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So I've been reading this book on Deification from a Catholic perspective and I have to tell you guys I love the sources this guy uses (Church Fathers, modern Orthodox theologians) but his method is obnoxious. He is obsessed with demonstrating that Deification is essentially a Biblical teaching and not some kind of Hellenist addition. I guess because of my theology of religions I don't care if we were influenced by the culture Christianity encountered, that just makes Christianity Catholic.
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Aug 31, 2017 02:03
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Isn't Paul, like, the most important theologician in the church( or at least for his time)? I doubt he'd be so passionate about spreading the gospel to the world, if he was just a run of the mill narcissist, but as a christian you sort of have to believe that he isn't.
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Aug 31, 2017 06:18
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Tias posted:I doubt he'd be so passionate about spreading the gospel to the world, if he was just a run of the mill narcissist I have no horse in this race in particular, but in general: really? You don't see the appeal there, or the potential comparisons to hucksters and false prophets the world over?
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Aug 31, 2017 06:22
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That's why I said, -as a christian-. He really did a biblical(heh) job of empowering christians to spread and understand their faith, and I for one think he's a cool dude in many ways. I mean, go that route, and you may as well say Jesus was a fake, after all, he was just one of many guys walking around Jerusalem with a posse talking poo poo about the others and cautioning people to think about God.
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Aug 31, 2017 06:29
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My point isn't to cast aspersions on Paul or on Christ, only that there are lots of scams that benefit from widespread recruitment. If I remember correctly the CCC even makes the point that you can't reason your way to Christ's authenticity, only to the existence of God in general. e: or, given how Christianity tends to lean in pretty hard on the "God can and does make good out of evil," thing, that a fraud couldn't spread a divinely inspired message. 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 06:32
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Sure, you're right. That aside, I also think you can like Paul and still disagree with him. I mean, I'm evidently not too hot on the whole subjugation of women and queers thing - but perhaps he was what God had to use at the time, as seems to be the case a lot of times.
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Aug 31, 2017 06:39
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Josef bugman posted:Suffering often doesn't make people grow though, it just breaks them up into little pieces. How much of that style of idea is based on just making the "just world" hypothesis that much wider. For Christians suffering is a positive thing. Romans 5:3-5English Standard Version (ESV) 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
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Aug 31, 2017 06:47
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I think I mentioned previously but I'd appreciate prayers for my roommate and myself in our hurried move these next few days. I took a job teaching science at a Native American tribal college and will be doing outreach to the local high- and middle-schools which are struggling greatly. Personally I'm looking forward to the change of pace but it's a lot of work and a significant burden on my roomie. Pray for those in the way of Harvey, and everyone else first. But, any and all thoughts are appreciated as I move across country. There seems to be a magic threshold when you hit 30 and all of a sudden living near your parents and close family is very appealing  am I... nesting??
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Aug 31, 2017 08:38
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Losing Paul would mean losing First Corinthians 13, which, no.
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Aug 31, 2017 10:53
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Pellisworth posted:There seems to be a magic threshold when you hit 30 and all of a sudden living near your parents and close family is very appealing
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Aug 31, 2017 12:10
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Pellisworth posted:
If you have kids, being able to dump them with grandma for a weekend once in a while becomes an incredible value add.
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Aug 31, 2017 14:15
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I respect Paul as a teacher and a Godly man, and also take some comfort in the knowledge that being an extremely goony dude who was probably a pain in the rear end to be around is not incompatible with being Godly.
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Aug 31, 2017 14:27
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Pellisworth posted:I think I mentioned previously but I'd appreciate prayers for my roommate and myself in our hurried move these next few days. I took a job teaching science at a Native American tribal college and will be doing outreach to the local high- and middle-schools which are struggling greatly. Personally I'm looking forward to the change of pace but it's a lot of work and a significant burden on my roomie. I want to leave the united states and never return
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Aug 31, 2017 17:29
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docbeard posted:Losing Paul would mean losing First Corinthians 13, which, no. Btw where/when is the story in your av from?
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Aug 31, 2017 19:47
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StashAugustine posted:Btw where/when is the story in your av from? That's Dirk Willems, an Anabaptist martyr from the Netherlands in the 1500s, probably the most famous one. The scene depicted is of him turning back during an attempted escape from prison while running across a frozen lake to rescue the pursuing guard who'd fallen through the ice. This led to his being recaptured and eventually executed. The image is from the illustrated version of Martyr's Mirror, which is chock full of heartwarming stories like this one.
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Aug 31, 2017 19:54
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Pellisworth posted:I think I mentioned previously but I'd appreciate prayers for my roommate and myself in our hurried move these next few days. I took a job teaching science at a Native American tribal college and will be doing outreach to the local high- and middle-schools which are struggling greatly. Personally I'm looking forward to the change of pace but it's a lot of work and a significant burden on my roomie. I'll be burning the 4 winds incense for you and yours. If you get the time and space, I'd love to hear about the tribal college and the people there.
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Sep 1, 2017 10:55
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The Red Letter Christians don't explicitly reject Paul but their dislike of Paul is a good part of the reason why they call themselves Red Letter Christians (for those who don't know, the actual words of Jesus were printed in a red font in many KJV Bibles.)Tuxedo Catfish posted:I have no horse in this race in particular, but in general: really? You don't see the appeal there, or the potential comparisons to hucksters and false prophets the world over? I think most secular historians, who discount supernatural explanations for Paul's conversion, still agree that Paul had some sort of profound experience that caused him to convert. It doesn't really make any sense otherwise; Paul was in a fairly nice position of power in Judea and threw it all away to go become a poor traveling itinerant preacher/tentmaker committing some light treason against the empire.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:00
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The Phlegmatist posted:The Red Letter Christians don't explicitly reject Paul but their dislike of Paul is a good part of the reason why they call themselves Red Letter Christians (for those who don't know, the actual words of Jesus were printed in a red font in many KJV Bibles.) Paul is generally a lot more progressive than the KJV Christians want you to think. He makes for a lot of good regressive sound bites, but taken in context he's pretty good. It usually takes going back to the original Greek meaning of the words, and putting them in the context of 1st century Roman society, though, which is hard so most people don't do it. Plus it's a lot easier to quote the English version to confirm your biases. We recently studied this book in our Sunday School class, which was useful to a lot of people.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:14
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I'd agree that Paul was much more progressive than a lot of his detractors give him credit for when viewed in the lens of his time. He actually has a much better view towards women than some of the early church fathers, at least. The last group of people who started hating Paul were literally the Nazis though, so it's important to keep views of Paul limited to what he said in his time rather than trying to project modern ideologies onto the poor guy.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:03
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Deteriorata posted:It usually takes going back to the original Greek meaning of the words, and putting them in the context of 1st century Roman society, though, which is hard so most people don't do it. Plus it's a lot easier to quote the English version to confirm your biases. We recently studied this book in our Sunday School class, which was useful to a lot of people. Mostly I just tend to find that Jesus and Paul have a lot more in common than many people realize.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:52
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I apologize in advance for what is going to be a poor description, but maybe someone will have a clue what I'm talking about and it seemed the correct place. Years and years ago I watched some documentary discussing the afterlife views of various religions and at one point they got to (perhaps a particular sect, I don't recall) Christian beliefs and discussed this odd thing I hadn't heard before. Basically, the sorting system (? it was unclear) that puts you in heaven or hell doesn't always work and sometimes the heaven dudes go to hell. They showed this painting depicting I suppose a future time where Jesus would go down and rescue all those folks with his squad of angel buddies and I was wondering if anyone had a clue at all where this comes from. I really just want to find the painting itself, but I am also curious what the deal is with the situation described.
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Sep 5, 2017 00:13
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Synnr posted:I apologize in advance for what is going to be a poor description, but maybe someone will have a clue what I'm talking about and it seemed the correct place. It's probably a reference to the Harrowing of Hell, where Jesus is supposed to have traveled to Hell to rescue the virtuous souls who died before he came.
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Sep 5, 2017 00:17
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I believe that might be an early modern text, "The Gospell of the Ophthometriste, or the Day that Sainct Peter Was Deprieved of his Spectacles: A Merrie Farce Sponsored by the Honourable Guilde of Lens-Grinders."
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Sep 5, 2017 00:59
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Numerical Anxiety posted:I believe that might be an early modern text, "The Gospell of the Ophthometriste, or the Day that Sainct Peter Was Deprieved of his Spectacles: A Merrie Farce Sponsored by the Honourable Guilde of Lens-Grinders." Ahh yes, I remember the monologue delivered to Mosest, the greatest prophet, as he was harangued the Burning Brush.
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Sep 5, 2017 02:29
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I like how the Trumparyans have nothing to say about divorce, multiple instances of
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Sep 5, 2017 14:08
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Please keep Florida in your prayers, goons.  It's still unclear where exactly Irma is going to go, but it's now a category 5 and barreling straight for us. I'm strongly considering evacuating.
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Sep 5, 2017 15:50
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Maybe you should, the thread can't afford losing you. Also, hasn't there been an Irma like 20 years ago?
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Sep 5, 2017 16:02
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JcDent posted:Maybe you should, the thread can't afford losing you.
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Sep 5, 2017 16:35
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HEY GAIL posted:They only retire the names of the biggest ones: Andrew, Katrina. They will probably retire Harvey. Unless Irma changes dramatically, it will probably also be retired. I've lived through plenty of hurricanes before, but not a category 5 since Andrew and one of Irma's possible paths has me square in the barrel. Trying very hard to not panic.
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Sep 5, 2017 18:43
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Cythereal posted:Unless Irma changes dramatically, it will probably also be retired. I've lived through plenty of hurricanes before, but not a category 5 since Andrew and one of Irma's possible paths has me square in the barrel. Trying very hard to not panic. Hey, real talk if you can afford to skip town please do it, there are well founded speculations that this storm could be a Cat 5 like there's never been a Cat 5, and I know I speak for all of us when I say we want you to be safe.
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Sep 5, 2017 19:07
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Hey, real talk if you can afford to skip town please do it, there are well founded speculations that this storm could be a Cat 5 like there's never been a Cat 5, and I know I speak for all of us when I say we want you to be safe. I am. I'm leaving for the Gulf coast tomorrow anyhow for a job interview near where my parents live, and at this rate I'll be taking a bunch of extra clothes, books, and my computer with me. And yeah, Irma's up to 185 mph winds. If the hurricane categories went beyond 5, then going by progression of wind speeds, Irma would be a category 6.
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Sep 5, 2017 19:19
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Hope you get out in time to stay safe and sound!
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Sep 5, 2017 20:29
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Well. It's going to depend on where Irma ends up hitting. If it hits the Gulf coast, I'll be staying put and my family from the Gulf will be staying with me. Hard to tell at the moment. Hurricanes are infamously hard to predict. Thanks for the well wishes, folks. 
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Sep 5, 2017 20:41
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Your situation makes me think about what's done beyond thoughts and prayers. I'm on the other end of the country with no practical way of providing non-monetary aid to the disaster-struck people along the gulf and those still in danger. But what I can do is aspire to be an honest and decent citizen at every moment. With my fellow Americans, our day-to-day lives are connected in ways that remain largely invisible to us. Despite the vast distances of country, we all share in this country's fiscal house. And so I have a responsibility over my small portion of our commonwealth, so that it's willing and able to prepare for disaster, avert it when possible, and recover when it happens. The responsibility to act and believe uncynically is with me at every moment. I owe aid to people of other nations, too. Even though I don't have any say in how they manage their fiscal house, I'm still called to provide what aid and comfort that I can. I wish you and your neighbors well!
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Sep 6, 2017 11:24
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Current tracks have it pulling further and further east, though hurricanes being hurricanes it's still to early to say for sure. If I disappear for a while from this thread, I've evacuated.
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Sep 6, 2017 14:20
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Cythereal posted:Current tracks have it pulling further and further east, though hurricanes being hurricanes it's still to early to say for sure.
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Sep 6, 2017 17:20
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My parish put out an alert that they're still holding Mass on Sunday. What does Canon Law say when the consecrated host is picked up by hurricane force winds and transported to the Wonderful World of Oz.
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Sep 6, 2017 23:20
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The Phlegmatist posted:My parish put out an alert that they're still holding Mass on Sunday. You tap your gaudy lace slippers together three times while saying "there's no place like Rome" then consume the host. The host may be of a different color.
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Sep 6, 2017 23:46
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Pellisworth posted:You tap your gaudy lace slippers together three times while saying "there's no place like Rome" then consume the host. The host may be of a different color. 
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Sep 7, 2017 00:17
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The Phlegmatist posted:
Counterpoint: Everything listed above applies equally to David Icke as well as it does to Paul. David Icke was a fairly successful footballer/sportscaster (with some political aspirations via the Green Party) who threw his entire career away (willingly and knowingly) to become a poor traveling itinerant preacher- after having what he describes as a supernatural conversion. (He went to some stone rings in Peru and had a vision) In similar fashion to Pauls writing, Icke further bases his appeal around a pointed attack on the existing social power structure (which he claims is covertly controlled by non-human reptilian aliens/"powers and principalities") as well as a declaration that the world after this one is the more important one. I mean after Icke threw away his career on live television (he declared that we were "all sons of God" on The Wogan Show) he was basically broke and living in no small part off of charity for years before his career as a conspiracy theorist took off. Mind you I don't have a particular horse in this race, I just thought the similarities between Icke and Paul were interesting in this context. From a secular perspective Icke could be argued to be a modern manifestation of the same psychological forces that produced Paul. Hamelekim posted:For Christians suffering is a positive thing. I wanted to respond to this. As something of a modern Deist I have a couple of problems with this verse; although not with its intended meaning per se so much as a critique of the consequences of the way it has traditionally been interpreted in American Christianity. Specifically this verse (among others) is often used to justify the "suffering is good for the soul" attitude that is highly prevalent in American Christianity, particularly with an aim towards getting moderate Christians to turn a blind eye towards what radicalized Christians are doing to vulnerable populations. I personally think that the way that this verse is often taught in American Christianity has enabled some pretty tremendous abuse via providing an easy justification for moderate Christians to avert their gaze from the suffering their more radicalized brethren are causing in the name of Christ. Also on a human level I would caution against the limitations of the sentiment expressed in this verse- everyone (I do mean everyone) has a limit to how much suffering they can experience before their mind simply shuts down. Willpower can take you pretty far, but I think that there are hard limits to how far even the strongest of wills can carry an individual. Past a certain amount of suffering (that point can vary considerably from individual to individual) I believe that any of us would simply be psychologically crushed into nothingness.
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Sep 7, 2017 00:58
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