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Just show the ending, that's like the only interesting thing IBO does that other Gundam shows don't do. Just literally make up stuff before then and it'll probably be better. link the ending scene to every single discussion about IBO so they don't have to suffer like us.
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Aug 26, 2017 15:29
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Tae posted:link the ending scene to every single discussion about IBO so they don't have to suffer like us. IBO has problems but that is a crazy exaggeration.
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Aug 26, 2017 15:31
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IBO might be good, but Turn-A is a classic.
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Aug 26, 2017 15:36
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however you feel about ibo, I think we can all agree that barbatos vs the mobile armor is a really cool fight
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Aug 26, 2017 15:53
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Manatee Cannon posted:however you feel about ibo, I think we can all agree that barbatos vs the mobile armor is a really cool fight And something that the people who advocate cutting IBO down to one season would almost certainly have to cut to make one season feasible.
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Aug 26, 2017 16:28
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Darth Walrus posted:McGillis dressing up like a particularly lame sentai villain while preparing to backstab people who were utterly devoted to him anyway was pretty integral to his character, the plot, and the show's metacommentary elements. The whole dark joke of his character is that he's a broken manchild who's so good at projecting superficial competence that nobody believes what's right in front of them until it's far too late. You know, just like Char. The metacommentary about Char is already present without making it explicit by giving him a mask. Every time the show tried to obviously reference a previous entry it tended to make things worse really; though that's true of the franchise as a whole. 00 had the same problem for instance. Manatee Cannon posted:however you feel about ibo, I think we can all agree that barbatos vs the mobile armor is a really cool fight I'd never seen the fight so I just watched it on YouTube, and I don't think we can. Even speaking from a purely superficial viewpoint, the units move too fast and it makes it difficult to actually take in what's going on a lot of the time and appreciate the interplay between the two units. More generally speaking though, literally everyone else is just standing around stunned and wow'ing at how cool/fast Mikazuki and the Armor are, while Mika never appears emotionally invested in the fight at all. It's like bad shounen basically. Even when Barbatos is losing limbs Mika is just coolly sitting there and maybe "tsk'ing", because the unit isn't keeping up with what he wants to do. The sound of the beam firing and the unit's design and sub-units are cool, but the fight itself is meh.
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Aug 26, 2017 16:46
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Tae posted:Just show the ending, that's like the only interesting thing IBO does that other Gundam shows don't do. Just literally make up stuff before then and it'll probably be better. You've got a lot of gall talking about IBO like it's Gundam AGE. IBO ain't suffering. AGE is hell.
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Aug 26, 2017 16:56
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tsob posted:The metacommentary about Char is already present without making it explicit by giving him a mask. Every time the show tried to obviously reference a previous entry it tended to make things worse really; though that's true of the franchise as a whole. 00 had the same problem for instance. Exaggeration is a key part of parody, and I'd say that McGillis was played for very, very dark humour as well as pathos. He needed to be more Char than Char because he's a mockery of Char, emphasising what makes him such a weird dude in very similar ways to Corin and Harry from Turn A. Missing the context is your problem here. Everyone else is sitting around stunned because the Hashmal had already rendered their machines inoperable, the speed and savagery is the fight's main appeal (it's between one combatant that is totally inhuman and one who is making himself inhuman in response), and Mikazuki's cool, composed mask is breaking and showing us what lies beneath - that little bit where he actually raises his voice is terrifying because he never does that. This isn't just some stoic badass, this is a suicidal berserker casually inflicting permanent, gruesome nerve damage on himself in order to kill something because he sees no value to himself except as a weapon. It's his point of no return.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:04
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Darth Walrus posted:Exaggeration is a key part of parody, and I'd say that McGillis was played for very, very dark humour as well as pathos. He needed to be more Char than Char because he's a mockery of Char, emphasising what makes him such a weird dude in very similar ways to Corin and Harry from Turn A. The more exaggerated parts of both Harry and Corin had nothing to do with Char. Harry's weird outfits and his loyalty aren't based on Char (or Quattro) and neither is Corin's mental instability or his overly boisterous personality. Exaggeration might be a key part of parody, but so is enjoyment and if you don't find something enjoyable it doesn't matter who it parodies it'll still fall flat. I'm also less missing the context and more just don't care about it. Not that I'm not missing some of the context, since I didn't notice that Mikas voice raises at one point, but the argument was that everyone could enjoy the fight, and if you need context to enjoy it then it's not true. It doesn't matter why Mika and the mobile armor are moving superfast while everyone else stands around to me, because it still makes for a boring fight when looking at it externally. If there's a reason why a fight is animated at a quick pace and is hard to follow it doesn't really, because at the end of the day it's still hard to follow because it's moving too fast. If being invested in the cast involved and the show makes it good then that's nice, but it doesn't make it something we can all agree on because viewing it without context doesn't make it a particularly exciting or compelling fight. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 17:21
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Manatee Cannon posted:however you feel about ibo, I think we can all agree that barbatos vs the mobile armor is a really cool fight Eh. I'm torn on it. Out of context it looks really cool, in-context it actually doesn't work for me. It's a bit too much Goes Super Saiyan in a series where that generally doesn't happen and a character going berserk and violent is usually better conveyed through consequence and action. The last fight in the series I think handles the same idea significantly better because it relies (mostly) reasonable extrapolations while the mobile armor fight has several moments where Mika basically looks like he's teleporting like a DBZ character.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:26
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ImpAtom posted:Eh. I'm torn on it. when you say it's better conveyed through consequence, what about like the character being permanently paralyzed on one side of their body so they have to be carried around like a sack of potatoes, and only being fully functional when hooked up to the machine that paralyzed them?
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Aug 26, 2017 17:38
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Guy Goodbody posted:when you say it's better conveyed through consequence, what about like the character being permanently paralyzed on one side of their body so they have to be carried around like a sack of potatoes, and only being fully functional when hooked up to the machine that paralyzed them? I don't mean the post-fight consequence, I mean the fight itself. Taken on its own it doesn't work for me as an IBO fight which usually are a bit weighter and with more impact. (Though IBO kinda loses that as the series goes on to be fair.) Like just on its own it's an awesome fight, red-eye Barbatos is terrifying, and I love to watch it, but while it's probably my favorite fight from IBO in terms of sheer choreography, it lacks the sense of weight that I think IBO has at its finest. (In comparison I really hate the Brewers arc but Mika just butchering his way through the Human Debris is a much more IBO-esque fight to me.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 17:39
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ImpAtom posted:Eh. I'm torn on it. The point of the fight is to show just why the Gundams exist at all. And goddrat were they needed  .
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Aug 26, 2017 17:42
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having just started IBO (on ep 12iirc) its pretty good so far but i wish they could have skipped the weird polygamy stuff
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Aug 26, 2017 18:30
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Kuvo posted:having just started IBO (on ep 12iirc) its pretty good so far but i wish they could have skipped the weird polygamy stuff
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Aug 26, 2017 18:58
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Raxivace posted:Yeah that's not going away
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Aug 26, 2017 19:34
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Kuvo posted:having just started IBO (on ep 12iirc) its pretty good so far but i wish they could have skipped the weird polygamy stuff For good or ill (mostly ill) it's a central theme of the series.
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Aug 26, 2017 19:37
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Definitely-Not-Char and Definitely-Not-Kamina was the main hook of IBO for me. Also the best dub I've seen in a while. S1's finale and S2's drag are certainly an effect of 'wait, we got renewed?'Kuvo posted:i wish they could have skipped the weird polygamy stuff I didn't see anything wrong with it, Naze was never creepy about it. It was Atra's projection and lack of boundaries that made it weird at one point, but at least that leads somewhere.
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Aug 26, 2017 20:19
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everything about naze's situation was creepy
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Aug 26, 2017 20:25
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ImpAtom posted:The second season suffers from the same effect if not worse. it wastes a whooooole lot of time, to the point I would say you can reasonably jump in 5 or so episodes from the end and not actually have missed much in the way of character development and only a little in the way of plot. Things happen fairly breakneck for the last five episodes but it kind of drives home how little changes in the first 20 and unfortunately how relatively little any of the characters actually develop. They're making the same mistakes for the same reasons with the same responses until the very end which isn't the worst thing in the world but makes for a lot of plodding. A 1-season show with less cruft would have done a lot better before IBO. Someone give me the specific episodes from both seasons that they feel give me the abridged experience, and I will watch them.
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Aug 26, 2017 20:51
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Manatee Cannon posted:everything about naze's situation was creepy Naze is legit the only part of IBO that I think was pretty much total garbage from a writing standpoint. Yikes.
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Aug 26, 2017 21:39
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tsob posted:The more exaggerated parts of both Harry and Corin had nothing to do with Char. Harry's weird outfits and his loyalty aren't based on Char (or Quattro) and neither is Corin's mental instability or his overly boisterous personality. Exaggeration might be a key part of parody, but so is enjoyment and if you don't find something enjoyable it doesn't matter who it parodies it'll still fall flat. I'm also less missing the context and more just don't care about it. Not that I'm not missing some of the context, since I didn't notice that Mikas voice raises at one point, but the argument was that everyone could enjoy the fight, and if you need context to enjoy it then it's not true. It doesn't matter why Mika and the mobile armor are moving superfast while everyone else stands around to me, because it still makes for a boring fight when looking at it externally. If there's a reason why a fight is animated at a quick pace and is hard to follow it doesn't really, because at the end of the day it's still hard to follow because it's moving too fast. The pair of 'em's weird outfits are absolutely a nod to Char, because Char was flamboyant as gently caress, both as Captain Aznable and Lieutenant Bajeena. And if you don't see how a tragicomic, treacherous manchild piloting red suits with an insane mad-on for Gundams might be somewhat suggestive, then I direct you to Char's last words about Lalah. They're basically his two halves - Harry is Char at his best, and Corin is Char at his worst. ImpAtom posted:Eh. I'm torn on it. It's a temporary resurrection of an ancient, mythic era in which genocidal angel-beasts fought children bound to demons. It looking less grounded and more otherworldly than the rest of IBO seems appropriate.
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Aug 26, 2017 21:57
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Kanos posted:Naze is legit the only part of IBO that I think was pretty much total garbage from a writing standpoint. Yikes. Zedd fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 22:41
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if naze had just been going around finding girls that had been taken advantage of and giving them a home, that would have been fine. him as the dad and his main lady as the mom? sure, alright. but he instead took those girls and made them his own personal harem and that's where it gets disgusting. gently caress naze that scene where his main girlfriend expounds on the virtues of monogamy to that one girl then has to backpedal when she brings up naze was pretty funny. even the writers didn't know what the hell they were doing with those characters
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Aug 26, 2017 22:49
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Corin spends much more of the series as a crazed monk than he does as an actual threat. I don't think Corin Nander, he is a CHAR, but I could see him being that kind of person in whatever part of the Dark History he came from before he got frozen.
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Aug 26, 2017 23:47
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Darth Walrus posted:It's a temporary resurrection of an ancient, mythic era in which genocidal angel-beasts fought children bound to demons. It looking less grounded and more otherworldly than the rest of IBO seems appropriate. That actually makes me like it less considering IBO's later overarching theme of "McGillis totally buys the myth and misunderstands drastically." Like "McGillis VIEWS it this way" is fine but the myth being dirty and unpleasant and not at all cool and glamorous would work better for me at least. (Again, something I think the ending does better.)
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Aug 27, 2017 00:32
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ImpAtom posted:That actually makes me like it less considering IBO's later overarching theme of "McGillis totally buys the myth and misunderstands drastically." Like "McGillis VIEWS it this way" is fine but the myth being dirty and unpleasant and not at all cool and glamorous would work better for me at least. (Again, something I think the ending does better.) you're kinda missing the part where a child is crippled and can only function while attached to the death machine. that fight wasn't presented as glamorous; it was presented as a monster killing another monster. mcgillis misses the point in the same way
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Aug 27, 2017 00:35
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Manatee Cannon posted:you're kinda missing the part where a child is crippled and can only function while attached to the death machine. that fight wasn't presented as glamorous; it was presented as a monster killing another monster. mcgillis misses the point in the same way I am absolutely aware of that. I don't think the fight portrayed it well. In terms of handling Mika becoming a monster I think several other fights do it better and Mika's terrifying rampage in the final episode is a much better use of monster-Barbatos because it includes the sense of violence and destruction against human foes than IBO excels at. While the AI MAs are neat from a setting perspective I think they're actually working against IBO's strengths when actually portrayed and I'm glad we only ever see the one.
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Aug 27, 2017 00:41
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Manatee Cannon posted:if naze had just been going around finding girls that had been taken advantage of and giving them a home, that would have been fine. him as the dad and his main lady as the mom? sure, alright. but he instead took those girls and made them his own personal harem and that's where it gets disgusting. gently caress naze He explicitly doesn't make them into his harem. Making them his wives is a legal and cultural fiction that allows him to tool around with the all female crews without the space mafia deciding to gently caress with them. He does sleep with a number of them, yeah, but the show actively refutes the idea that he pressures them in any way. Still weird, but you don't need to make up reasons to be mad at it for being creepy.
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Aug 27, 2017 01:17
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I mean....there's no getting around it being creepy. It's loving weird.
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Aug 27, 2017 01:19
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Caros posted:He explicitly doesn't make them into his harem. Making them his wives is a legal and cultural fiction that allows him to tool around with the all female crews without the space mafia deciding to gently caress with them. It's loving weird and creepy dude
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Aug 27, 2017 01:40
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Caros posted:He explicitly doesn't make them into his harem. Making them his wives is a legal and cultural fiction that allows him to tool around with the all female crews without the space mafia deciding to gently caress with them. There is pressure inherent in the very foundation of how the Turbines are set up. You've got a bunch of no-hope drifter women who are a step above human debris. They are then employed by Naze Turbine and legally granted status as his wives to protect them from the outside. Naze has no compunctions about loving any and all of them who profess a willingness to jump his bones. The near instant collapse of the Turbines as an entity the moment Naze was no longer in the picture and them being saved from a near instantaneous dive back into their original position as debris only by the goodwill of McMurdo emphasizes Naze's power over them. Let's use our imaginations for a moment. You're a woman in this situation who was saved from a nightmarish life of torture/death/slavery by this man and you are now 100% entirely dependent this man's continued goodwill. There's a crushing amount of pressure there for you to want to make him happy with you and keep him that way, and potentially a lot of pressure from other women in the organization who will either want you to butt out(so that Naze will like them more and make sure to keep them around) or participate(to make sure Naze is happy). There wouldn't be any problem with how the Turbines were set up if Naze wasn't loving any and all of them who were interested, but he is, so he's a shitbag who is either consciously or unconsciously abusing his position of power while mouthing "Well they said they wanted to!" It also doesn't improve this view of Naze as a sleazy fucker that every single one of the Turbines girls we see on screen is both young and conventionally pretty, which makes a little voice in your head wonder if he's cherry picking the women he's saving. We don't see any little old women Turbines or disfigured or disabled Turbines. I understand that the Turbines were meant to be an example of how an alternative familial setup can be healthy and happy, but "man happily paired with an indeterminate number of women who he has effectively absolute power over" is not a really good way to do it. Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 02:14
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PMush Perfect posted:Let's call this a challenge, then! I'll still be watching Turn-A first, but I'm interested.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:29
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PMush Perfect posted:This was not facetious, by the way. don't do that, it's not an episodic show. If you're gonna skip big chunks of the show you might as well not watch it at all.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:34
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Kinda drunk and watching Endless Waltz since it's the only anime thing I have saved outside of my destroyed external drive and seriously,. why is Wufei so loving terrible? In a show where it's cast is really it's saving grace he is literally the worst thing to happen. If I didn't hate Monsha, Nina, and occasionally Kira more I'd consider Wufei a Gundam war crime.
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Aug 27, 2017 05:18
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Guy Goodbody posted:don't do that, it's not an episodic show. If you're gonna skip big chunks of the show you might as well not watch it at all. Yeah. I mean, I can see a tighter movie version, but that both means taking bits from a lot of episodes, and cutting character development for the secondary cast. Akihiro's arc is almost entirely built on the more "filler" episodes.
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Aug 27, 2017 06:40
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Tulalip Tulips posted:Kinda drunk and watching Endless Waltz since it's the only anime thing I have saved outside of my destroyed external drive and seriously,. why is Wufei so loving terrible? In a show where it's cast is really it's saving grace he is literally the worst thing to happen. If I didn't hate Monsha, Nina, and occasionally Kira more I'd consider Wufei a Gundam war crime. He's just the face of the lost soldiers. If anything, I always liked how he was perpetually grumpy. It was comical.
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Aug 27, 2017 07:28
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I remember that when I last watched it, I thought I would have liked Endless Waltz more if they just straight up made Wufei a Big Boss style villain and cut out all that stuff about about Treize's missing daughter you had never heard of before and that probably wasn't even his daughter anyways.
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Aug 27, 2017 08:41
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Raxivace posted:I remember that when I last watched it, I thought I would have liked Endless Waltz more if they just straight up made Wufei a Big Boss style villain and cut out all that stuff about about Treize's missing daughter you had never heard of before and that probably wasn't even his daughter anyways. Instead, Treize would live on... THROUGH THIS ARM!
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Aug 27, 2017 09:50
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PMush Perfect posted:This was not facetious, by the way. Just watch the whole of IBO, or at least season 1. Season 1 is legitimately great right up until the ending walks back a bunch of clearly-fatal casualties because they were afraid to commit to killing off a bunch of secondary characters. Season 2 is decent with some good character moments, but doesn't really go anywhere and botches its epilogue. They're both entertaining and have cool mech designs. Watch Turn-A first, though, simply because it's the best long-format Gundam show.
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