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I expect Vermintide 2 to have a lot of confusingly weird and obviously bad problems on release that turns off a lot of people, and then get patched into being good so you spend time trying to convince people that the game is good now really, because that's basically every release I've seen out of Fatshark. I got the red sword and dagger for the elf and so that's it, that's every single character with a Cata-ready loadout. Just in time for the sequel to be announced. 
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Aug 31, 2017 19:22
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There's a huge number of things that could go wrong. They could waste resources on crap like pvp, the potential new player characters could be less well-written and well-acted than the current ones, the balance could be bad and promote an unfun "meta," the inevitable collection of bugs that will be associated with every new special enemy could skew less toward the hilarious (invisible gutter bodies that scream when stabbed) and more toward the horrible (packmasters hooking players through walls), the optimization could be terrible, whatever form of progression they have could be extremely grindy, etc. Fatshark consistently made vermintide better with every patch and there was a big jump in DLC quality from schleusselschloss to drachenfels to karak, so I have confidence that they'll stay on the right track, but there are absolutely risks here. To my knowledge vermintide is the first case fatshark has ever had where they've made a genuinely great and successful game and gone on to make a sequel, so who knows what they'll do. I also have some reservations about the community with how goddamn weird and toxic some people have become surrounding modding/hacking the game, and I have a feeling those people are going to be doing their best to break the game wide open the instant it's released, and not in a good way. The community seemed to get worse in general around Q&C for whatever reason and has stayed that way. I'll be playing with friends as much as possible for sure.
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Aug 31, 2017 20:52
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Digirat posted:There's a huge number of things that could go wrong. They could waste resources on crap like pvp, A versus mode could actually be really fun though?
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Aug 31, 2017 20:57
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there's a hell of a lot of ways they could gently caress things up, half of those coming from suggestions from idiots on reddit or whatever. but, at the very least, they have the first game under their belt and have that to go off of instead of starting from scratch and taking a couple years to get everything to a state where it feels pretty solid in general no matter what you use.
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Aug 31, 2017 20:58
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The fact that every major patch improved Vermintide makes me pretty hopeful they'll do well on 2.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:00
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BadLlama posted:A versus mode could actually be really fun though? 'could' is the operative word. there's a reason the versus mode on left 4 dead bottomed out before the campaign did. for every genuinely fun and cool level in l4d versus there were probably a dozen that were spoiled by weird bugs, lovely people, dumb meta, or a combination thereof. i'd much rather fatshark recognize that such a thing would be practically impossible to get right and simply save their strength for something that they CAN get right.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:03
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BadLlama posted:A versus mode could actually be really fun though? jesus god in heaven no! no, no no no no. All the jank and buggyness this game took two years to overcome and still hasn't entirely. All the instant deaths on black powder or that final drop on wizard's tower. All the incredibly bullshit runner and packmaster physics and lag and rats clipping through your block to hit you from inside your own body. All of the clueless cancerous pubbies. And to this mix you want to introduce adversarial competition? I mean yeah I can imagine it being fun in the same way I can imagine riding a unicorn with the head of Louie C.K. Doesn't mean its feasible or a desirable end goal.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:05
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Vermintide's melee combat is amazing for killing hordes of enemies but I don't think it would work very well for PVP in the first place.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:07
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i absolutely want them to focus on the core gameplay before trying to shoehorn in some halfbaked pvp thing please, for the love of god
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Aug 31, 2017 21:07
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Coolguye posted:'could' is the operative word. there's a reason the versus mode on left 4 dead bottomed out before the campaign did. for every genuinely fun and cool level in l4d versus there were probably a dozen that were spoiled by weird bugs, lovely people, dumb meta, or a combination thereof. L4D was one of the funnest MP games I played when it came out and this exact thing made me stop playing it. Ain't nothing like a group of buddies who aren't quite good enough to crank out maps on Extreme but tired of SP firing up versus and getting wrecked repeatedly by 4stacks on teamspeak who have done nothing but eat, sleep, poo poo, and play L4D since release and know every single speedrunning trick and have their own jargon to describe every infected setup spot on every map in the game. Vermintide is an exercise in loot and synergizing characters and smacking rats in good company. That's enough. Not every game needs to be a thousand hour esports timesink. Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 21:09
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I am here to kill rat, not kill as rat.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:10
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Versus mode was huge fun
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Aug 31, 2017 21:11
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There is also a certain bonding experience that comes from treating the game as the adversary and breaking it, and if you don't know what I'm talking about play a round with lunethex and then you will.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:13
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P sure it will be VERMINTIDE 2 - 6 maps, BUY SEASON PASS NOW FOR 2 MORE EVENTUALLY
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Aug 31, 2017 21:13
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duckfarts posted:P sure it will be i hope it hass lootboxes 
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Aug 31, 2017 21:15
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BadLlama posted:A versus mode could actually be really fun though? L4D1 versus was the best type of competitive multiplayer I'd played in a long time (maybe ever) and if they could somehow mirror that with vermintide 2 I'd be incredibly impressed. They won't though, and they shouldn't try. For real, L4D1 versus was about 9 billion times better than L4D2 but everyone talks poo poo about versus because of L4D2.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:15
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jokes posted:For real, L4D1 versus was about 9 billion times better than L4D2 but everyone talks poo poo about versus because of L4D2.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:17
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jokes posted:L4D1 versus was the best type of competitive multiplayer I'd played in a long time (maybe ever) and if they could somehow mirror that with vermintide 2 I'd be incredibly impressed. They won't though, and they shouldn't try. What were the differences? I only played versus in the first game
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Aug 31, 2017 21:19
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L4D co-op was a bunch of friends--or randos who often became friends by the end of the map--making the best use of limited resources. L4D versus was survivors speedrunning and winning (or getting real real mad at the survivor who didn't know how to speedrun thus making the team lose) in order to minimize the window of coordinated infected ambushes, while the infected tried not to rip on each other for not being in position in time or the hunter whiffing a 25 point pounce or the boomer only puking on one survivor etc. L4D2 iterated on this versus experience by adding infected types that had some really weird physics (i'm the charger who can go through walls but stops cold on stairs.) I would not be playing Vermintide today if they went for adversarial to pad out the game instead of fleshing out asymmetric co-op.
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Aug 31, 2017 21:25
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Enjoy posted:What were the differences? I only played versus in the first game The hit detection was super loving weird and the broader special infected pool meant with a dice roll you could get screwed out of a comp that could meaningfully impede the survivors. e; also the SI were more dependant on hit detection overall with the new additions, so whereas in 1 it was only The Weird Zen Of The Hunter Pounce, suddenly the jockey, hunter, charger etc were all their own flavor of buggy and terrible Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 21:26
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Coolguye posted:neither were very good, you just remember l4d1 fondly because it was the first of its kind and the novelty bred good experiences I mean we are talking opinions here but I think your opinoin is wrong. Both L4d and L4d2 versus modes were incredibly fun. Different people like different things. Vermintide at its core is a co-op pve game, but if they could get a versus mode in it without sacrificing their main purpose then why not? Hell, they can even contract that part out to some other company and its your choice if you want to play it or not. L4d versus was not a solo friendly game and if you played it that way I imagine it was probably the most terrible experience of your life. It bums me out that we have only got some lovely 4v1 games since l4d. BadLlama fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 22:25
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In most games I hate pvp and enjoy co-op, and every player who enjoys vermintide is at least in the latter category. If fatshark wants to keep the same target audience as the first game, they just need to focus on making a fun co-op game like they did the first time. Spending resources on pvp will make the co-op worse than if they focused on that alone. So adding pvp would be opening the game up to a broader target audience (and as someone who's loving the co-op mode that was just added to titanfall 2, I will concede the value of this) but it would also make a worse experience for their existing target audience. The thing is vermintide has always had a small community and for the game to be successful, fatshark would be best off focusing on what they know their existing community enjoys: fun with friends, rat dudes, and bugs There's a number of very serious roadblocks to making pvp work in vermintide as it stands but most people already seem to agree that it's a dumb idea so no need to go into that.
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Aug 31, 2017 22:43
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Vermintide is a game that I'm satisfied with. I don't feel like it's missing anything for a full experience. Xcom 1 for example I felt needed more weapon and class variety, or total Warhammer needed more unique mechanics for each race, and to add Skaven and tomb Kings. Vermintide doesn't really feel lacking in anyway that a sequel feels necessary. That said, holy Sigmar am I  for this sequel.As for the PvP debate, I think adding it is fine so long as they don't divert any time, money, or workers to that project. L4D was built to be a PvP game vermintide wasn't. Even though we know nothing about V2, looking at the first one gives me the strong impression that a PvP mode would have been a horrible add-on. I really really hope Fatshark never tries does it because the risk of ruining the game is too much for the reward of giving L4D players one more game to moan about not being as good as L4D.
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Aug 31, 2017 22:52
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I have a massive tl;dr post about Versus somewhere on the Steam board. Hard to sum up but the balance of the gameplay is fragile as gently caress. Giving players the ability to throw poison globes wherever they want lets them shut down the many tight corridors players have to go into. Do you allow trinkets? Which ones then? If you disallow any you're taking away people's earnings unfairly. If you allow trinkets, nerf them then? Why wear some then? My two key points about how unfair it would be for the heroes if versus users could use Stormvermin, and globe rats and ratling gunners. The former's cleave attack can instant kill on Cata, and if they are always aware of where players are they just stand around corners and time it. Nothing you can do. Blocking everywhere you go is bullshit and not a solution. Globe rat and ratling gunner can lock down entire hallways and passages, ensuring players would never get through unscathed. Ultimately, Versus can't work in Vermintide. It just can't. You would be making so many sacrifices and going back and forth on balance nobody would be happy. And why play it? Just to play it? The game is is an all-or-nothing reward. You die, you lose everything, and the maps are long. Why make it harder to get items and loot just because you can kill someone else who is playing a rat? What would the reward be for heroes? For creatures? What if the versus player is an Ogre? there are so many gamey attacks people can use to demolish the heroes. Imagine an ogre jumping around forever, and his team shows up. You keep knocking players around and they are completely defenseless. It can't work, it's the most unnecessary addition to this game. And if it was added, and this point can be made only because it's Fatshark, what would they gently caress up anywhere else for it? But hey, if they think they have an idea of how to do it I'm all ears, but I guarantee there will be sacrifices very few people will want to make just to participate. edit: Oh yeah. I guarantee a lot of rage if players were packing their Trueflight weapons too. Better ban those like it's Super Smash Bros! quote:This game is not designed for Versus play period. A Stormvermin player could easily ruin the game if they follow the typical design of "players are always visible" to help creature players find them. They can just hide around corners in the narrow halls and overhead swing as they come around, which is massive damage or an instant kill on Cataclysm, and its designed by nature to hit everyone if they are clustered. Which they will be. Stormvermin don't make noticeable sounds at all outside of their spotting player quips. What if a Stormvermin player just shoves the entire time? While being pushed a player slides around on ice and sometimes can't do anything to attack back. Lunethex fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 22:55
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Sazabi posted:As for the PvP debate, I think adding it is fine so long as they don't divert any time, money, or workers to that project. In other words, pvp is fine as long as it takes no time or money to make, which is literally impossible. Make no mistake, there is no way to add a non-horrible pvp mode to a game like this without a serious investment of resources. Lunethex just laid out some good reasons why it would be a massive effort to make it work with vermintide's existing design, and I guess I'll add my reasons to that when I'm not phoneposting Owl Inspector fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 23:02
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Digirat posted:I guess I'll add my reasons to that when I'm not phoneposting I mean you can, but really why? We are just talking about a really fun game on a dead gay irrelevant forum and one poster just thinks a versus mode in vermintide would be fun because killing hummies and dwarfs as a rat is cool.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:05
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You will kill no humies or dwarfs as a rat because both the humie and the dwarf are equipped with hitscan guns that instakill anything they hit, as that weapon was designed with AI and not players in mind.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:08
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I would like to draw a comparison to another game, based on Digirat's latest here, that will serve as a fine example of Vermintide Versus. It's called Dead by Daylight...Stay a while and listen!
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Aug 31, 2017 23:11
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Hm the asymmetric playstyles of hitscan weapons vs area denial weapons, you guys are selling versus mode really well
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Aug 31, 2017 23:16
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Are we saying you can't have a pvp game that contains an instant kill hitscan weapon?
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Aug 31, 2017 23:17
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I still can't believe how much I've enjoyed vermintide. It's one of the best value deals I've bought in a long time
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Aug 31, 2017 23:18
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Arcsquad12 posted:I still can't believe how much I've enjoyed vermintide. It's one of the best value deals I've bought in a long time Same.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:21
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BadLlama posted:Are we saying you can't have a pvp game that contains an instant kill hitscan weapon? No?
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Aug 31, 2017 23:37
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BadLlama posted:I mean we are talking opinions here but I think your opinoin is wrong. Both L4d and L4d2 versus modes were incredibly fun. Different people like different things. Vermintide at its core is a co-op pve game, but if they could get a versus mode in it without sacrificing their main purpose then why not? Hell, they can even contract that part out to some other company and its your choice if you want to play it or not. i played it both ways. i had a lot of fun. i have dozens of hours playing both. they are bad. l4d versus was poorly designed for an absolute scad of reasons that people have already expounded on and if you honestly need more proof just go look at the steam forum bitching; the way you can tell it's legitimate is that over half of the bitch posts are done in readable sentences and they all present problems with no quick or easy solution; they require fundamental changes to the underlying rule structure that inevitably swing the pendulum one way and the other in an unending quest to find a happy medium that doesn't exist. it is the story of dozens upon dozens of bad pvp games that came before l4d. the difference is that l4d was new, novel, and creative enough that people could have a lot of fun exploring the new rulesets available to them regardless. and that's fine. it's the reason we had fun, and lots of it. it also explains - and largely excuses - the massive problems that arose. but what it doesn't justify is ignoring those problems because it was your first time. this isn't your first girlfriend. there's a reason there hasn't been another honest stab at a l4d style versus mode since l4d2 got forgotten, and that's because the ruleset is hosed up and carries tons of problems that nobody's figured out yet. also yes lune i saw the dead by dudelight reference, that game is insanely bad and more or less exists to this day as a testament to the power of the skinner box effect.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:38
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I've had this for a while and I remembered once I saw it on sale. I should probably play it, crushing rat skulls sounds fun. So how useless will I be as a scrub with starter equipment, and what do I need to know?
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Aug 31, 2017 23:39
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Coolguye posted:steam forum lol nice trick.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:42
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then go search even the old archives of l4d threads on this dead gay comedy forum. people had lots of really fundamental complaints and were able to articulate them both consistently and clearly - but nobody had any answers to how they should be addressed. even today, you can trivially find l4d2 campaign games going on. hell, i even met a girl i later dated for a while randoming around in l4d2 campaigns earlier this year - campaign is still poppin'. for versus games you need to be on at a specific time and preferably bring a full crew. why? the only reasonable answer is that the game is not good and people moved away from it - because it is not good.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:46
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dromal phrenia posted:I've had this for a while and I remembered once I saw it on sale. I should probably play it, crushing rat skulls sounds fun. starter equipment is a lot worse than a well statted orange but gear is only about 10% of a player's effectiveness. the other 90% is what's between your ears. watch the combat basics video in the series lune and i made here and that will get you all you need to know to get your rat on initially. you're of course welcome to watch the entire series but it's not required. the combat basics video will download everything you critically need to know.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:49
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I mean, its ranked #45 right now, and is almost a decade old? Is it really that bad or do you just not like it? It has more players than many newer games? Something isn't adding up here. I wonder what it is.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:49
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BadLlama posted:I mean, its ranked #45 right now, and is almost a decade old? Is it really that bad or do you just not like it? It has more players than many newer games? Something isn't adding up here. I wonder what it is. i'd say it's more a reading problem than a math problem because you clearly can't read what's being posted or, more probably, you're choosing not to. whatever, man, let it remain on a pedestal in your own mind, not my delusion.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:55
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