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Franchescanado posted:Ego makes a big point of referring to him as "the notorious Star-Lord" or something when they first meet, and Peter isn't use to that recognition/respect, so there's a few moments that push him into wanting to listen to Ego even before he finds out he's a god. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 owns.
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Aug 29, 2017 20:57
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Some people are easily impressed. Here's something that's genuinely impressive: An Actual Good Visual from GotG. 
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Aug 29, 2017 21:04
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That's one of my favorite shots. It really brings out the kid in Peter. Alone. Small. Vulnerable.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:07
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Some people are easily impressed. Some people are boring SMG clones
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Aug 29, 2017 21:08
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Super Fan posted:Some people are boring SMG clones Nah, SMG's clever, has good insights occasionally and actually engages people's discussions from his pedestal
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Aug 29, 2017 21:10
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CelticPredator posted:That's one of my favorite shots. It really brings out the kid in Peter. Alone. Small. Vulnerable. Yeah, that's why it's bad that they keep forgetting that he's a character for satirizing manchildren.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:11
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yeah, that's why it's bad that they keep forgetting that he's a character for satirizing manchildren. This is something your brain created.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:15
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CelticPredator posted:This is something your brain created. Peter Quill is an immature thirtysomething man trying to live a fantasy life modeled after fictional heroes like Han Solo, Captain Kirk, and Indiana Jones (he's explicitly seen Indiana Jones and parses his life through it). He wants people to call him by the cool superhero nickname his mother gave him, and is excited whenever someone plays along. He's repeatedly mocked for these pretences. He has mommy and daddy issues. He's rather straight-forwardly satirical/parodic, but is not used in story that's satire or parody.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:35
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Can it really be said that someone is trying to live a fantasy life if they actually fly a space ship, gently caress aliens, shoot people with laser guns, lived with space pirates/thieves. It's not like he chose this when he was in his early twenties, he was kidnapped and thrown into that lifestyle as a child. He never really had a chance to decide if he wanted to be an intergalactic bank teller.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:38
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He's immature because his childhood circumstances were hosed up without closure or him ever working through what it did to him, but it's in a world where "Ravager" is an organized regulated career path so it's not like he's not doing well for himself all things considered. He sort of gets over the Star-Lord thing at the end of Guardians 1. He doesn't tell Ronan "I'M STAR-LORD," he says "WE'RE THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY." Ego is regressive on all levels and fits the way most people would define "manchild" way more accurately.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:45
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Franchescanado posted:Can it really be said that someone is trying to live a fantasy life if they actually fly a space ship, gently caress aliens, shoot people with laser guns, lived with space pirates/thieves. It's not like he chose this when he was in his early twenties, he was kidnapped and thrown into that lifestyle as a child. He never really had a chance to decide if he wanted to be an intergalactic bank teller. That just means that the universe makes it easier to live out his fantasy life. At one point he even recognizes that he's basically in one of the stories he consumed as a kid: "So, this orb has a real shiny blue suitcase, Ark of the Covenant, Maltese Falcon sort of vibe. What is it?" Neo Rasa posted:He sort of gets over the Star-Lord thing at the end of Guardians 1. He doesn't tell Ronan "I'M STAR-LORD," he says "WE'RE THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY." The ending of Guardians 1 is the part that reveals definitively that it's a childhood fantasy that he's playing out, only clarifying that it was also inspired by his mother in addition to his media consumption. What happens is that his fantasy is fulfilled. He gets to be a real space-adventurer.
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Aug 29, 2017 21:50
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Peter Quill's entire arc over the course of the two movies (and probably going forward into Infinity War and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3) is that living his childhood dream is, in and of itself, sad and unfulfilling. It's only by forming deeper, familial bonds with his fellow Guardians that he finds any kind of peace and maturity. Kickass space adventures aren't his reward, they're what he needs to do to earn his reward; the love and acceptance of his friends.
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Aug 29, 2017 22:07
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Phylodox posted:Peter Quill's entire arc over the course of the two movies (and probably going forward into Infinity War and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3) is that living his childhood dream is, in and of itself, sad and unfulfilling. It's only by forming deeper, familial bonds with his fellow Guardians that he finds any kind of peace and maturity. Kickass space adventures aren't his reward, they're what he needs to do to earn his reward; the love and acceptance of his friends. Actually, he is able to live out his childhood dream successfully. Even though he's rather pathetic, the universe turns out to be pretty conforming to his fantasy life and he becomes fairly successful as part of a interstellar group of vigilante-mercenaries.
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Aug 29, 2017 22:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Actually, he is able to live out his childhood dream successfully. Even though he's rather pathetic, the universe turns out to be pretty conforming to his fantasy life and he becomes fairly successful as part of a interstellar group of vigilante-mercenaries. You're just ignoring huge parts of the movies to make them fit your idea of what they should be. Quill is clearly sad, lonely, and embittered by his life at the beginning of Guardians of the Galaxy. Being a "kickass space adventurer" is miserable and empty on its own, yet you choose to interpret it as "the movie tells us that living your manchild dreams is awesome". Without meaningful, emotional connections, those childhood fantasies are completely empty.
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Aug 29, 2017 22:35
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Phylodox posted:You're just ignoring huge parts of the movies to make them fit your idea of what they should be. Quill is clearly sad, lonely, and embittered by his life at the beginning of Guardians of the Galaxy. Being a "kickass space adventurer" is miserable and empty on its own, yet you choose to interpret it as "the movie tells us that living your manchild dreams is awesome". Without meaningful, emotional connections, those childhood fantasies are completely empty. He's bending the film to fulfill his arguments while ironically accusing the world's universe of literally bending around Quill so he can make pop culture references. Because success = fulfillment, duh.
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Aug 29, 2017 22:38
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Phylodox posted:You're just ignoring huge parts of the movies to make them fit your idea of what they should be. Quill is clearly sad, lonely, and embittered by his life at the beginning of Guardians of the Galaxy. You're confusing Quill as an adult with Quill as a child. Quill as an adult is a space outlaw who gets tired of working for/with his rear end in a top hat adoptive father, and betrays him so that he can live independently. He's a goof who starts dancing around in an ancient necropolis. Even though he's immature, he's gotten over his loss and displacement. It's been over two decades, after all. This is why he expresses no sorrow or grief after the prologue except for reading an old letter from his mother. He has no tragedy to him as an adult. In the second movie, he's touched by a telepath who can scan the deepest feelings of people. This is so involving that touching people who have experienced tragedy can send her into a crying fit. She feels nothing from Quill but lust. Franchescanado posted:Because success = fulfillment, duh. Are you saying that Quill isn't fulfilled by the sudden windfall of finding a new family and being a hero? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 22:55
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:He's a goof who starts dancing around in an ancient necropolis. Even though he's immature, he's gotten over his loss and displacement. This alone shows you've completely missed the point of the movie. What's one of the very first things we learn about Quill in the scene immediately preceding the one you're referring to? He has great empathy, to the point that he'll get into a fight with other boys to protect small animals. The very next time we see him? He's blithely dancing through ruins, unaffected by all the death and destruction, kicking small animals and using them as a microphone, all while listening to the music he closely associates with the subject of his loss. And yet all you've taken from that scene is that he's "goofy".
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Aug 29, 2017 23:10
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Phylodox posted:This alone shows you've completely missed the point of the movie. You specifically said that he was "sad, lonely, and embittered," but what you're describing here is callousness. Being sad, lonely, and embittered is not necessary for being callous. What's happened is that over two decades have passed, and Quill is a very different person as an adult than as a child. Child Quill is morose and sensitive, adult Quill is immature and self-absorbed. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 23:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You specifically said that he was ''sad, lonely, and embittered," but what you're actually describing here is callousness. Being sad, lonely, and embittered is not necessary for being callous. So, do you need someone to walk you through the whole movie pointing out all the ways it shows you Quill is dysfunctional? Like, his obviously empty, superficial relationship with Bereet, the magenta lady he completely forgot was on his ship? Or his tendency to lash out thoughtlessly whenever someone questions his refusal to move past his loss as embodied by his Walkman, like when he attacked the guard for listening to "his" music? Or the fact that he's wilfully repressing his tendency towards empathy, as shown when he sees Rocket's implants but forces himself to look away? But, no, Quill's just a happy-go-lucky lunkhead because [reasons].
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Aug 29, 2017 23:25
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Phylodox posted:So, do you need someone to walk you through the whole movie pointing out all the ways it shows you Quill is dysfunctional? Like, his obviously empty, superficial relationship with Bereet, the magenta lady he completely forgot was on his ship? Or his tendency to lash out thoughtlessly whenever someone questions his refusal to move past his loss as embodied by his Walkman, like when he attacked the guard for listening to "his" music? Or the fact that he's wilfully repressing his tendency towards empathy, as shown when he sees Rocket's implants but forces himself to look away? You specifically defined his dysfunctions as being "sad, lonely, and embittered," but none of those indicate that he's experiencing sadness, loneliness, or embitterment. Having a one-night stand or whatever their relationship is doesn't indicate that he's any of those things. The Walkman is very imporant to to him, but even if that makes him seem like manchild, it's ultimately understandable for him to value a memento. That he values a memento doesn't mean that he's sad, lonely, or embittered. Not staring at someone's disfigured body is a fairly sensible thing to do. I argue that he's a happy-go-lucky guy because he's joyful and social. He's a man who talks about Kevin Bacon teaching people the joy of dancing in the movie Footlose. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 23:38
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Right, so rather than admit you're wrong you get hung up on pedantry and insist on accepting only the most superficial interpretation of any given scene. Good to know. "Movie is funny, so movie can't have deeper themes!"
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Aug 29, 2017 23:43
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Quill is forming superficial relationships and pushing Yondu away (he describes him as "family" at the end of 1) because he is running from the death of his mother. They even spell this out in 2 paralleling it to Ego's rambling ways. It's not unfulfilling in and of itself, it's just an escape. He is not sad, lonely and most of all not embittered though, that is just an exaggeration. Now, the reason he bonds with the team is basically because they show up, which is admittedly a weaker aspect of the first movie. I like the character arcs in 2 a lot more.
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Aug 29, 2017 23:48
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Guy A. Person posted:He is not sad, lonely and most of all not embittered though, that is just an exaggeration. What's remarkable is that he's canonically none of those: a highly sensitive telepath touches him and is not at all upset, even though she should be able to sense his horrible upbringing. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 23:54
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What's remarkable that he's canonically none of those: a highly sensitive telepath touches him and is not at all upset, even though she should be able to sense his horrible upbringing. Except by that point he's moved on. That was the entire point of the first movie.
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Aug 29, 2017 23:55
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What's remarkable that he's canonically none of those: a highly sensitive telepath touches him and is not at all upset, even though she should be able to sense his horrible upbringing. You realize that she also senses nothing but uproarious laughter from Drax in that same scene, right? A character she later feels the emotions of again and feels his pain and sadness from losing his family. It's almost as if people feel different emotions at different times. Remarkable, even.
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Aug 29, 2017 23:58
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I mean, your best friends are usually made because you showed up somewhere, or they were just around.
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Aug 29, 2017 23:59
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CelticPredator posted:I mean, your best friends are usually made because you showed up somewhere, or they were just around. They were also probably the first people he met after leaving the Ravagers who were as in need of emotional connection as Quill was.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:01
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That isn't true since he was banging that red girl in his ship.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:03
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CelticPredator posted:That isn't true since he was banging that red girl in his ship. Yeah, but maybe Bereet's super well adjusted and not desperately in need of emotional support.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:06
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Roth posted:You realize that she also senses nothing but uproarious laughter from Drax in that same scene, right? A character she later feels the emotions of again and feels his pain and sadness from losing his family. Oh whoops, turns out I was conflating two scenes in my mind. My bad. But the discussion is about whether or not Quill is dysfunctionally sad, lonely, or embittered. Phylodox posted:Except by that point he's moved on. Well as Roth pointed out I misremembered those scenes. But in Vol 2 is he quite explicitly epxresses frustration about losing his mother and being raised by an rear end in a top hat like Yondo in he second movie, more than he ever did in the first. Here he actually expresses sadness, loneliness, and bitterness. But that doesn't make him dysfunctional. Being occasionally sad, lonely, or bitter isn't enough to make someone dysfunctional, they're just regular feelings everyone experiences. His actual dysfunction is that he's a thirtysomething that wants to be Han Solo, but this isn't treated as such in the story. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 00:12
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CelticPredator posted:I mean, your best friends are usually made because you showed up somewhere, or they were just around. Yea that's fair, plus they go through a shared experience together. Point conceded.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:17
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He's dysfunctional because he's unable to let go of his mother. The movie pretty clearly spells it out. The first scene with him on Morag is a direct contrast to what we're shown of him as a child to show us that he's become, as you admitted, callous and emotionally closed-off. This is done to a soundtrack of his dead mother's choosing. The fact that he forgot that the woman he'd had a one-night stand with even existed clearly hints at either an unwillingness or inability to form emotional bonds with others (again, certainly because of the loss of his mother). His attachment to his Walkman manifests as impulsive, violent possessiveness well beyond "valuing a memento". These are all explicit in the movie. You have to try and ignore or dismiss them.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:24
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Phylodox posted:He's dysfunctional because he's unable to let go of his mother. The movie pretty clearly spells it out. The first scene with him on Morag is a direct contrast to what we're shown of him as a child to show us that he's become, as you admitted, callous and emotionally closed-off. This is done to a soundtrack of his dead mother's choosing. The fact that he forgot that the woman he'd had a one-night stand with even existed clearly hints at either an unwillingness or inability to form emotional bonds with others (again, certainly because of the loss of his mother). His attachment to his Walkman manifests as impulsive, violent possessiveness well beyond "valuing a memento". These are all explicit in the movie. You have to try and ignore or dismiss them. This is opposite of what happens in the movie - at the end grabbing hold of his mother is an explicitly good thing to do. What you're missing is that none of those are really significant problems, especially in the context of the movie. You're claiming that having an emotionless one-night stand is a sign of him being dysfunctional, but are ignoring that he casually kills people on a mission to make money. (He doesn't know who Korath is, who Ronan is, or what they want beyond taking hold of the Orb. He's still ready and willing to kill to escape captivity and to make money.) BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 00:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is opposite of what happens in the movie - at the end grabbing hold of his mother is an explicitly good thing to do. You're misinterpreting it. Holding his mother's hand while she died was what Peter couldn't do as a child, and it's the beginning of his refusal to grow/mature/accept death. In the end, him taking his mother's hand represents him accepting her death and letting go of her. It's a neat juxtaposition, but you're stuck focusing on only what's happening onscreen rather than what it actually means. quote:What you're missing is that none of those are really significant problems, especially in the context of the movie. You're claiming that having an emotionless one-night stand is a sign of him being dysfunctional, but are ignoring that he casually kills people on a mission to make money. They're only insignificant if you choose to believe they're not. They form the crux of Quill's emotional arc.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:44
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Phylodox posted:In the end, him taking his mother's hand represents... letting go of her.  Phylodox posted:They're only insignificant if you choose to believe they're not. They form the crux of Quill's emotional arc. Consider this: why is the one-night stand more important than the fact that Quill casually killed two people, and tried to kill a third, in order to make money? Remember, at this point he doesn't know who Ronan is or what he does to prisoners. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 00:47
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So you're just choosing not to understand. Okay. quote:Consider this: why is the one-night stand more important than the fact that Quill casually killed two people, and tried to kill a third, in order to make money? Remember, at this point he doesn't know who Ronan is or what he does to prisoners. Because he doesn't want to be taken prisoner? Regardless of what Ronan in particular does, it's largely an unattractive proposition.
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Aug 30, 2017 00:58
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Phylodox posted:Because he doesn't want to be taken prisoner? Regardless of what Ronan in particular does, it's largely an unattractive proposition. Imagine that there's a thief. He knows that there's an item hidden in an abandoned building, and if he finds the item he can sell it for a pretty penny. He enters the building, finds the item, but then a bunch of armed men surprise him and take the item at gun-point. They then demand that the thief follow them so that they can ask him questions. In response, the thief shoots them dead, takes the item, and runs off. Then imagine that the thief had a one-night stand with a woman before all of happened. Imagine someone who witnessed all of this, and concluded that the one-night stand shows that the thief is emotionally dysfunctional, completely ignoring that he killed people in order to make money. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 06:05
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Is this your first time watching an action movie? Don't answer, the question is rhetorical. You're just going to keep ignoring what the film is obviously trying to convey in favour of...I don't even know what. Your own personal fan fiction?
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Aug 30, 2017 06:44
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Phylodox posted:Is this your first time watching an action movie? Don't answer, the question is rhetorical. You're just going to keep ignoring what the film is obviously trying to convey in favour of...I don't even know what. Your own personal fan fiction? I'm describing what happens on-screen. You on the other hand watched a movie about career killers coming together to form a vigilante group, and decided that them being remorseless killers is irrelevant to their characters. This leads to bizarre moments where you talk about the protagonist kicking rodents as being a sign of trauma, while ignoring that he kills sapient beings without a thought. You are right in that this is treated as irrelevant in the movie's value universe - which means that there's something demented about it that can't be explained with it just being an action movie. Quill's decision to kill people in order to make money is retroactively justified, as is his fantasy lifestyle as a space-adventurer. This would be fairly fertile soil for satire, but the writers never tackle this.  Chris Pratt expresses the character's surprise at having failed to kill a black man. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 07:24
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Dude, seriously, I've never seen someone flail around so strenuously trying to convince someone (yourself?) that good movie is really bad movie. You just keep popping up at random doing your whole "This movie is banal! Have I mentioned how banal this banal movie is? Banal!" schtick, then, if anyone actually engages with you and explains why you're wrong this time, you pivot around from argument to argument trying to make some point that only you understand. I guess it's that action movies' callous disregard for the lives of their minor antagonists is somehow unsupportable now? I guess meekly surrendering to people who very obviously mean you ill should be everyone's go-to move. Or completely forgetting someone you very recently had sex with even exists is totally normal, healthy behaviour? God, what kind of goon thinks that's unhealthy?!?
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Aug 30, 2017 07:35
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