently caress out of here with that poo poo. I don't think he's wrong.
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Aug 26, 2017 01:39
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Phylodox posted:To some people, sure. that's how subjective opinions like 'best [x] of all time' tend to work
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Aug 26, 2017 01:40
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Brother Entropy posted:that's how subjective opinions like 'best [x] of all time' tend to work Yeah, it's accurate for some but not others. That's how subjectivity works. Not arguing with that.
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Aug 26, 2017 01:42
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A day in the life of Martin Shkreli.
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Aug 26, 2017 02:10
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, it's accurate for some but not others. That's how subjectivity works. Not arguing with that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuTviZDhXEE
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Aug 26, 2017 02:12
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The world is ready for a Doom Patrol movie. If WB has the guts to do it.
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Aug 26, 2017 02:58
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BiggerBoat posted:Oh get the gently caress out of here with that poo poo. Which superhero movie(s) do you think is/are better? All are heavily flawed if you look at them as everyone did BvS. It's just that the current memetic narrative doesn't allow that idea to penetrate the current accepted ranking (DC movies bad! Marvel movies good?)
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Aug 26, 2017 03:10
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Phylodox posted:Yeah, it's accurate for some but not others. That's how subjectivity works. Not arguing with that. But you have to consider the dominate subjective experience with the current hegemonic status of comic book movies. People can only handle a certain amount of deviation from the standard before it starts feeling unnatural. MoS and BvS are genuine attempts to elevate comic book superheros beyond the right-wing feel-good fantasies they usually are. BvS asks you to feel sympathy for an African warlord and a sex slave trafficker. People think these are both plot holes. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 03:19
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ruddiger posted:Which superhero movie(s) do you think is/are better? All are heavily flawed if you look at them as everyone did BvS. Much as I hate doing it...I did not like BvS. loving hated it. To avoid any obvious bait and answer the question though, I'll say Darkman, Blade and Sin City were better. To keep the comparisons even cleaner, I'd say Watchmen, 300 and Man of Steel were better, although 300 is not a superhero movie so swap in Logan of you need to. I don't want another loving BvS derail but when I read BvS is "one of the greatest superhero movies of all time" it stopped me dead in my loving tracks
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Aug 26, 2017 03:28
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BiggerBoat posted:I don't want another loving BvS derail but when I read BvS is "one of the greatest superhero movies of all time" it stopped me dead in my loving tracks Are we really going to preen as if this is such a high bar to clear?
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Aug 26, 2017 03:41
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Exactly; that Man Of Steel and Dawn Of Justice are best superhero movies is true, in the basic sense that they actually depict a superhero. To be a superhero, you have to embody an ethical ideal. The vast majority of 'superhero' films are actually about costumed vigilantes: simple humans with pathological motivations. Their level of access to powerful technology is irrelevant here. Man of Steel is a superhero movie. Iron Man is not. (And in the case of both Iron Man 2 and Dark Knight Rises, you have a costumed vigilante fighting desperately to kill the superhero).
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Aug 26, 2017 03:50
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I'm gonna jump in and say I thought The Crow was better than BvS, if that counts. It was just a better paced story and the actual story itself I liked more than BvS'. I just feel like The Crow gets lost in the shuffle because people act like comic book movies didn't "get good" until X-Men or something.
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Aug 26, 2017 03:51
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KVeezy3 posted:Are we really going to preen as if this is such a high bar to clear? I'm certainly hoping not.
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Aug 26, 2017 03:56
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KVeezy3 posted:But you have to consider the dominate subjective experience with the current hegemonic status of comic book movies. People can only handle a certain amount of deviation from the standard before it starts feeling unnatural. MoS and BvS are genuine attempts to elevate comic book superheros beyond the right-wing feel-good fantasies they usually are. BvS asks you to feel sympathy for an African warlord and a sex slave trafficker. People think these are both plot holes. I think this is what it comes down to. Just a sheer difference of interpretation. I'd argue and have argued that BvS is incredibly right-wing, more so than the usual blockbuster fare, I took Superman's smirk and then proceeding annihilation of that warlord as something not constructed to engender sympathy but to communicate "righteous" violence upon a significantly outmatched opponent. A bit like Stardust The Super Wizard. The reason why BvS causes derails is because neither party is willing to accept the other's opinion is "good faith", something I myself have been guilty of. The above quote implies that those who don't like the films are just fools who cannot handle a deviation from an "accepted" way this genre presents themselves. I have argued before the opposite, that BvS is a sort of compilation of multiple contextually self-serious and dark comic book of the last twenty years (I mean it does borrow heavily from The Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman AND a little from The Killing Joke, all three, for better or worse, touchstones of that kind of darker super-hero book), and that it's just empty pandering to a certain teenage boy demographic. But, perhaps we are both not giving the people who feel differently about a film the credit they deserve, when we decide that their opinions must be garbage or must come from a dishonest, mindless or weak place just because they differ from ours.
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Aug 26, 2017 03:59
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Karloff posted:I think this is what it comes down to. Just a sheer difference of interpretation. I'd argue and have argued that BvS is incredibly right-wing, more so than the usual blockbuster fare, I took Superman's smirk and then proceeding annihilation of that warlord as something not constructed to engender sympathy but to communicate "righteous" violence upon a significantly outmatched opponent. A bit like Stardust The Super Wizard. Superman's intervention in Africa is depicted as an event that has reverberating effects throughout the rest of the film. Iron Man intervenes in Afghanistan and there are zero consequences. This is what I'm referring to when I speak of deviations from the norm and right wing fantasies. To say these are merely differences of interpretations is incomprehensible. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 04:11
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Karloff posted:I think this is what it comes down to. Just a sheer difference of interpretation. I'd argue and have argued that BvS is incredibly right-wing, more so than the usual blockbuster fare, I took Superman's smirk and then proceeding annihilation of that warlord as something not constructed to engender sympathy but to communicate "righteous" violence upon a significantly outmatched opponent. A bit like Stardust The Super Wizard. the difference there is that stardust the super wizard doesn't have multiple scenes afterwards questioning whether that righteous violence was laudable and if it didn't just make things worse overall (at least i'm assuming it doesn't, given its reputation)
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Aug 26, 2017 04:13
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Karloff posted:I think this is what it comes down to. Just a sheer difference of interpretation. I'd argue and have argued that BvS is incredibly right-wing, more so than the usual blockbuster fare, I took Superman's smirk and then proceeding annihilation of that warlord as something not constructed to engender sympathy but to communicate "righteous" violence upon a significantly outmatched opponent. It is that. That whole bit is Superman replacing America's drone strike because he's more precise, like Iron Man's first scene in the red and gold suit in his first movie. What I think makes BvS not "incredibly right-wing" is that much of the rest of the running time is dedicated to questioning Superman's actions there. For instance, the line the movie draws from that warlord to Batman to the Gotham police department. edit: Hell, beaten.
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Aug 26, 2017 04:16
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Brother Entropy posted:the difference there is that stardust the super wizard doesn't have multiple scenes afterwards questioning whether that righteous violence was laudable and if it didn't just make things worse overall (at least i'm assuming it doesn't, given its reputation) I assume you, it does not.
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Aug 26, 2017 04:23
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BiggerBoat posted:Much as I hate doing it...I did not like BvS. loving hated it. To avoid any obvious bait and answer the question though, I'll say Darkman, Blade and Sin City were better. To keep the comparisons even cleaner, I'd say Watchmen, 300 and Man of Steel were better, although 300 is not a superhero movie so swap in Logan of you need to. If I recall correctly, you thought BvS looked great but was rendered disjointed/borderline incoherent by its editing and the sheer amount of material crammed into its plot. While you may disagree, surely it wouldn't boggle your mind to find that people thought it looked great and that the other stuff was at least fine. For me, I liked MoS more than BvS but I can see the argument that BvS is a more impressive piece of work overall.
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Aug 26, 2017 04:24
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EDIT: Actually, scratch that, I'm falling once again into the sinkhole of arguing about the film, which wasn't the spirit in which the original post was intended. Karloff fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 04:31
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KVeezy3 posted:Superman's intervention in Africa is depicted as an event that has reverberating effects throughout the rest of the film. Iron Man intervenes in Afghanistan and there are zero consequences. This is untrue. There are almost immediately consequences. He ends up being attacked by American fighter jets and almost instigating an international incident.
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Aug 26, 2017 04:47
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Phylodox posted:This is untrue. There are almost immediately consequences. He ends up being attacked by American fighter jets and almost instigating an international incident. "Almost" here is the key word. These films only take on the affectations of political consequences. It's completely forgotten about 10 minutes after it happens. The audience is not supposed to question it because Iron Man is obviously a good just individual.
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Aug 26, 2017 04:57
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Anyways, I just finished watching Death Note and I loved it. I recently binged through the entire manga and the japanese films and I really appreciate that Wingard and his team essentially made an Elseworld story, thus bringing something new to the table. The film does wonders to humanize both Light and L, making more relatable than their original counterparts while the twist with both Ryuk and Mia is an interesting one and serves to give them more of an actual role on the story The plot is a bit rushed but that is to be expected given the time constraints and thankfully, it manages to be consistent and remain focused on the main plot. I couldn't help myself and went looking for some impressions about the film and unsurprisingly, most of the criticism can be boiled down to "Not my Death Note". The bits that I found the most interesting of the adaptation (the changes to the plot and characterization) are precisely the ones more criticized with some even going so far to literally say "It was a good movie but not a good Death Note movie." I mean, I should've seen it coming but still.
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Aug 26, 2017 05:00
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KVeezy3 posted:"Almost" here is the key word. These films only take on the affectations of political consequences. It's completely forgotten about 10 minutes after it happens. The audience is not supposed to question it because Iron Man is obviously a good just individual. He's a good, just individual who acts impulsively due to his emotions and ends up causing trouble for himself because of it. Is that a description of Tony Stark in Iron Man or Superman in Batman v Superman? No, Iron Man doesn't spend the whole movie beating you over the head with it because it assumes you get the point. It goes on to reveal that the actual villain is American corporate interests.
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Aug 26, 2017 05:03
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Phylodox posted:He's a good, just individual who acts impulsively due to his emotions and ends up causing trouble for himself because of it. Is that a description of Tony Stark in Iron Man or Superman in Batman v Superman? definitely not tony stark because iron man didn't convince me he was a good, just individual in the first place
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Aug 26, 2017 05:17
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Brother Entropy posted:definitely not tony stark because iron man didn't convince me he was a good, just individual in the first place Of course not, in the first place he's a callous, entitled jerk. It's only later that he tries to be better.
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Aug 26, 2017 05:28
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Phylodox posted:Of course not, in the first place he's a callous, entitled jerk. It's only later that he tries to be better. no i'm saying i'm not convinced 'he tries to be better' is actually enough to move him into the category of 'good, just'
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Aug 26, 2017 05:35
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Brother Entropy posted:no i'm saying i'm not convinced 'he tries to be better' is actually enough to move him into the category of 'good, just' He realizes the error of his past life and attitudes and tries, in his own way, to make amends and fix things. He's fallible and human, though, just like Superman (so to speak).
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Aug 26, 2017 05:42
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Ta-Nehisi Coates posted:The point of this language of “intention” and “personal responsibility” is broad exoneration. Mistakes were made. Bodies were broken. People were enslaved. We meant well. We tried our best. “Good intention” is a hall pass through history, a sleeping pill that ensures the Dream. This is the first time I've heard the Iron Man films being described as anti-corporate.
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Aug 26, 2017 05:46
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Phylodox posted:He realizes the error of his past life and attitudes and tries, in his own way, to make amends and fix things. He's fallible and human, though, just like Superman (so to speak). sorry man 'i only stopped being an arms dealer the second i was on the wrong end of a gun' isn't gonna come off as particularly noble or above and beyond to me; that's not a normal guy attaining superman levels of goodness, that's a piece of trash attaining slightly less piece of trash levels especially when his new direction is to keep making weapons but keeping them for himself this time around
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Aug 26, 2017 05:48
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