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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't understand how media demonizing antifa would have tricked people who personally witnessed the event. Regardless, if media is going to demonize antifa by misconstruing their violent (but justified) protests, isn't that a relevant consideration when discussing the efficacy of those violent protests? Jesus Christ you're dense
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Aug 29, 2017 00:12
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't understand how media demonizing antifa would have tricked people who personally witnessed the event. Regardless, if media is going to demonize antifa by misconstruing their violent (but justified) protests, isn't that a relevant consideration when discussing the efficacy of those violent protests? An unironic  "but the optics!!!!" post. Pure neoliberalism bullshit at its finest.
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Aug 29, 2017 00:13
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Aren't these protests less efficient at accomplishing their goal when they accomplish their goal and are made to look bad by the media?????
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Aug 29, 2017 00:19
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Basically, that is an argument to let the media effectively police a narrative, which may actually not be the best thing who want to openly oppose the far-right.
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Aug 29, 2017 00:22
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Centrists suffer from the same problem that the US of A does on the global level: They have had control of the stage for so long and have been able to skate after so many screw-ups that would devastate less entrenched powers, that they literally can't tell the difference between success and failure anymore. "Huh, counter-protesters brought out the ugly, deadly side of conservative violence for the world to see. We can literally run against Nazis now and force the GOP to own their hate or forsake their base. It's the kind of political opportunity that comes by once a generation. How can we best employ this?" HEY GUYS CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? This mess in our campuses just isn't cool! You are empowering the meanies by opposing them so vehemently! Just look at how Baked Alaska, Richard Spencer and other alt-right shitlords are high on the hog now! Just saying, Heather Whatshername would still be alive if she was back home tweeting our fine #Resist memes and voting for our new stickers. Maybe Sean Hannity was on to something when he came up with this alt-left jazz... Then, again, this is to be expected. It's the party who saw streets flood with a massive, surprising mass of humanity against the war in 2003 and decided "We better stay the hell away from this, make no attempt to boost or be a part of this movement. Why engage with the people at all? Besides, no senator who votes against Iraq is ever, say, gonna be president!"
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Aug 29, 2017 00:59
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WampaLord posted:An unironic If violent protest is easier for the media to misconstrue, that's a valid reason to prefer nonviolent protest that you can't just hand wave away. Protestors are concerned with the optics of their protests. Also thank you for using neoliberalism in a context completely divorced from economics, that brings me back to the heady days of summer 2016.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:19
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Lol the mainstream media has already been reduced to virtual irrelevance. Who cares what they say.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:27
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JeffersonClay posted:If violent protest is easier for the media to misconstrue, that's a valid reason to prefer nonviolent protest that you can't just hand wave away. Protestors are concerned with the optics of their protests. Also thank you for using neoliberalism in a context completely divorced from economics, that brings me back to the heady days of summer 2016. The media will absolutely never give the Left a fair take.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:28
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JeffersonClay posted:If violent protest is easier for the media to misconstrue, that's a valid reason to prefer nonviolent protest that you can't just hand wave away. Protestors are concerned with the optics of their protests. Also thank you for using neoliberalism in a context completely divorced from economics, that brings me back to the heady days of summer 2016. Literally let your optics determine your entire strategy instead of having a strategy and adjusting details You stupid gently caress
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Aug 29, 2017 01:30
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Chomskyan posted:Lol the mainstream media has already been reduced to virtual irrelevance. Who cares what they say. Boomers have the right to vote and exercise it regularly.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:52
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Boomers opinions are pretty well set in stone. So, actually, gently caress them
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Aug 29, 2017 02:04
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Look at this shameful neoliberal idiot concerned with the optics of his protests.quote:Nonviolence has also meant that my people in the agonizing struggles of recent years have taken suffering upon themselves instead of inflicting it on others. It has meant, as I said, that we are no longer afraid and cowed. But in some substantial degree it has meant that we do not want to instill fear in others or into the society of which we are a part. The movement does not seek to liberate Negroes at the expense of the humiliation and enslavement of whites. It seeks no victory over anyone. It seeks to liberate American society and to share in the self-liberation of all the people. https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1964/king-lecture.html
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Aug 29, 2017 02:05
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oh lord
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Aug 29, 2017 02:08
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JeffersonClay posted:Look at this shameful neoliberal idiot concerned with the optics of his protests. We can get into why (as great as MLK was) the power holding white elite clearly is invested in holding his narrative over, say, Malcolm X, but I somehow doubt you'd actually give a poo poo anyway.
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Aug 29, 2017 02:12
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JeffersonClay posted:Look at this shameful neoliberal idiot concerned with the optics of his protests. jesus christ
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Aug 29, 2017 02:20
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JeffersonClay posted:If violent protest is easier for the media to misconstrue, that's a valid reason to prefer nonviolent protest that you can't just hand wave away. Protestors are concerned with the optics of their protests. Also thank you for using neoliberalism in a context completely divorced from economics, that brings me back to the heady days of summer 2016. We shouldn't defend rabbis from violent fascists because the media might lie about who started it? That doesn't sound moral. Follow-up question: how do you respond to the argument that Hillary should not have run because Republicans lied about her for 25 years and the has media focused on those lies because clickbait about emails is more profitable than reporting on health care proposals? Should anyone that Republicans lie about retire from politics because the media will misconstrue the truth?
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Aug 29, 2017 02:22
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JeffersonClay posted:Look at this shameful neoliberal idiot concerned with the optics of his protests.  E: VVV I think you shouldn't try to claim what Dr. King would have wanted to do in regards to a modern day situation, you loving ghoul. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 02:24
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So you think MLK would not continue to advocate for nonviolent protests were he still alive? Hot take! I think he'd chafe at being called a fascist enabler. Like is this thread so far up its own rear end that y'all think its some terrible dishonest tactic to cite Martin Luther King Jr. on appropriate tactics for dismantling white supremacy? 13Pandora13 posted:We can get into why (as great as MLK was) the power holding white elite clearly is invested in holding his narrative over, say, Malcolm X, but I somehow doubt you'd actually give a poo poo anyway. Like I'd love to talk about this, actually, just to see if anyone would argue that MLK's nonviolence stance was actually pro-fascism. VitalSigns posted:Follow-up question: how do you respond to the argument that Hillary should not have run because Republicans lied about her for 25 years and the has media focused on those lies because clickbait about emails is more profitable than reporting on health care proposals? JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 02:32
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just imo, i think he would be actually practicing nonviolence and not bitching about it on forums, and also he would be devoting approximately 99% of his time denouncing racists and approximately 0% of his time denouncing antifa. Just imho 2 cents
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Aug 29, 2017 02:39
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JeffersonClay posted:Look at this shameful neoliberal idiot concerned with the optics of his protests.
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Aug 29, 2017 02:58
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JeffersonClay posted:Look at this shameful neoliberal idiot concerned with the optics of his protests. So what are your thoughts on his protection The Deacons?
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Aug 29, 2017 02:58
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"Come on guys, it's not laziness and inaction that keeps me from defending the only people doing something effective against the groundswell of bigotry! I'm just following the example of the greats, like MLK!" "Also, I wasn't cheating on my spouse with a prostitute last week. I was, um, embracing the cause of free love and sexual liberation. Yeah, that's the ticket!"
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Aug 29, 2017 03:06
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MLK certainly wasn't concerned about the optics of advocating democratic socialism, however overshadowed that advocacy was by the more immediate concerns of his time. Any thoughts on that?
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Aug 29, 2017 03:08
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::in Jeff Foxworthy voice:: If you use an out-of-context MLK quote to defend your views, you're probably a racist.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:08
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Calibanibal posted:just imo, i think he would be actually practicing nonviolence and not bitching about it on forums, and also he would be devoting approximately 99% of his time denouncing racists and approximately 0% of his time denouncing antifa. Just imho 2 cents See I think if antifa crashed one of his protests and started beating up white supremacists he'd be pissed, because he spent considerable time and effort ensuring his protestors wouldn't do that. Peachfart posted:::in Jeff Foxworthy voice:: oh please, tell me what MLK really meant when he advocated for nonviolent protest as the only effective solution to white supremacy.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:13
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JeffersonClay posted:Like is this thread so far up its own rear end that y'all think its some terrible dishonest tactic to cite Martin Luther King Jr. on appropriate tactics for dismantling white supremacy?
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Aug 29, 2017 03:15
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JeffersonClay posted:oh please, tell me what MLK really meant when he advocated for nonviolent protest as the only effective solution to white supremacy.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:19
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"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." Also from MLK
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Aug 29, 2017 03:19
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I'm sure Dr Martin Luther "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity" King Jr would spend his time backing up white liberals on internet forums making both sides are just as bad arguments.JeffersonClay posted:We thought this wouldn't matter enough to affect the outcome and we were wrong. I wish we'd been more concerned with optics, absolutely. I'm glad you're consistent at least, and also that these threads seem to be doing you some good considering how much your stance on candidates with avoidable self-inflicted baggage has changed. What do you think of the "optics" about the way the primary was run? Do we need to make changes there to improve our chances of having goodwill from the losing side and from the general public: abolish superdelegates, require state parties to allow same-day registration and end this nonsense of party registration ending months before many people even know who is running, actually enforce the rules against say leaking debate questions, apologize for and pledge to end divide-and-conquer tactics like racism and anti-semitism, require candidates to release transcripts of any paid speeches to lobbying groups, etc? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 03:20
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JeffersonClay posted:So you think MLK would not continue to advocate for nonviolent protests were he still alive? Hot take! I think he'd chafe at being called a fascist enabler. The ironic thing is he'd probably be horrified at today's situation with the left ('but will that solve racism???' 'we have to violently suppress certain speech!') considering that he was already expanding his view beyond race to overall poverty before It's also pretty funny how people like you and the people you're arguing against always forget that final bit of his life. Crowsbeak posted:So what are your thoughts on his protection The Deacons? There's a bit of difference between defending your community against physical violence (the deacons) and proactively trying to silence others through violence (antifa) ________ quote:Secondly, let us keep the issues where they are. The issue is injustice. The issue is the refusal of Memphis to be fair and honest in its dealings with its public servants, who happen to be sanitation workers. Now, we've got to keep attention on that. That's always the problem with a little violence. You know what happened the other day, and the press dealt only with the window-breaking. I read the articles. They very seldom got around to mentioning the fact that one thousand, three hundred sanitation workers are on strike, and that Memphis is not being fair to them, and that Mayor Loeb is in dire need of a doctor. They didn't get around to that. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkivebeentothemountaintop.htm quote:The court case at issue concerned the City of Memphis’ desire to prevent a march in support of striking sanitation workers—the city wished to ban the demonstration because an earlier sanitation workers’ march (held on March 28, 1968) had become disorderly and resulted in rioting and the use of aggressive law enforcement measures including mace and tear gas. King wished to lead another, peaceful march for the cause, but the City of Memphis obtained a temporary restraining order to prevent it from occurring https://blogs.princeton.edu/mudd/2013/04/aclu-court-document-summons-kings-last-days/
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Aug 29, 2017 03:36
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I'm glad y'all have not relegated MLK to the trash bin of history despite his shameful, unrepentant advocacy for nonviolent protest and his concern with the optics of his protests. Perhaps the posters in this thread suggesting all critics of violent protest are pro-fascist were wrong to make that generalization?
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Aug 29, 2017 03:48
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jc the day you practice nonviolence in your own life is the day ill allow you to advocate it lol
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Aug 29, 2017 03:50
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I'm not advocating violence or nonviolence. I have no idea if Antifa is helping or hurting. I don't know if MLK was more or less effective than Malcolm X, or if it took both of them in concert to make the gains they did. I just know people suggesting anyone who doesn't support violent protests must be a secret fascist are real dumb.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:59
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm not advocating violence or nonviolence. I have no idea if Antifa is helping or hurting. I don't know if MLK was more or less effective than Malcolm X, or if it took both of them in concert to make the gains they did. I just know people suggesting anyone who doesn't support violent protests must be a secret fascist are real dumb. god I can't believe you're still at it no-one's claimed that and you're idiotic as hell JC. people who poo poo on antifa for "making a non-violent protest violent" are supporting fascists. not people who advocate for non-violence. the clergy antifa defended weren't fascist supporters, and they were nonviolent. but they realized antifa was a force for good and didn't spend time attacking them in lieu of fascists. and you advocated for fascists when you came waddling into this thread pretending antifa was attacking "peaceful, non-violent nazis". get out of this thread fascist supporter. it should be obvious by now that no-one supports your idiocy, leftist or centrist. take your fascist bootlicking elsewhere and stop trying to use MLK jr as a shield for your idiocy. edit: oh wait, a trump voter supports you! what good company you keep you fascist bootlicker! Condiv fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 04:04
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Call Me Charlie posted:There's a bit of difference between defending your community against physical violence (the deacons) and proactively trying to silence others through violence (antifa) Poor poor fascists  Why can't they just be let alone to run over women in peace 
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Aug 29, 2017 04:04
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Peachfart posted:::in Jeff Foxworthy voice:: that racist quote as JC's subtitle, he said that "ironically" about black people. there's no question he's racist Condiv fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 04:10
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Condiv posted:that racist quote as JC's subtitle, he said that "ironically" about black people. there's no question he's racist No, I said it mocking Rudatron's racist post that immediately preceded it. Condiv posted:no-one's claimed that and you're idiotic as hell JC Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/902162464602763264 Him: antifa's violence is counterproductive You: pro- fascist! And then you said it again. Condiv posted:the people you quoted are idiots that are supporting fascists just like you, yes! Them: antifa messed up our nonviolent protest You: fascist supporters! JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 04:23
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"I care -deeply- about optics. That's why I supported and still defend the political viability of one of the country's most unpopular, controversial candidates, who has had a whole media m machine dedicated to sliming her for some 20 years now, even after a tense primary in which she got debate questions ahead of time from a TV host, refused to release her speeches to the financial bigshots that funded her campaign, collapsed on camera and had to be loaded into a van like a sack of flour. I am a coherent person and my thought on issues should be taken seriously."
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Aug 29, 2017 04:27
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Call Me Charlie posted:The ironic thing is he'd probably be horrified at today's situation with the left ('but will that solve racism???' 'we have to violently suppress certain speech!') considering that he was already expanding his view beyond race to overall poverty before Homie antifa are defending their communities
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Aug 29, 2017 04:32
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if you could be bothered to read the thread you'd see me express regret for not being more concerned with optics IRT the 2016 election two pages ago. Biden would have won.
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Aug 29, 2017 04:32
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