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I don't think Deekin would call that 'wasted'. I'm looking forward to it.
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Aug 30, 2017 22:33
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Lemon-Lime posted:Not really. Neuromancer is about low-lives running a series of heists and backstabbing each other, not about a party of heavily-armed and -armoured killers treating corporate arcologies like D&D dungeons. Ultimately people want to be Molly and not Case, at least when you're 13. Certainly that was true for me, anyway. But yes, without that sense of desperation and frustration, it's probably not punk, cyber or otherwise. But something like Cyberpunk 2020 was a melange of influences and I'm not sure it quite knew how to present what it wanted to be system-wise. I mean, it credits Neuromancer, sure. But it also credits Robocop 2.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:03
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We all need to come together and admit that Shadowrun is bad and that we don't need to apologize for it. It's got a bad premise, bad rules, makes for bad narratives and is kinda racist. It's not the 90s anymore, we can all play Technoir or the Sprawl or Blades In The Dark and we don't have to have magical native american samurai orcs anymore.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:36
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fifth edition is a curse
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Aug 30, 2017 23:40
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rumble in the bunghole posted:We all need to come together and admit that Shadowrun is bad and that we don't need to apologize for it. It's got a bad premise, bad rules, makes for bad narratives and is kinda racist. It's not the 90s anymore, we can all play Technoir or the Sprawl or Blades In The Dark and we don't have to have magical native american samurai orcs anymore. 
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Aug 30, 2017 23:41
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Lord_Hambrose posted:It is super weird that Punk generally means "themed" rather than any anti establishment ideas. Airship Pirates, which is surprisingly self-aware about how letting Steampunk enthusiasts create their own ideal society (with time travel) gets everything hosed up horribly, so by default you're playing people living on the fringes of a Neo-victorian empire and rebelling against it by working as, well, Airship pirates. ..Too bad it uses the same system as Victoriana! (Also it credits Abney Park, and by all accounts the frontman for that band's a huge rear end in a top hat.) unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 23:44
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rumble in the bunghole posted:We all need to come together and admit that Shadowrun is bad and that we don't need to apologize for it. It's got a bad premise, bad rules, makes for bad narratives and is kinda racist. It's not the 90s anymore, we can all play Technoir or the Sprawl or Blades In The Dark and we don't have to have magical native american samurai orcs anymore.
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Aug 31, 2017 00:05
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:When someone says "Lovecraftian" they generally don't mean the Dream Cycle, same idea here. Anyone who could write good Dunsany-punk would be a goddamn idiot for spinning their wheels in this industry instead of making it big literally anywhere else. rumble in the bunghole posted:We all need to come together and admit that Shadowrun is bad and that we don't need to apologize for it. It's got a bad premise, bad rules, makes for bad narratives and is kinda racist. Sure, Shadowrun had its problems. But it also had TWO  16 bit console games, awesome action figures, and made "future D&D" a thing that would be ripped off in dozens of worse games.If there's no part of you that sees the joy in CEO dragons or mustering the party at an Occupy Wall Street rally instead of a tavern, I can't fill the gaps in your soul to convince you otherwise.
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Aug 31, 2017 00:40
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shadowrun didn't invent d&d-but-in-the-future
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Aug 31, 2017 00:43
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No, but it absolutely popularized it.
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Aug 31, 2017 00:53
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moths posted:Sure, Shadowrun had its problems. But it also had TWO Let's not forget Shadowrun Returns and the really great expansions for it, Hong Kong and Dragonfall. It's one of those settings that definitely has terrible parts (anything dealing with any kind of indigenous people, Japan, the actual game parts), it's definitely developed a unique flavor.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:20
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Are there any decent cyberpunk games that aren't story games? I like some crunch and am not a huge Fate or PbtA fan, which Technoir and Sprawl seem to be
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Aug 31, 2017 01:30
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Lemon-Lime posted:The good and worthwhile parts of cyberpunk aren't the parts about tooled-up cyber-assassins violently murdering people, they're the bits about two-bit drug addicts or struggling mothers getting involved in stuff that's five orders of magnitude larger than anything they could ever comprehend because they had to score or put food on the table this week. They're about desperate people trying to survive in a near-future dystopia, breaking the law and ending up in serious trouble because it was literally their only option to make ends meet. There is a blades in the dark hack for cyberpunk in the works, and at it's core it is a game about desperate people trying to get ahead in a lovely environment where they are the underdogs.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:48
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And it has magic!
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Aug 31, 2017 01:48
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alg posted:Are there any decent cyberpunk games that aren't story games? I like some crunch and am not a huge Fate or PbtA fan, which Technoir and Sprawl seem to be Technoir is neither Fate or PbtA.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:49
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It is on the rules-lite side of the spectrum, through
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Aug 31, 2017 01:57
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you can just run apoc world in a cyberpunk setting, there's nothing about it that won't work as long as society has basically broken down
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Aug 31, 2017 02:42
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Are CP2020's rules really that bad? I never got into it cause Shadowrun got me first. CP2020 should have had a line of franchise novels with cool covers. That's what hooked me.
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Aug 31, 2017 02:42
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Halloween Jack posted:Are CP2020's rules really that bad? I never got into it cause Shadowrun got me first. They're not so much good or bad as just "there". It's basically just a stat+skill+die roll system.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:01
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Halloween Jack posted:Are CP2020's rules really that bad? I never got into it cause Shadowrun got me first. Nah. The combat is antiquated and death-spiral-ey, how Humanity and cyberware work are a bit questionable, and it was the game that created the term "netrunner dilemma", but the actual rules are pretty simple and straightforward roll 1d10 + stat + skill vs difficulty. I never got into Shadowrun, because while I could dig cyberpunk, and I could even probably dig cyberpunk with magic, cyberpunk with D&D felt really hokey to me. Still does.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:08
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If I were going to run Shadowrun -- and this would be a big project and I probably wouldn't really be up to it, to be honest -- I'd run it as a hack of Unknown Armies.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:50
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Kobolds through the ages! In Chainmail, kobolds are literally never mentioned except in the phrase "Goblins and kobolds." They are exactly alike in all respects, and kobolds are never described. You could cut them entirely out of the book and it would make no difference. But sometimes, instead of goblins, you fight a thing called a kobold which is exactly like a goblin. In the first edition of D&D (specifically the Monsters & Treasure pamphlet), monsters are again treated exactly as Goblins, except weaker. There are slight differences between AD&D and the D&D Basic line in how kobolds are described, but they’re figuratively if not literally on the same page. AD&D describes kobolds and gives them two pieces of art, where they looks like dog-men with horns and scales instead of hair.   AD&D1e Monster Manual posted:The society of these creatures is tribal with war bands based on gens. The stronger tribes rule weaker ones. Kobolds are usually found in dank, dark places such as dismal overgrown forests or subterranean settings. They hate bright sunlight, not being able to see well in it, but their night vision is excellent, and they have infra-red vision which operates well up to 60'. Descriptions of goblins vary somewhat across the Basic line. In the 1977 D&D Basic Set, edited by Eric Holmes, kobolds are simply described as “dwarf-like” and as weaker versions of the already-weak goblins. One notable trait, which does not appear in any other edition, is their resistance to magic. Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set posted:These evil dwarf-like creatures behave much like goblins, but are less powerful. A chieftain fights like a gnoll, as does his bodyguard of 1-6. Kobolds are highly resistant to magic and get a +3 on all saving throw dice except dragon breath. They have infravision. The 1981 Basic Set, edited by Tom Moldvay, gives kobolds a brief description and an illustration by Erol Otus. This is where kobolds’ association with sneak attacks began (unless it was influenced by an early adventure module).  Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules posted:These small, evil dog-like men usually live underground. They have scaly rust-brown skin and no hair. They have well developed infravision (heat-sensing sight) to a 90' range. They prefer to attack by ambush. A kobold chieftain and 1-6 bodyguards live in the kobold lair. The chieftain has 9 hit points and fights as a 2 hit dice monster. The bodyguards each have 6 hit points and fight as 1 + 1 hit dice monsters. As long as the chieftain is alive, all kobolds with him have a morale of 8 rather than 6. Kobolds hate gnomes and will attack them on sight. Treasure type J is only found in encounters in the lair or in the wilderness. Kobolds are more prominent in the 1983 revision of the Basic Set, the famous “Red Box” edited by Frank Mentzer. Although they don’t get an iconic Larry Elmore illustration, encounters with kobolds are baked into the CYOA style adventure module that’s part of the Player’s Handbook. This deepens kobolds’ association with attacking by ambush: if the party isn’t careful, kobolds will rain arrows down on them. D&D Basic Rules posted:These small, evil doglike humanoids usually live underground in clans of 10 to 60 members. They have scaly, rust-brown skin no hair. They have well-developed infravision with a 90' range. They prefer to attack by ambush. A kobold chieftain and Id6 bodyguards live in the kobold lair. The chieftain has 9 hit points and fights as a 2 Hit Dice monster. The bodyguards each have 6 hit points and fight as 1 +1 Kobolds first become playable characters in the Basic Gazetteer #10, Orcs of Thar. It describes three kobold variants with slight variations in coloration, habitat, and temperament. Orcs of Thar posted:Kobolds are small, scaly creatures with short tails, various dog faces, and two small horns. When angry, they growl and bark like dogs, and wave their tails when happy. Their little horns are either light grey or ivory in color. The very last book of the Basic line, Aaron Allston’s 1990 Rules Cyclopedia, uses the same description as Mentzer's Red Box. The book also mentions kobolds using flaming oil and pit traps in a section on making combat encounters more interesting. My first encounter with kobolds was in AD&D: Pool of Radiance for the NES. You can find pictures of their appearance in the PC and Amiga versions of the game, where they look just like the AD&D Monster Manual entry. But in the NES version, they're furry little canine people.  Kobolds are actually one of the better detailed and more interesting races in the game. They seem to be spiteful and cruel by nature, but pitiful prone to being manipulated by powerful villains. There are a couple quests centered entirely on kobolds--one where you defend nomad camps from a kobold invasion, and another where you invade the kobolds' mountain lair and kill their king. There is also a memorable encounter where you find a large band of bedraggled kobolds who are slinking back home after a terrible defeat, and just want to be left alone. Really, the worst thing about fighting them is that they come in packs of a few dozen, leading to really long and repetitive fights. When AD&D 2nd Edition came out, kobolds got an update in appearance and description. Their description hovers between lizard, dog, and rat, and the art shows them as creepy bug-eyed brutes.  AD&D2e Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1 posted:Kobolds are a cowardly, sadistic race of short humanoids that vigorously contest the human and demi-human races for living space and food. They especially dislike gnomes and attack them on sight. The description and art were retained in the 1993 Complete Book of Humanoids. The same year, a new Monstrous Manual was released with the same description but a new illustration by Tony DiTerlizzi.  The boxed-set adventure Dragon Mountain was also published in '93. The idea of kobolds as uniquely deadly guerilla fighters probably originates in the "Tucker's Kobolds" editorial in Dragon #127 (1987), but I think this module really solidified it. There's a lengthy section on how kobolds are just as intelligent as humans and no more prone to throw their lives away for nothing, and so only attack when they have every advantage. More importantly, I believe it introduced the concept of kobolds as minions for dragons.  It was 3rd edition that made kobolds absolutely, definitely reptiles—their creature type is Humanoid (reptilian). It also made them distinct from goblinoids by sort-of collating the traits associated with them in previous editions—traps, eating people, and sadism.  D&D 3.5e Monster Manual posted:
D&D 4th edition builds on 3rd edition to give us kobolds as we think of them today: Small lizard-people who worship dragons--that's now front-and-center--and attack with traps and ambushes. There are also rules for kobolds as a playable race.  D&D 4e Monster Manual posted:KOBOLDS REVERE DRAGONS and tend to dwell in and around places where dragons are known to lair. They skulk in the darkness, hiding from stronger foes and swarming to overwhelm weaker ones. Kobolds are cowardly and usually flee once bloodied unless a strong leader is present. Kobolds like to set traps and ambushes. If they can’t get their enemies to walk into a trap, they try to sneak up as close as they can and then attack in a sudden rush. I don't think much of D&D 5th edition; I've described it as a simplified 3rd edition with a lot of pointless sops to nostalgia. The kobold entry in its Monster Manual is consistent with that, but the text is actually quite good!  D&D 5e Monster Manual posted:Kobolds are craven reptilian humanoids that worship evil dragons as demigods and serve them as minions and toadies. Kobolds inhabit dragons' lairs when they can but more commonly infest dungeons, gathering treasures and trinkets to add to their own tiny hoards. Their entry goes on to discuss how kobolds build tunnel warrens and line them with traps. It includes rules for "urds," rare winged kobolds that were introduced in AD&D. It mentions that kobolds are egg-layers, which was also established during the AD&D era, though I don't remember exactly where. And Kurtulmak, the evil kobold god that was introduced in Dragon #63 (1982). So what's interesting about kobolds? Frankly, I'm not terribly interested in the idea of kobolds as the minions of dragons. First, because anybody could do that. Second, and more importantly, it conflicts with their most interesting characteristics. In a thorough writeup in the Complete Book of Humanoids, it becomes clear that kobolds are defined by resentment. Any race of weak humanoid monsters could fight smarter, using traps and guerilla tactics. In most editions, absolutely nothing about the rules governing kobolds makes them suited to it, so why is it their schtick? They fight smarter because they have to. They're even weaker than goblins, and anyway, goblins are usually depicted as lackeys for orcs and more powerful goblins. (Kobolds have to go all the way up the chain to dragons just to find somebody to boss them around.) That said, they're complete assholes, seemingly by nature. They're aggressive when they've got the upper hand and utter cowards when they don't. They enjoy torture and often eat their victims. They dream of overthrowing the more powerful races, but they bitterly hate small humanoids who are more like them, like gnomes and sprites. Even their mythology has their patron god trapped under the earth because he was sent on an errand by a more powerful god, then tricked and trapped by Garl Glittergold. Remember that kid you felt sorry for because everybody, and I mean everybody picked on him? And then when you got to know him, he turned out to be a really spiteful little piece of poo poo who'd be a bully himself if he could manage it? And it was a chicken-and-the-egg question as to whether he's picked on because he's a poo poo or a poo poo because he's picked on? That's kobolds. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 04:12
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Halloween Jack posted:My first encounter with kobolds was in AD&D: Pool of Radiance for the NES. You can find pictures of their appearance in the PC and Amiga versions of the game, where they look just like the AD&D Monster Manual entry. But in the NES version, they're furry little canine people. relevant to my previous comments: pool of radiance was ported to the nes by a japanese developer. the same company also released it on a bunch of 8-bit personal computers that were mostly japan-specific, like the fm towns and sharp x68k.
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Aug 31, 2017 04:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If I were going to run Shadowrun -- and this would be a big project and I probably wouldn't really be up to it, to be honest -- I'd run it as a hack of Unknown Armies. I would run it in a hack of Fragged Empire, which is the popular thing right now, but I feel it's the best system for modern to future combat game like that. As much as I love Shadowrun, it was probably my favorite game as a teenager, it's not a game I would bring to the table anymore in its current form. It needs a lot of work and level of system knowledge and mastery that I don't want to commit to. There's also a lot of problematic stuff in the metaplot that is super 90's but not really acceptable today. Shadowrun tonally kind of throws off the whole cyberpunk theme with magic in my eyes. Cyberpunk is all about using technology to overcome adversity and your oppressors but you can have magic in this world and it's way more powerful than cybernetics. Why would you literally destroy your soul to get a robot arm when you can just train to be a magical martial artist? Adepts can still improve while a Street Samurai has to save up enough nu yen to buy a slightly better arm that may or may not take more of their soul. It's never sold the benefits of the technology it holds up as being amazing and more often than not, outside of nearly identical weapon blocks, it's all stuff that's a dead end relative to other options. As others have stated too, there's a large amount of tonal dissonance in Shadowrun and legacy bullshit that doesn't really have a good reason to be there anymore as it is, such as the Matrix. This is mostly because the writers are constantly at odds with making a believable mundane and technological future where magic exists and making the diehard fans happy. They really should be rebooting the game every edition but they're sticking with the 90's as gently caress, each edition advances the metaplot model, and it's not really keeping pace with the world we live in today. For more recent stuff, Catalyst stopped paying their freelance writers and had to pressgang in Battletech people, although that might not be the case anymore, and it really shows.
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Aug 31, 2017 04:39
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Shadowrun tonally kind of throws off the whole cyberpunk theme with magic in my eyes. Cyberpunk is all about using technology to overcome adversity and your oppressors but you can have magic in this world and it's way more powerful than cybernetics. I think that's putting much too optimistic a spin on traditional cyberpunk. I'm thinking of something like Dogfight. It's one of the earliest cyberpunk stories -- if I remember correctly it even predates Neuromancer -- and it's really not about heroically overcoming oppression; it's about a lowlife criminal obsessed with winning a pointless conflict, who's willing to torture the only person in his life more vulnerable than he is to do it. Even Case in Neuromancer and its sequels is less a revolutionary and more a pawn of much bigger, self-interested players, his talent for hacking is frequently compared to an addiction, and his happy ending is just finally giving up the cause and living a quiet life with his relatively boring, non-street samurai girlfriend. e: Dogfight was published a year after Neuromancer, my mistake. e2: Basically, the solution to "why would anyone use technology in Shadowrun when magic is so much better and doesn't eat your soul" is "make magic eat your soul too, obviously!" Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 04:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think that's putting much too optimistic a spin on traditional cyberpunk. I'm thinking of something like Dogfight. It's one of the earliest cyberpunk stories -- if I remember correctly it even predates Neuromancer -- and it's really not about heroically overcoming oppression; it's about a lowlife criminal obsessed with winning a pointless conflict, who's willing to torture the only person in his life more vulnerable than he is to do it. I probably should have clarified, the character is not overcoming them for some greater good. It's all about accomplishing what you want through technology by overcoming those things to meet your personal goals. Most cyberpunk characters, as you stated, are very selfish and amoral.
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Aug 31, 2017 04:56
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necromunda might be the most authentically cyberpunk game
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Aug 31, 2017 05:09
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I would run it in a hack of Fragged Empire, which is the popular thing right now, but I feel it's the best system for modern to future combat game like that. Because you can't "just train" to be a magical martial artist? Magic in Shadowrun isn't something you can just go take night classes for in your spare time, it's an innate gift some tiny fraction of the population possesses and then of that fraction only an even smaller fraction is a full fledged mage/shaman/whatever while everyone else is some sort of less diverse magical specialist. The reason you'd destroy your soul to get a robot arm and stick wires in your brain is because for most people magic is just another 1%er situation and you're in the 99%, and there's increasingly less room in the world for just plain normal people whether you're a criminal or a wageslave.
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Aug 31, 2017 05:10
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Being a native who's lived on in the Rez their whole life Shadowrun's in this weird place where I can recognize that all of the NAN content is kinda racist but also the NAN stuff is like 80% of the appeal of Shadowrun to me. Aggressively decolonizing the Americas with magic is rad as hell. Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 06:36
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Leperflesh posted:necromunda might be the most authentically cyberpunk game You know, that might very well be true. I've been considering trying to do a game design exercise to convert Payday: The Heist's mechanics to tabletop and run a tactical heist game that way to scratch the itch without having to write a six foot stack of house rules to make Shadowrun work.
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Aug 31, 2017 06:42
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Demon_Corsair posted:There is a blades in the dark hack for cyberpunk in the works, and at it's core it is a game about desperate people trying to get ahead in a lovely environment where they are the underdogs. Yes. Once it comes out (hopefully it ends up good! Scum & Villainy didn't quite work, IME) that'll bring the total number of good cyberpunk games to two.  Assuming it actually focuses on people and not just criminals, though. Cease to Hope posted:you can just run apoc world in a cyberpunk setting, there's nothing about it that won't work as long as society has basically broken down The problem with running straight AW as cyberpunk (I've done it) is that it lacks moves to model the law and breaking the law, which kind of puts a damper on things. The answer is to write custom moves, of course, I just never got around to that. The playbooks are also a little bit too competent - cyberpunk AW works fine when everyone is already a criminal and the wider society leaves the world they operate in alone, but doesn't cover ordinary people breaking the law. A proper PbtA cyberpunk hack would have a totally different set of basic/extended moves, and playbooks like the Addict (addicted to recreational drugs that let them Open Their Mind), the Veteran (needs money to maintain their cybernetics, or their body literally breaks down), the Hoodlum (small time criminal, in debt to nastier people), the Wageslave (has to fulfil obligations at work while also disguising some kind of fuckup there that would get them fired), etc. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 07:11
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Liquid Communism posted:You know, that might very well be true. I've been considering trying to do a game design exercise to convert Payday: The Heist's mechanics to tabletop and run a tactical heist game that way to scratch the itch without having to write a six foot stack of house rules to make Shadowrun work. I'm only half-joking. It's a game set in a dystopian future where actual punks fight it out over the scraps that filter down from the elites who live miles above them in obscene luxury. Of course, the game itself is just a skirmish combat game with a campaign mode (so surviving gang members can advance in abilities, get better equipment, be crippled by injuries, etc.) and not a RPG at all, but there's an accompanying body of fiction that has a pretty strong whiff of cyberpunkery. Warhammer 40k has its origins in 2000AD and Judge Dredd among other influences, and those sources are also filled with dystopian punk cyberfuture imagery and themes. Necromunda is the 40k game that focuses most clearly on that stuff.
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Aug 31, 2017 07:20
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Liquid Communism posted:You know, that might very well be true. I've been considering trying to do a game design exercise to convert Payday: The Heist's mechanics to tabletop and run a tactical heist game that way to scratch the itch without having to write a six foot stack of house rules to make Shadowrun work. When you do post it up. I'd look at Fragged Empire because it does players vs hordes pretty well.
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Aug 31, 2017 07:31
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Halloween Jack posted:The description and art were retained in the 1993 Complete Book of Humanoids. The same year, a new Monstrous Manual was released with the same description but a new illustration by Tony DiTerlizzi. This is the best one, incidentally. Shadowrun sits in a somewhat awkward spot because it is very "80's well meaning but not really" racist, but it's also still kinda the only game that actually bothers to COVER some of that ground. To quote a friend, "yeah, some of the poo poo my parents liked was racist against them, but it was still someone like them being in a movie." Fragged Empires is a great game for any kinda of modern->sci-fi setting that involves tactical combat built around a cover system. I'm not saying everything else is bad - not even close, it has a great skill system that's thematic instead of "robust," it's extremely clever how it utilizes "spending money" as a skill and keeps your general physical resources as a side stat, it has non-tactical combat for quick fights, etc, etc...but it's tactical combat system is sort of a crown jewel.
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Aug 31, 2017 09:43
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Yeah, I need to sit down with it. Picked it up on a whim a few months back then the game I grabbed it for fell apart.
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Aug 31, 2017 10:00
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Is Fragged Empires more or less crunchy than Savage Worlds?
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Aug 31, 2017 11:46
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Kai Tave posted:Because you can't "just train" to be a magical martial artist? Magic in Shadowrun isn't something you can just go take night classes for in your spare time, it's an innate gift some tiny fraction of the population possesses and then of that fraction only an even smaller fraction is a full fledged mage/shaman/whatever while everyone else is some sort of less diverse magical specialist. This is something I actually forgot about.  I was mostly looking at it from the angle of a player making a player character, which is as usually the 1% of the population.
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Aug 31, 2017 14:12
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I remember a Dungeon adventure involving a dragon and its popcorn minions, but given that it had armed them with parted-out globes from necklaces of missiles, I think it was more some bastard harkening back to Tucker than anything else. God. Those kobold fights in Pool of Radiance. The battle in their warren was epic, though I'm still not sure where that handful of trolls came from.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:28
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:This is something I actually forgot about. They don't do a lot with this that I can remember. Most magicians end up working for megacorps.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:34
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Lemon-Lime posted:Is Fragged Empires more or less crunchy than Savage Worlds? The main thing about the Fragged Empire system is that there was at least one person involved who actually knows about writing technical manuals. It's one of the best rulebook-as-reference products around.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:54
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